Let's stay on topic please.

The Intermodal Center in Miami was planned with HSR in mind & they have room for it. However the rejection of Fed funds by Governor Scott has ended that idea. The rest of the trasportation systems you mentioned are still intact.

This is actually setting an interesting precedent...

I would say that the actions of Gov. Scott has put the plans for a Tampa to Orlando to Miami true HSR route on indefinite hold, but those plans are not completely dead. The FEC is sort of taking over those plans and may well extend their tracks from Orlando Airport to Tampa on the ROW that was to be used for the HSR line.

The new tracks across Florida from Cocoa to Orlando Airport and then to Tampa should upgradeable to higher speed electrified HSR, say 160 or 180 mph speeds, because they will be mostly straight with either no or very few grade crossings. However, the FEC tracks from Cocoa to Miami have numerous grade crossings.

I did a Google search and found a 2007 document from the South Florida Regional Transportation Authority when they were looking at using the FEC tracks for a commuter train service. The FAQ states that there were approximately 200 grade crossings between downtown Miami and West Palm Beach. There is not a breakdown of how many of these are public road crossings versus private grade crossings, but regardless, that is a lot of grade crossings.

If the FEC service is successful and proves to the skeptics in FL that people will indeed take trains between Miami and Orlando, then there may be widespread interest in true HSR service between Miami and Orlando. The FEC with the numerous grade crossings would be very expensive and likely problematic to upgrade to electrified HSR. At that time, there could be a resurrection of the plans Miami to Orlando HSR service over a different and grade crossing free route, which may still go to or through the Miami Intermodal Station.

This is long term speculation on my part however. First, the FEC has to get through the many hoops, secure the funding, double track the current tracks & build the new 40 mile line, buy the trainsets, start revenue service, and then get enough ridership to make a successful go of it.

As far as I'm concerned, forget HSR. I'm hoping it will be successful enough that they extend service to Tampa and Jacksonville. With rail, this state needs to learn how to crawl before running.

i cant wait , I'll stand in line to ride it.
lots of people will.
walking distance to the miami arena & metro rail.
ft lauderdale is building the WAVE streetcar
lots of people will ride this.

fec rail has been siting on this property for years waiting for this.
but the GOV of florida is going to have a press confrence
and say only private companies know how to do this

Dan Tracy of the Orlando Sentinel is reporting that FEC's private passenger rail project now has a few obstacles to overcome:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/media/gr...8/71871830.jpg

1. City of Cocoa wants a station but is continuing to be rebuffed by FECI.

2. The Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority (OOCEA) doesn't want a Cocoa station because it fears less people will drive on their toll road if the train were an option. FEC wants OOCEA's right-of-way for free to get to Orlando, so I assume Cocoa loses, although they have a valid point with Port Canaveral being there.

3. Negotiations with Orlando International Airport are moving slower than originally envisioned.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...tional-airport

So this is essentially Florida's "Acela Express?"

I wouldn't describe it as such.

Woohoo, privately-funded rail! Subsidized by the public, or at least by air travelers, to the tune of at least $400 million!

Are you surprised? CSX , NS & UP milk billions out of the state and large cities for things they can afford...

On the one hand I would love to see an upgrade to rail in any part of the country.

However, as has already been revealed this will not be "100% private" by a long stretch. They should be held to the same standard as Amtrak and be responsible for their proportional share of capital expenses for the rail infrastructure. Let's see how well they do then.

I wouldn't call it a subsidy. Actually, that's all a part of the airport's master plan and would have been built if Scott didn't kill HSR. It seems FECI is asking for them to move forward with their own plan. Outside of that, they're being held to a higher standard than Amtrak. On the rail infrastructure side, it's their money on the line.

The question is ....

This is how we get to be half as good
as spain or japan or england or germany

This is the plan to be half as good?
After the 2012 elections we need a better plan.

Its a good start though , lots of people will ride this
miami to orlando with stops in lauderdale and palm beach
this should have been done 10-20 years ago

Where is the money coming from? Does OIA use money from Florida taxpayers, or do they get money from ticket fees? Given the huge tourism numbers at OIA, I would guess the latter. Still, FECI wants to take money from the public - a subset of it - to pay for the expenses of their private business. That's the definition of a subsidy.

