Nobod(or very few people) from Akron...and I mean born in/or raised in Akron or the Akron area(south of the Turnpike) would say they are from Cleveland. Northeast Ohio, yes...but not Cleveland or "The Cleveland Area".

Concerning Lebron he's never claimed to be from Cleveland, that's been sportscasters or writers from outside the area. In fact here is story were Leborn makes that clear:

https://www.cleveland.com/sports/2020/07/lebron-in-2010-were-not-from-cleveland-were-from-akron.html#:~:text=CLEVELAND%2C%20Ohio%20%E2%80%93%20Ten%20years%20ago,his%20talents%20to%20South%20Beach.&text=%22And%20he%20said%2C%20'We,We're%20from%20Akron.

The other thing is I don't believe most Clevelanders look at Akron as being a part of Cleveland. Do they look at Akron as being a part of the region and a neighbor, sure. However I don't think most look at Akron as some sort extention of Cleveland.

Ultimately I can see how you as an outsider may see or look at Akron as ring city of Cleveland, I'm just trying to explain to you how it is here on the ground, at least in Akron.

Yup, it's weird and I can certainly see how if your not from here just looking at how close the cities are one would think that they all opperate together but it just doesn't work that way. I've worked in Cleveland, Akron and the Canton area and the people from all three generally indentify independently of each other...Even Akron and Canton which essentially border each other.

Yes, of course people from Akron identify with being from Akron to others within the NE Ohio region, as well as to others within the state and within the broader regional context.

But if they're talking to someone from Rhode Island or Florida or Oregon or Texas, and asked where they're from, people say "Akron, Ohio", and if met with any uncertainty or unfamiliarity, the follow up is possibly "Northeast Ohio" or "just south of Cleveland" or "it's near Cleveland" or "the Cleveland area".

The average person outside of Ohio and the general overall region has no clue where Akron is... they've likely heard the name, but don't associate it with any particular location. Cleveland is moderately relatable for the average person, and Akron is close enough and connected enough that "Cleveland" does indeed serve as proxy to respond to the majority of people who have zero clue about geography.

I used to witness it all the time in medical school and when training residents who were from the area going to school in NYC. Stow, OH (a northern Akron suburb) became just "northeast Ohio" and then when people were like "what's northeast Ohio?", it became just "Cleveland". Students who had attended Kent State went to school "near Cleveland".

I never said LeBron claimed he was from Cleveland. He is widely identified in the sports world as being from Cleveland though (false as it is)... the "hometown boy", "bringing a championship back to his hometown", "playing for his hometown team", etc. And that's because Akron is identified with Cleveland.

I don't believe Akron even has its own local TV channels anymore -- they're served by Cleveland's. Correct?

Again, I don't think Akron to Cleveland is an equal ring city situation to the examples of Waukegan or Aurora or Joliet to Chicago. I know that Akron is solidly its own city. And Cleveland obviously does not have anywhere near the pull on nearby cities, nor the instant national familiarity that Chicago has. So it's definitely not on that level... I said so initially.

I'm just saying that it is now valid to consider (at least for argument's sake) Akron as a ring city of Cleveland... not that Akron is "a part of" or an "extension" of Cleveland, per se. But Cleveland has indeed grown/sprawled to connect with and supersede Akron's full "independence" -- the Cleveland TV stations example is a prime indicator of that. And there's always been connection and outsized influence from Cleveland on the smaller city, Akron... for instance, small examples like the Cavs used to play in Richfield (smack dab at the halfway point between Cleveland and Akron), and 1970s and 80s Cleveland sprawl was pushing down 71 and 77 from Strongsville and Brecksville to Richfield and then to begin 1990s Cleveland McMansion sprawl pushing down further into Bath and surroundings closer to Akron. When bands on their summer tours play their "Cleveland" concerts, they play at Blossom... in an Akron suburb... and it's where the Cleveland Symphony built their summer performance amphitheater home.

Akron will always have its individual identity, but like it or not, Akron has taken on many of the attributes of being a spoke on the ring around the main hub. And for regional economic good health, it should (and will) continue to do so.

^ guise -- if we didn't have the cuyahoga national park we wouldn't even be having a debate. the sprawl would have barreled and spread straight down to akron. instead, maybe there would still be things like all the nice tomato and farm greenhouses on the westside suburbs remaining, instead of the modern sprawl development.

that said, myself and i am sure everyone are certainly very glad the park was created for its own sake.

for those that don't know, the cuyahoga valley national park directly between cleveland and akron is one of america's newest national parks (it became a national recreation area in 1974 & was elevated to national park in 2000). it is the very major physical seperation between the two cities and sprawl from cleveland grew down around it, but also maybe more east and west than it might have.

