:banana:
Still a lot to prove in my opinion, but good news just the same

I very much hope that FEC (the old Florida East Coast) has the opportunity to follow through with this, even with an up front subsidy of "reasonable" size.

Despite my very strong belief in steel rail transportation, I have not seen well designed, well built out, cost effective passenger transportation systems on any scale built in the US. From light rail to high speed rail, the nature of the "beast" involving multiple political jurisdictions, long term time scales to get financing after malodorous environmental impact statements inevitably produces local hucksterism of the worst sort.

A) Routes of light rail built in the US, from San Diego on, reflect real estate development more than public need on almost all size scales. This, IMO, is a function of the length of time required from the "idea" to the build out, and, the huge number of elected public officials soliciting funds for re-election along potential ROWs. Consequently, downtown station interfaces tend to be designed PRIMARILY to serve local real estate owners. Two classic examples: Sacramento and Denver, both of which reflect the will of one man selling his schemes to smaller players under the dream of a "great downtown." * In both cases, the potential for fast and efficient public transportation through the downtown core has been ruined.

B) Commuter rail. Post war commuter rail tends to be a hybrid with public agency train operators running on privately owned track (NYC, Boston, and, Philly are different in this regard). The right-of-ways tend to be used to some extent by freight operations, and, are of at least pre-WWII vintage. Outside of NYC, Chicago, Washington, and, Boston, where commuter trains have recently been installed, the downtown station interface tends to be poor designed for train movement and well designed for enhancing adjacent real estate values.

C) High speed rail. Pure political trash with every Tom, Dick, and, Harry, having their hands into the cookie jar. Despite the single digit billions of dollars** spent on designing, politicizing, and, advertising the idea, only one moderately high speed rail (MHSR) is actually being built, and, this one on existing, privately owned ROW.

I believe that, if FEC can keep multi-jurisdictional politics to a minimum, FEC could run a very decent passenger operation, with speeds higher than anything operating in the US during the "Golden Era" for about 20% of the price that governments could do it (and I am being generous to the government part of the equation here).

I wish them the best, and, will be an active supporter of FEC's effort.

Now, if the class I railroads find that the FEC idea, assuming it is built out, can bring profits to the bottom line by improving their track infrastructure, we might see some pretty nice passenger operations in the US around 2050.

*despite the relative decline of US downtowns since WWII, the relative power of central business districts politically remains high compared to suburban jurisdictional entities. At the very least, urban core politicians have the power to quash an entire project.

**Using the figure $5,000,000,000, and discounting facility and operating expenses, at $100,000 per year per employee, we are talking about 50,000 person years of high quality employment with very little concrete having been one. I am sure the actual figure is considerably higher.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/0...o-orlando.html

http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/...xEdu.St.56.jpg

Hourly departures? Even commuter rail can't do that.

Cool news about SOM. We should get something dramatic. I'm skeptical that the Cocoa Beach-Orlando line can be built in less than 2 years, but even at 3 or 4 years down the road it's still quite fast.

I dunno if FEC's experience is applicable elsewhere. The bread and butter of the Class Is is slow, lumbering freight traffic hauling heavy goods in bulk (coal, steel, grain, autos, etc). FEC hauls largely lightweight, high value cargo like produce, parcels, etc that can travel at the same average speed as a passenger train.

FEC's major income-earning sources are its rock (limestone) and intermodal trains.

I understand that in order to keep its intermodal trains running at reasonable paces, the FEC just runs all its trains (including coal, limestone, other non-time-sensitive shipments) at 50mph+ to prevent delays, which is a somewhat unique practice in the railroad industry. Hence why passenger service is possible on its mainline.

Ah, wasn't aware of that.

IIRC the intermodal trains are relatively light, with lots of airspace in the packaging of goods and such. Limestone is pretty heavy but I don't know how long the trains are or how frequently they run. It's not a time-sensitive cargo so it can probably be run at night. 12am-6am should be enough time for rock trains to travel the length of the Miami-Cocoa segment.

Hopefully it can be upgraded to have 200+ MPH trains on it afterwards, because the current top speed of 100 MPH would barely compete with highway driving, let alone replace short range air travel which high speed rail ideally is supposed to do.