I'm also not clear on exactly what the plans call for. The Florida HSR proposal called for the rail line to go directly into the airport with a station at the terminals. Is FECI proposing the same thing? Or do they plan to terminate the service at 528/Semoran, with a people-mover connection into the airport? (For the record, I favor this plan, as it makes a downtown Orlando connection much easier in the future.)

Generally Passenger Facility Charge revenues which are assessed on airline tickets cannot be used for intermodal ground access stations at airports unless the station being financed is exclusively for airport passengers and employees.

"Also, the agency has made clear that when an on-airport project would have both airport and general use, PFC funding (again, relying on AIP eligibility) could not be used for any portion of the project, because the project was not for exclusive airport use. (March 1995 ARP-1 letter to SFO on preliminary SFO BART station design.)"

http://www.faa.gov/airports/resource..._practices.pdf

Interesting points about OIA subsidies, but........
Wouldn't the parking garages on OIA property be paid for by parking fees, not airline ticket fees? Ie, the subsidy being requested is for the parking garages, which can be used by the airport for both trains and planes - assuming there is a way provided to get people parking in the garage near the train platforms to the airport terminal, and vice versa, a way provided to get people parking near the airport terminal to the train platforms. A monorail line is just one way amongst many that could be used to connect the parking garages and train station and airport terminals together.
It's not unusual for almost all infrastructure located on airport property to be built, financed, and owned by the airport authority. As is, FEC is willing to build, finance, and own the railroad infrastructure.

Is it a subsidy if FECI desires to be the rail component of OIA's proposed intermodal center and South Terminal? Why should FECI fund the airport's infrastructure as well? From my understanding, it appears FECI is simply trying to tap into what had already been proposed by the airport. See the OIA graphics below. I scanned these a couple of years ago when they were talking about building this for the HSR project and Sunrail.

OIA has long talked about building a south terminal about a mile south of the existing one that would serve as the airport's intermodal center.

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...80_XqebM-L.jpg

FECI appears to be asking OIA to move forward with some of their intermodal plans since the Sunrail commuter rail project and FECI are moving forward as scheduled. Btw, there's a rail line for coal unit trains the runs south of the airport and crosses SR 528, just west of the Greeneway/417, before terminating at an OUC power plant. I expect, FECI will branch off SR 528 and onto this line to access the southside of the airport. I know we focus on passenger rail, but this area sets up well for FEC to provide freight service, not only to that coal plant (CSX doesn't own this line) but to proposed industrial areas surrounding it.

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...83_yhAgh-L.jpg
Proposed South Terminal

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...63_VRAAA-L.jpg
Section of South Terminal and parking garage

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...91_Uqk3W-L.jpg
Cross section of initial phase.

Looking at this initial phase cross section, FECI replaces HSR, Sunrail remains the same and the airport's people mover remains the same. The only mode missing is LRT, which there never was a serious proposal for.

Proposed SFECC commuter rail with All Aboard Florida (yellow circles) and existing Tri-Rail:

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...3at94335AM.png

http://www.sfeccstudy.com

^^
I don't understand how previous plans make this less of a subsidy. Most of that would have been paid for by the feds. Its not like OIA was looking to expand without HSR but under the FEC's plans OIA will have to bear the financial burden with no guarantee that they will see a return. More to the point, OIA does not know if FEC will be profitable but is being asked to take on a large amount of the risk. Basically FEC is asking OIA to pay for something that marginally benefits the airport but that is essential to FEC's plans. Its good business for FEC, have others pay for your project and minimize risk but it definitely is a subsidy because There is no way around it. Now the question is whether the subsidy is net beneficial for OIA.