Exactly. I wasn't even going to bring up that aspect, so thank you for noting the reality.

And having nowhere to go to the north, and being blocked just to the south by the park, it only hastened further growth around the park along the 77 and 271/8 corridors south towards Akron.

Wanting a Metro to be a part of another Metro and that being a reality is two different things, ask the O.B.M[Office of Budget and Management. You talk about Cleveland sprawl, but what about Akron sprawl and influence. Akrons influence into Wayne County, Portage county and joining with Canton into Carroll and the Stark county area is much more greater than Clevelands influence into the Akron area. If Cleveland was centrally located in Northeast Ohio i could agree. I think most of you forget that Akron is not some small burg like Parma, or Lorain, cities that ring Cleveland. Akron is an old established city of about 200,000 , the size of a Birmingham, or a Rochester. Akron and Canton both have their own radio markets, they have independent T.V stations, no Major
broadcasting outlets, Major newspaper , the Akron Beacon Journal, which is a powerhouse in that region.l

^ I understand that you guys know far better about “on the ground” experience regarding Akron. I would never attempt to pretend that I’m some local expert... far from it. It just seems to increasingly fit the bill of a “ring city” (that definition is obviously up for interpretation just based on this discussion) of Cleveland, considering the distance, connection, and being in the “orbit”of the larger city.

Yeah...

Los Angeles in the early 20th Century was very powerful in terms of water; this is why the San Fernando Valley, which originally was agricultural, allowed itself to be annexed by LA just for the water---with Burbank and San Fernando being the only independent municipalities in the SFV (I was never sure if Glendale is part of the SFV). Los Angeles built the LA Aqueduct, getting water from the Owens Valley in central California. But by the Great Depression, I believe, the MWD was created (Metropolitan Water District), which gets water from the Colorado River, and sells it wholesale to cities that contract with it, so by then, communities didn't have to rely on the City of LA anymore for water.

According to my city's (South Pasadena) website, its source of water is from: (1) groundwater pumped from wells in the Main San Gabriel Groundwater Basin, (2) surface water imported by Metropolitan Water District of Southern California (Metropolitan) from the Colorado River, and (3) groundwater from the City of Pasadena.

Whole books have been written about the (often dramatic) story/stories of the quest for water in Los Angeles. I don't doubt that other big cities in the US have equally interesting stories about getting water for their growing populations.

Austin had Hyde Park which is now squarely in the middle of Central North Austin. It was a traditional streetcar suburb with a line running into UT and downtown. The streetcars ran from the 1890s to the 40s when all the tracks in the city were either ripped up or eventually paved over.

The northern edge of the UT campus is in the bottom left corner.

Big aerial:



https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/NTwo...PICA02628c.jpg
https://austin.curbed.com/2017/9/18/...ars-light-rail

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https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/LW8q...eetcar_map.jpg
https://austin.curbed.com/2017/9/18/...ars-light-rail

I'm not saying Akron isn't an important center on its own, but I would definitely argue that it is a ring city of Cleveland - just like Painesville and Lorain/Elyria, only larger. Akron isn't that much larger than Lorain/Elyria (198k vs 117k). No one would argue now that Lorain/Elyria and Painesville are not ring cities of Cleveland. They're the same distance away, older than Akron, and boomed economically at the same time (steel vs Akron's rubber). The biggest difference is they fully sprawled into Cleveland, while the park is in between Cleveland and Akron. Historically, Akron is more tied to Cleveland than the other ring cities. It was built as a stop on the Ohio-Erie Canal (hence all the Locks that have become the main entertainment district in downtown Akron - very cool area, btw), which linked the river to Cleveland.

Akron is more culturally connected to Canton than it is to Cleveland, being that they share an airport and are physically closer (though not anywhere near bordering eachother), but is not disconnected from Cleveland. We all share a media market and sports teams. Would Akron be an important center without its proximity and connection to Cleveland? Possibly. But I think it would be more like Mansfield than how it is now. The same argument goes for Cleveland - it probably would not be the size it is now without its connections to Akron.