Speed is only one way high- (or lets call this particular system medium-) speed trains compete with cars and airplanes. I personally prefer rail travel for its convenience. More frequent, city center to city center service that is more frequent and less hassle than flying, and a lot more relaxing and less stressful than driving.

The speeds and frequencies this project is planning is and will be very competitive. It will be very interesting to see what ridership is like after two or three years once people have adjusted their lives to the train's convenience. My guess is that lots of Floridians will beg for more and be willing to publically fund it.

Mark, I predict this will be a roaring success. You need to remember that in addition to business demand between these two metros, there are 50 million + tourists annually that travel between Orlando & Miami. MOST flights operate between ORL & Ft. Lauderdale, which really isn't convenient for business travelers. Considering check-in time, security check points, etc, this will be totally competitive to flying. The traffic on the Turnpike &/or I-95 can be totally jammed (and the Turnpike is considered pricey to a lot of people).

These folks know what they are doing, in my opinion - and they happen to have the deep pockets to pull it off.

they also own the track and real estate
I think it will start up very fast because its in there benefit
I support obama & democrats , but all the republicans will say that
the private sector is so much better at this stuff then the govt.
just like france,japan,spain,china,england,germany

England is probably not the best example to use as British Rail was in fact privatized in the 1990's. As for Britain's new HS2 program, I don't know what the private-public partnership entails specifically about what the government is directly funding, but I am making the assumption that the government has no intention of having state operation of the services ala France, Spain, Germany, China and to a slightly lesser extent Japan.

But yeah, I get the gist of your sarcasm.

cant wait to see what the miami downtown station will look like.
i have been there many times to the old miami heat arena and the
new miami heat arena.
also the metro rail is nearby.
the new science museum AND new art museum are both
being bult also.

I recently made the trip between Orlando & Miami and I followed the same route that this planned FEC line does. It took me nearly 5 hours including stops for food & gas. I would gladly use this if built. The Amtrak route takes so long between both cities because it stops at so many cities & towns on the way up through central Florida.
Anyways nodody I know flies between Miami & Orlando unless it's unless it's urgent or you are a tourist.
The biggest issue I see is building the rail line from Cocoa to Orlando and then how to get around Orlando since the bus service is mediocre at best.

Its not the size of the markets that makes me worried. It is their desire to pay enough to cover costs that I worry about. There aren't a lot of examples to use when comparing costs but using Amtrak costs and then giving FEC an efficiency bonus, I come up with somewhere around $40-$55 one way tickets between Miami and Orlando to cover operations costs. That includes high load factors. Toss on that $1 billion dollars in investment and we are talking about pretty high prices.

And lets not pretend that they have all the money in the world. In 2007, FECI was sold to Fortress for $3.5 billion dollars. So $1 billion is almost a third of what the company is worth. And Fortress itself makes $250-300 million net income in a year on $47 billion in assets managed. This is a huge investment for them, certainly they can afford $1 billion dollars but can they continue to pump money in to build the business or will they cut and run if things go poorly at the beginning.

I think it's been touched on here previously, but FECI is a major developer in Florida. The synergies between their development arm and transportation arm can't be overlooked. They could theoretically stand to lose money on the train if they're making it up selling condos or industrial space.

Also, don't be surprised if FEC uses this new rail line to open themselves up to the Orlando market for freight service. The new line will get them on the same track used to get coal unit trains to the Staton Energy Center and industrial zoned property on the southside of the airport. Also, as a part of the Sunrail deal, the State purchased all of the track in Orlando from CSX. I predict FEC will make a killing on this. However, that profit will come in the form of real estate development and new freight customers.

Exactly, Lakelander. Their real estate holdings and potential development rights alone could very well actually subsidize any possible losses on the passenger rail side, but this sounds like a win-win all the way. The nine acres of raw land in the heart of Miami that they already own could be nothing less than a huge goldmine - and I totally agree with you on the potential $$$ that may be realized with the freight potential to metro Orlando.

Sounds like some pretty serious due diligence has been employed here. This is very exciting.

Could they use lighter trains since its their own tracks and not another RR?