Why should OIA pay almost $400 million to build a parking garage/depot that will directly compete with their current parking garages and directly benefit a business that will directly compete with the airlines that pay OIA landing fees. Building a parking garage that is no where near the terminal does not make much sense on its own. Do they need more parking space? Does it make sense to build a garage a mile away from the terminal instead of a more centrally located position? It will only make sense if the parking fees are greater than the construction bonds, plus any loss in landing fees/current parking fees, plus any operating expense of moving passengers from the new garage to the terminal. In the end, they might come to a deal that is beneficial to both parties but it seems that they are farther apart then what FEC wanted to be. Also, in the end it is still a subsidy. It does not matter if it is mutually beneficial. If FEC wants to use OIA's borrowing power and wants them to pay for their parking, then that is a subsidy.

And the same goes for OOCEA. Why give free land to a company that is going to directly compete with you. The first priority should be to the bond holders and if FEC undercuts the tollway, then that would put the authority's financial position at risk. The 2011 annual report lists OOCEA's revenue bonds at $2.7 billion dollars. What effect will giving free land have on the bottom line? Will the new right of way be on the State's tax rolls? Basically, FEC wants as much as it can get from the people of the State of Florida without reverting to a direct infusion of money or loan guarantees. Now the question becomes whether or not the people of Florida think it is in their best interest to go along with the plan.

I have no problem with private rail plans but it seems that private players rarely gauge the complexity of projects and the time necessary to actually implement large scale passenger works. I have always thought that this was too large of a project for FEC/Fortress, they simply are not big enough to commit $1 billion dollars buying and building an HSR line. However, as time goes on, their plan becomes clearer and relies on others to fill in the gaps. If they can get this project complete it will be an amazing business deal. If they get it done in the time frame they set forth, it will be a miracle.

What is the red line??

Also dont forget about the new WAVE trolley in FT lauderdale

double post.....

OIA has been talking about building that south terminal since I was in high school and I'm 35 now. There's nothing stopping them from scaling it back or simply running a shuttle bus out there short term. In addition, the State's Sunrail commuter rail system is supposed to tie into this as well. Sunrail will be operational by 2015, with or without FEC. No way, FEC should be paying 100% of the cost for OIA's long term wet dream. Also, as airlines continue to consolidate at Central Florida's six international airports, this connection definitely benefits OIA long term. To get things going, if OIA doesn't want to pay for the taj mahal in its current configuration, all of these entities should build a temporary surface lot and connect it to OIA's main terminal with a shuttle bus.

The last question is the easiest. Yes, the good chunk believe its in Florida's best interest to have FECI move forward with their project. We've been waiting for something like this for a few decades and even voted to have a 100% state subsidized version in 2000. As for OOCEA, this should be nothing new. The HSR plan we've talked about for the last 20 years was going to utilize the same ROW. However, FECI should be more beneficial to OOCEA. The State plan would have included a stop at Cocoa. This one won't. Also, the FECI thing is about land development. Flagler is a major industrial/commercial developer in this state and having them focus on developing along the Beach Line probably has OOCEA doing back flips behind closed doors. With 40 miles of undeveloped property to play around with between Port Canaveral and OIA, both OOCEA and FECI seem to be sitting pretty. That's a lot of land for future industrial/commercial/residential development, which means increased vehicle trips, which equals increased toll revenue.

To be honest, I don't see any of the obstacles mentioned above as huge. If anything, it sounds like a typical part of the negotiation process. I'm sure, you'll see these ironed out with some compromises and the project will continue to move forward. There's too much money to be made for FECI, OIA and OOCEA for them to kill it.

Because its OIA's garage and the whole system complements OIA's airlines. It's a major coup to have tourist fly into OIA and still have direct access to South Florida.

It's a part of OIA's expansion plans and that's where OIA wants it. If you check out a google earth aerial, you'll see they've already been setting up infrastructure for this future airport terminal. Also, I'll have to go back and verify but I don't believe OIA's airport terminal was included in the original HSR capital costs either.

There are multiple parties that benefit from this so it makes sense that the costs should be shared on the airport's side. It's hard for me to classify this situation as a "subsidy" when its mutually beneficial. Without FECI involved, the taxpayer would be funding all of this (FECI's rail and OIA's desired infrastructure development) or it simply wouldn't happen.

and still cost huge quantities of money.