Maybe I am not fully understanding a "ring city" (a city which grew independently, but it now culturally an economically tied to the main center city), but I think Akron fits the bill. Looking at NEO as a whole though, I think we are more analogous to the Ruhr, in that we are a multinodal region (Cleveland, Akron, Lorain/Elyria, Canton, Youngstown, Warren, Painesville, Ashtabula) that are all economically, culturally, and (alot of times with sprawl) physically connected. Unlike the Ruhr though where Essen, Dortmond, and Duisburg are all similarly sized, Cleveland is the undisputed center of this region.

Flint and Detroit are like acquaintances and they're also not really connected by sprawl, still separated by rural land and recreational parks, pretty large distance in between.

Windsor is just Detroit's arm that happens to be on the other side of a river, it does not belong in this thread lol.

Cleveland and Akron seem like semi-conjoined twins? Ohioans talk like it's the same metro.

^^ Interesting points... especially since they are supportive of my commentary on the matter:haha:

NE Ohio is definitely vast and multimodal... but only in the sense that there are many individual centers. It’s not like there are multiple alphas within the region. Cleveland is THE alpha of the region, and there is no other... there’s not even a close beta city close to Cleveland in the region. All of the cities of NE Ohio are what they are because of they’re proximity to Cleveland... one of the largest industrial centers in the world at one point and also one of the top 5 largest cities in the US.

another indicator of northeast ohio being a bit more pulled apart than a typical monopolar region is the fact that akron/canton have their own shared commercial airport.

now, it's not a terribly big airport, with nonstop service to only 10 domestic destinations on 3 different airlines (united, american, spirit), but the mere fact that it exists only 40 miles SE of Cleveland Hopkins to serve a niche sub-regional market is telling

in chicagoland (a monopolar region to the core), you don't find secondary regional airports until you get way out to cities like rockford and southbend, a good 70-80 miles outside of the city.

^ Its even more strange when you consider Akron-Canton Airport was much bigger only a few years ago. When Cleveland Hopkins was a United hub, it was basically all United. The budget airlines all flew out of Akron. Alot of leisure travelers from Cleveland would drive down to Akron to fly out because it was so much cheaper on average. When United left CLE, the other airlines flooded in, in turn leaving Akron. Southwest and Allegiant left completely, and Frontier, which had been the main airline in Akron, switched the majority of their flights to Hopkins. Akron-Canton went from 1.83M passengers in 2012 to 800k in 2019. 2012 meanwhile was the low point in Hopkins passenger counts at 9M, which increased to over 10M in 2019 which is higher than it was when United left. Definitely further proof of Cleveland and Akron being intertwined.

Another point I would make which differentiates Akron from other "ring cities" - they have a decent corporate base, being home to two Fortune 500 companies (First Energy, and Goodyear).

Jesus, all this discussion about the dynamics of Cleveland and Akron also apply to Cincinnati and Dayton. It's actually kind of scary. Mirror images. Even the airports (Southwest left Dayton for CVG, even though CVG's in Kentucky)

Yeah, Ohio built way too many regular size cities.

They should've picked one single spot on the map and built a fucking chicago. ;)

Ohio's greatest strength (weakness?) is all the regions fighting each other to be the prettiest princess, and then bitching when one of the regions has the audacity to buy a slightly nicer tiara. Looking at you, Columbus/Central Ohio. And no, the fucking crown of Queen City Square doesn't count as the shiniest tiara. This is metaphorical, not literal.

Remember, we're the idiots who fought Michigan for Toledo (speaking of, ring city for Detroit?). You tell me who won in the long run (hint: It wasn't Ohio)

The infighting with the 3C's is why I'm kind of glad that I live in Dayton these days. Other than Cincinnati insisting that Dayton is a satellite of it (I'd disagree, there's still a pretty rigid border between the two right around Monroe), Dayton pretty much stays out of the other statewide drama and does its own thing.

I honetly don't know of any infighting that takes place other than with :koko: weirdos like us(or at least me) on these forums. I would imagine the average person simply lives their life in whatever city they are in giving very little thought to what's happening in the other cities.

Ok...this is written like a true Clevelander lol. I'll start with you continuing to compare Akron to Painesville or Lorain/Elyria. Akron dwarfs both in size, amenities etc. Just like Cleveland isn't just what's in the City Limits, neither is Akron. To combine Lorain and Elyria and say they aren't that smaller let's me know you aren't looking at it from Akron being more than just the city limits. You claimed they both boomed at the same time, which may be true but Akron was literraly the Rubber captial of the world, not one of many steel towns that boomed. This is evident in the amenities, foundations and old money areas that still exist and vastly outpace places like Lorain/Elyria or Painesville. I've got family in Lorain/Elyria and it is the absolute definition of a Ring City. I've got family in Waukegan too and the two areas absolutely mirror each other.