No; the trains are still operating in a mixed environment with heavy freight trains, and I don't think there will be full time separation like the RiverLine and Caltrain have. It will be difficult for FEC to get a waiver from the FRA.

I'm guessing FEC will use off-the-shelf locomotives and coaches. They can probably jump onto SunRail's order and lower costs... the top speed of SunRail's MP36 is 108mph, which is also suitable for All Aboard Florida.

FEC is planning to run trains at 79 mph from Miami to West Palm Beach, 110 mph from West Palm Beach to Cocoa, and 125 mph on the new segment to Orlando.

That makes things interesting, then... short of the Acela, there isn't a locomotive capable of 125mph in the US yet.

The Midwest and California are seeking bids for a 125mph Next-Gen locomotive, but they haven't chosen a winner yet and I doubt those locomotives will be ready on FEC's quick timetable. They might have no choice but to seek an FRA waiver and use a lightweight foreign trainset.

Amtrak's HHP-8 & AME7 hit 125mph
NJT's ALP 46A and ALP 45DP can hit 125mph
Down the road Septa is looking to upgrade to 125mph and Metro North

Well, there are also the AEM-7 and HHP-8 electric locomotives which pull the Regionals, Keystones at 125 mph on the NEC. But those are electrics, of no use to the FEC.

The FEC may be planning to build the ~ 35 to 40 mile Cocoa to Orlando Airport segment to 125 mph standards, but that does not mean they have to start out operating at 125 mph. They could lease commuter diesel locomotives that are capable of 105 to 110 mph, while waiting on delivery of an order of the Next Gen diesels.

The FEC will have to order FRA compliant coach cars. Not going to get a waiver for the FEC line which has numerous grade crossings for one thing. There are commuter cars being sold in the US capable of 125 mph. But the FEC is going to want cars with comfortable reclining seats, plenty of leg room, a cafe for food & beverage sales. The FEC will have the advantage of not having to comply with Buy American requirements, so they can order assembled cars from overseas.

FEC is planning on using diesel locomotives, so forget about them buying electric power ones, they're not going to place catenary wires over their tracks.
I know Nippon Sharyo (Japan) and Talgo (Spain) build FRA compliant trains in the USA, but they could easily and cheaply build them overseas too. Other Asian and European train manufactures could too. Although I would like to see double level trains with doors compatible with low platforms, it'll be interesting to see what equipment they will order. Since it takes two to three years to get brand new trains built, they're going to have to order them soon.

full article: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/bro...,1962657.story

you cant read that sun-sentinal crap unless you subscribe..
miami or palm beach post are better i think

have they released any photos of the train stations
I guess the ones in palm beach and ft lauderdale will be small
but i guess miami will be huge like a shopping mall / hotel

The Orlando terminus at OIA should include a SunRail station, expanded Lynx bus service, and of course, the direct airport connection. At some point, it should also include the planned light rail service to the attractions.

Which is what I said when I wrote that the electric locomotives are of no use to the FEC.

As for rolling stock, the statement from FECI was that they are planning to buy 10 trainsets with 400 seats each. It was noted elsewhere on a railroad forum that the 2 Talgo trainsets in Wisconsin, headed for storage, have a capacity of almost 400 seats. Those Talgo trainsets are fully FRA compliant. Pure speculation, but the FEC could conceivably buy those 2 Talgo trainsets at a discount, have them ready by 2014, and order 8 more identical FRA compliant Talgo sets to be built at a Talgo plant overseas. However, the FEC may not want the short cars of the Talgo design and the ability of low height Talgos to maintain speed through curves is not of much use for the FEC route. There will presumably be an announcement on FEC rolling stock purchase plans in the next 6-12 months.

i had no difficulty in accessing the Sun-Sentinel article. May be a case of the site limiting access to so many articles per month from one non-subscribed PC.

The article points out the potential of increased traffic delays at the FEC grade crossings. Going from a modest freight traffic level to 2 passenger trains an hour (one each way) could become a contentious issue since the FEC is not going to pay for grade separation projects. The FEC may pay for improving the grade crossing with new gates, vehicle detection sensors, but the main responsibility for the grade crossing rests with the state DOT or local governments.