I guess you're right. If FECI pays for infrastructure OIA wants, but isn't actually needed for the basic rail service to operate than they would be subsidizing OIA to a degree.:blink:

Anyway, it hasn't been stated exactly what part or how much of the terminal complex that OIA has been asked to share the cost in. Once that's out, we'll have a better idea on if this particular request is a subsidy or not.

Not sure what you mean? Red (and green) are a proposed commuter train running on the FEC tracks, with the exception of the red with a direct transfer with Tri-Rail at the Pompano station. Click on the web site below the map

Here are renderings of the potential train sets.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111106PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png



http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111306PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png



http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111317PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png



http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111328PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png



http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111339PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png



http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111349PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png



http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111400PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png



http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111420PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png



http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111430PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png




http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111444PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png



http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111456PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png




http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111505PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png



http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111516PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png




http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111526PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png




http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111536PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png




http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111543PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png




http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111553PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png




http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111603PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png




http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at111611PM.png
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...at112857PM.png

AAF has made their initial filings with the STB (Surface Transportation Board) on their immediate plans for the FEC ROW.

Per Trains Newswire:

ORLANDO – All Aboard Florida, the organization behind the restoration of high speed passenger service between Miami and Orlando, revealed a number of details of its plans in a filing with the Surface Transportation Board earlier in the month. The filing includes two parties under the All Aboard Florida banner, one for operations and one for stations.

The passenger train operator will rebuild a second track along the Florida East Coast Railway between Miami and Cocoa, Fla., and build entirely new track on right-of-way leased from the Florida Department of Transportation and Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority. This would place about 40 miles of new rail line alongside or in the median of state Route 528, which runs between Cocoa and the Orlando airport and is operated by the OOCEA.

All Aboard Florida will not seek public operating subsidies for the project, but is exploring the possibility of obtaining construction financing through the Federal Railroad Administration's Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing Program. Through the program the railroad can apply for direct loans and loan guarantees through the FRA.

The filing stipulates the new passenger service will not be a part of the interstate passenger rail network and should be exempt from federal oversight. All Aboard Florida will not participate in any through ticketing program with Amtrak. It also says no freight service will be operated by All Aboard Florida, or over the new right-of-way to Orlando. It does say that, for flexibility in operations, FEC dispatchers will have the option of using either track on the shared right-of-way for freight and passenger traffic.

Construction of the project is expected to generate 6,000 new jobs in the state, 1,000 permanent jobs, and even more job opportunities from transit-oriented development around the stations.

All Aboard Florida expects to have trains running by Jan. 1, 2015, and plans to operate 16-19 daily trains, allowing for hourly service during peak times. The filing specifies the trains will be 900 feet long and be equipped with Wi-Fi and meal services. Trains will operate up to 79 mph on the share portion of the route and 110 mph on the newly built portion. Details on the type of equipment to be used are still unknown.


The two filings with the STB are located here:

Petition of Exemption:

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.n...7?OpenDocument

Motion to Dismiss or Discontinue:

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.n...F?OpenDocument

Sucks about the cross-ticketing. I wonder whether this is ideological or FEC just couldn't reach a deal with Amtrak.

Freight railroads are administered by the STB because most freight loads are shipped across state lines, passenger railroads only need to be administered by the FRA. That's why FEC is already split into FEC(R) and FEC(I), with R including just the freight railroading business and I everything else. The All Aboard Florida passenger trains will remain a part of I. For that reason alone, it's idealogical. The STB shouldn't administer the AAF trains as long as they don't cross-ticket with Amtrak. AAF can still do business with all other modes of interstate transportation like cruise lines, airlines, and buses; even with commuter rail that doesn't cross the state line; just not with Amtrak.