Cleveland is the biggest city in NEO, no question, but it's not the Center of NEO in how you're describing it. People in Akron, Canton or Youngstown lives don't revolve around Cleveland. Cleveland is not where folks from these cities look to for their identity nor do they see themselves as being from the Cleveland area....even if they root for the Browns, Indians or Cavs. This is sometimes the disconnect that I see from Clevelanders when they look at the aforementioned cities. Because they are bigger they think these other areas are just an extention of them which historically has never been true. We are all in the same region and are neighbors but we are not simply sattelite cities now becuase our sprawl now touches each other.

Windsor is far from just being Detroit’s arm on the other side of the river. While the two cities economies are somewhat interconnected, and there is a lot of mixing among its residents, Windsor is not really like Detroit or any of its suburbs.

Windsorites do however enjoy being a neighbour of Detroit.

Having grown up in western Pennsylvania, and being somewhat familiar (mainly eastern OH; Cleveland and Youngstown areas) with Ohio, it was always notable to me how PA had a higher population than OH... considering how many sizable cities OH had/has in comparison to PA.

Based on geography, no, Cleveland is not the center... but its fortunes govern the rest of the area's fortunes. Cleveland is the primary market influencer, and it is becoming increasingly prominent in that position, as we continue to develop into more of a regional city-state economic structure throughout the country (and it's especially unique in the rustbelt, as it's a matter of maintaining relevance/survival).

Historically, the connection did not exist as prominently because each individual city had more of their own economic independence, population, attributes, and thus, culture and identity. But incremental regional consolidation happens in the rustbelt in a very interesting way -- independent places grow closer together due to the decline we've experienced since the 1960s. It's regional growth via city decline. Cleveland/NE OH is a textbook example of this.

With incremental consolidation that occurs in rustbelt regions, comes an incremental erosion of individual city identity (however unnoticeable it is in any particular moment). In this way, Akron is, or is in the process of becoming, a "ring city" of Cleveland... no matter how prominent its historical position was and strong its own identity was/is).

Becoming part of the Cleveland media market and losing its own local TV stations is a major indicator; media absorption happens for a reason. And when there's no compelling reason to maintain separate media markets, well, it's easy to draw conclusions...

---

To me, regarding Youngstown... it seems much, much less connected to Cleveland than Akron does. Youngstown is that "in-between" Cleveland and Pittsburgh area... and arguably more connected regionally with western PA. The Mahoning/Shenango/Beaver Valley steel towns in PA, like Sharon, Farrell, and New Castle are basically part of Youngstown.

I'm curious. What you think differentiates Windsor from Detroit, other than the border?

Well, being Canadian is the biggest difference, it just feels different over here, even though our regions share a lot of commonalities and local traditions, Canadian and American cities usually feel quite different from each other.

Windsor also has its own metro area and economy that isn’t really influenced much from Detroit, even though the region is one big urban area, each side is very different.

So, in your opinion, Philadelphia has no ring cities? LOL. Surely, as one of the largest and most populous regions in the country, Philadelphia has ring cities.

If you look at a map, Reading, the Lehigh Valley (Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton), Trenton, Atlantic City, Wilmington, and to a lesser extent, Lancaster, quite LITERALLY form a ring around Philadelphia. Rather an oval shaped ring, but a ring nonetheless. Is that not the definition of a ring city?

I guess if you don't want to consider Camden a ring city that's fine, since it's right across the river from Philadelphia.

Wilmington is pretty self explanatory - definitely interconnected to Philadelphia. Ditto for Trenton, despite Trenton not being a part of the Philadelphia Region, which is a crock.

Reading is pretty connected along 422. If you're in Pottstown or at the Philadelphia Premium Outlets, which are still a part of the Philadelphia MSA, you're literally closer to Reading than you are to Philadelphia.

The Lehigh Valley (Allentown, Bethlehem and Easton) is pretty connected along 309 to Philadelphia. There are only 2 gaps in development along 309 from Philadelphia to Allentown, and those two gaps are preserved Natural Lands or State Parks. The first gap in development is between Perkasie/Sellersville, and Quakertown. The second gap in development is between Coopersburg/Center Valley, and Allentown itself.