As for the station, the FEC will release renderings when they are ready to do so. What will be confusing is that West Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami will each have 2 separate trains stations: a Tri-Rail & Amtrak station and a FEC Miami-Orlando Airport corridor station. The Miami stations will be connected by Miami Metrorail.

The presence of two train stations in Fort Lauderdale, WPB, and in Orlando with Sun-Rail & Amtrak closer to downtown and the FEC at the airport may well push those cities along towards streetcar and light rail transit projects.

yeah ft lauderdale is building THE WAVE streetcar
that will put alot of people/seats onto the ALL ABOAD train

palm beach i think will use trolly type bus system

tri rail will not compete with this , it will complement it
after 10 years of improvments tri-rail works very good
plus tri-rail will now go to MIA airport

I'm a little confused - I thought the FEC tracks actually went through the Downtowns, and that the Amtrak line is out by I-95. Do I have it backwards?

Orlando is the one where Amtrak and Sunrail go downtown, and FEC will go to airport.

Yeah, I know that re: Orlando, Jasonhouse. I'm talking about West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale & Miami.

fec - all aboad miami - goes to a new/furture downtown miami station
near the miami heat arena , it does goes thru the eastern part
of florida/ft lauderdale/palm beach

tri rail/amtrak goes down I95 then to the new MIA airport/metro station.

tri rail works very good, before it was single track but is now double track.
the new MIA airport station is going to do big business when done.

I did write a bit of run on sentence. The "in Orlando with Sun-Rail & Amtrak closer to downtown and the FEC at the airport" part was referring solely to the situation in Orlando.

The stations in WPB would likely be not all that far apart as the WPB Tri-Rail station is not far south of where Florida is planning to build a cross-over from the FEC to the CSX/Tri-Rail tracks.

Florida DOT set aside $118 million for a Jacksonville to Miami (Airport / Tri-Rail) corridor service. What happens to the plans for stations at Cocoa, Melbourne, Vero Beach, Fort Pierce, Stuart on the FEC tracks, but would be on the FEC Miami to Orlando corridor? Do the towns go ahead and build the stations, but ask the FEC to have some of their Miami (downtown) to Orlando trains stop at the towns? Going to be interesting to see how it sorts out.

Thanks, eleven=11. My memory isn't failing me! :cool:

Got it! Thanks.

The money FDOT set aside is for an Amtrak line on the FEC between Miami and Jacksonville. All Aboard Florida would be a complement to that service. If All Aboard Florida is successful between Miami and Orlando, FEC plans to extend the service to Jacksonville. In that case, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of those cities, such as St. Augustine, Daytona and Cocoa, included as additional All Aboard Florida stops.

Actually, it is free of charge. They will allow you to read the newspaper. You don't have to pay for it.

New Miami-Orlando train service could be boon to downtowns


August 18, 2012

By Michael Turnbell

Read More: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...passenger-rail

yeah , being stuck in trafic (in a car)
if its a long long freight train , thats anoying
but for a short passenger train
no big deal , just like a red light......

^Yeah, I don't see waiting less than 10 to 15 seconds for a passenger train making only three stops (only two per hour) in the entire metro being a big deal.

I cant view the sun sentinal stuff
can someone post some info on the broward hub?

I love downtown fl lauderdale
In my party days this was the place to be
but this was back when it was ghetto bad.

Here is the blurb about Fort Lauderdale's proposed downtown station site, from the article posted by M II A II R II K.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...passenger-rail

Wow...

I really hope this all works out in the end. If it does, then it should serve as a model of how private-funded HSR projects could work in the US.

On a side note. I thought the new intermodal facility being built at MIA was to have high-speed rail access in addition to the metrolink and bus facilities. Am I wrong?

nice try
I hate private-funded HSR projects.
the rep GOV of florida can stick this up his butt.
the public transit system in dade county is going to put people on this train.
the public transit system is broward county is going to put people on this train.
the public transit system in palm beach is going to put people on this train.
the public airport in orlando is going to put people on this train.

if anybody wants to trade rick scott for a used bicycle lets do it.

Stop spamming the post and I don't like it at all. I do not appreciate for your behavior. You could reset your post count back to zero.

do you know anything about Rick Scott?

what was it I said about High Speed Rail that bothers you?

do you have a used bicycle?