There's a fairly long video at YouTube from a recent meeting AAF held. All these legal issues was discussed. Here's the link to the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl1yVSD_Tv8

Also in the video is a long question and answer session with interesting answers. They will need to buy 10 train sets to run up to 14 trains a day. Each train set would have 9 vehicles; 2 locomotives on either end and 7 passengers cars with one diner, one first/business class, and five coaches. As I understand it, although they wouldn't mention the manufacturer as yet, they're looking at buying lighter weight trains from overseas- from a manufacturer that already has American facilities - although they don't have to buy American made. I don''t think AAF is considering buying Hi-Liner equipment.

The rolling stock will take the longest time to complete, from 20 to 30 months, and is therefore what will set when service can start. Design has only reached the 30% stage, so many specific details asked couldn't be answered. Never-the-less, many questions were answered.

So... Siemens, Talgo, Nippon Sharyo, Alstom... am I forgetting anyone? Bombardier is Canadian but not "overseas".

I wouldn't discount Bombardier, as they make many trains in Europe.

At one time, XpressWest expressed some interest in Bombardier EMU models, I wonder if they make DMU versions as well?
Siemens diesel powered ICE TD trainsets would be my initial choice for a "Premium" higher speed trainset that could attract higher fares. But they're only four car sets, the video suggests FEC wants 9 car sets including the headend power.
Talgo also makes diesel powered HSR sets capable of 125 mph, but the cars in the sets are shorter, we'll be discussing 14 cars instead of 7 in a set, so I'm inclined to count them out.

Is it that difficult to change the number of cars in a trainset? In a DMU, each car literally pulls its own weight, so it shouldn't be too hard to add more.

However, I think AAF will shy away from articulated connections.

Here are some station planning concepts from their environmental study:

Miami:
http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...40.32%20PM.pnghttp://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...21.52%20PM.png


Fort Lauderdale:
http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...39.10%20PM.pnghttp://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...03.07%20PM.png


West Palm Beach:
http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...36.21%20PM.pnghttp://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...03.28%20PM.png

wow those plans are spot on!

any news on the orlando airports stations?
does sunrail also have plans for a airport depot?

Sounds to me like the lack of cross-ticketing is an effort to sidestep certain regulations more than anything. Probably they would be more heavily regulated if they were classified as an interstate carrier. Not sure what regulations these are.

Wow, 51-inch platforms. Cool. No commuter rail operation will touch that outside of the Northeast. The report also says AAF is looking at single-level cars. I'm thinking they want to use an off-the-shelf foreign trainset with a waiver.

The Miami option is elevated on a viaduct, BTW. It's hard to see that from the image you posted.

You can see the elevated portion in this graphic.

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/...01.29%20PM.png

Dade/miami just spent $300 million for new trains
on the metro system due in 2015!!!

The Palm Beach Post says that All Aboard is buying land
and geting ready for construction.
also on Thursday to anounce some plans......

Another step forward in FEC's plan to utilize the BeachLine for rail between Orlando and Cocoa.

All Aboard Florida only bidder to build private rail lines to Orlando

full article: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/bu...vate-ra/nTQNT/

Miami-to-Orlando passenger rail on track
 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/bro...,1551050.story

Sounds like a goer, but I noticed that completion has now been bumped from 2014 to 2015. Maybe 2014 was always unrealistic.

They were suggesting December 2014, early 2015 wouldn't be that much of a set back. Anytime you're having to wait on government for a decision, you should expect some set backs.

did the orlando airport announce the new station plans
also does it connect to the new downtown orlando station....

AAF will not go into DT Orlando. Instead Sunrail will have a second line that will terminate at the AAF airport station.

December, 2014 was always an unrealistic start date for the proposed Miami to Orlando service. Besides the new stations to be built, the miles of second track to be added to the existing line, building ~40 miles of new track takes a while. Even if most of the new tracks will be in a medium strip of a highway, there will be flyover bridges, connecting bridges to build, probably some utility relocations, etc. I think FECI knew that the December, 2014 was not realistic, but they are using the early start dates to create a sense of urgency with the state agencies, municipal government, airport authority, political leaders to get them to respond quickly and not let applications sit in the inbox for 6 months before doing anything.

I'm guess that you have wait for an approved. Try to be more patiently. Give it chance. Right now, they were in negotiating.

Huh ? This is news to me.