Atlantic City is definitely the least interconnected, so I can see your point there. There is a commuter rail line that runs between Philadelphia and AC, and it's most connected to Philadelphia along Route 30 and the AC Expressway, but the lack of development between say, Hammonton, and Egg Harbor City is pretty wide. Most of it is also preserved Natural Land, State forest, the Pine Barrens, etc... so it will never be developed.

Well Ohio has no Philly equivalent. It's got 3 Pittsburghs. And SE Ohio is basically desolate.

As far as Dayton and Cincinnati mirroring the Cleveland Akron dynamic, I have to disagree. Using downtown to downtown measurement, Cle and Akron are 39 miles apart. Cincy and Dayton are 53 miles. Dayton also has its own TV and radio stations, airport, etc.

I will say, the two metros have basically all but bled into each other at this point, though. But the middle area feels disconnected from both core cities, and seems to function more as its own thing. Butler County, which lies between Cincinnati and Dayton, has almost 400,000 residents, and it's not home to any notable core city. There are old factory towns like Hamilton and Middletown, but for the most part, it's just massive amounts of sprawl where you don't really feel like you're part of Cincy or Dayton. Closest situation I can compare it to is Orange County. More or less feels like its own thing not part of LA or San Diego, though perhaps a bit more influenced by either the further north or south you go.

Ohio and PA are as equal as two states can be. Even without a Philly, Ohio has the same population density as PA.

Wait, what? Based on what I said, I'm not sure how you come to the assumption that I think Philly has no ring cities. That's clearly not even close to what I said. Really, how did you come to that conclusion?? :haha: That's what actually deserves an LOL...

I think the definition is up for debate, which is what we're doing. I'm basically going on what Steely laid out in his initial post... cities that "were then consequently consumed by sprawl"... cities that are "older, larger, but historically independent cities that have been swallowed up". That definition really doesn't fit for the Lehigh Valley nor AC. Reading, not quite, but it's getting there. I'm fully aware that Reading and the Lehigh Valley are strongly influenced by Philadelphia, but I don't know that they function as "ring cities" on the level of the Chicago examples given. I mean, we're talking 60 miles away in these cases... there's still a good bit of good ol' PA farmland in between... it's not like the Chicago examples given at all.

Yeah, definitely on Wilmington and Trenton. They're both basically Philadelphia.

Yes, I mentioned the 422 connection previously. I think it is getting there... not "swallowed up" yet though... and at an hour away, calling it a "ring city" (if we're considering Wilmington and Trenton to be ring cities), is tenuous... because it's nowhere near as connected as Wilmington and Trenton are. They're half the distance, with that distance fully urbanized.

Yeah, I'll admit there's definite regional connection, but like you say, there's gaps... lots of farmland along those routes. Like you say, it's pretty connected... I absolutely agree. But it's not contiguous and has nowhere near been engulfed by sprawl from Philly.

Yeah, I know the reason PA is slightly larger than OH in population (Philadelphia area). And, aside from Scranton-WB, Erie, and a handful of smaller cities/towns, most of northern PA (north of I-80) is a vast area that is among the most desolate land in the eastern US.

As far as the Dayton-Cincy stuff goes, I really have no good idea about that. I was not in that convo. But in my limited experience in Dayton, it did not feel too close with Cincinnati despite being connected to the south via sprawl. Dayton felt like its own thing more than Akron does (TV stations being just one of those things).

That's because most of Pennsylvania is mountains and forest.

Ohio is really much more dense in population/development than PA -- that's significantly apparent on the ground. Unless you're in Philly, but that's it. Ohio is a far more urban state than Pennsylvania.

I agree with this. The Miami Valley is culturally very distinct from Cincinnati. People forget that Dayton's "influence" extends all the way up to at least Sidney, which no one would claim to be a part of the Cincinnati region. I'd argue that Dayton is probably a bigger magnet for west central/northwest Ohio than Cincinnati is too, second only to Columbus in terms of pulling people out of the Limas and St. Marys up there.

I think it gets murky because of the way the MSAs are defined. No one in their right mind would call Springboro a suburb of Cincinnati, but it gets counted as such due to it being in Warren County in the Cincinnati MSA. Even more weirdly, Greene County (home of the air force base and Dayton's second largest suburb, Beavercreek) is in Cincinnati's ODOT roads district but Montgomery County is in its own roads district.

I may live in Cleveland now, but I'll throw out there that I did spend quite awhile living and working in Akron. I grew up near Painesville. In both places, where did my family, friends and I go for any kind of serious or unique entertainment? Cleveland. Things likely were different for you, but my own life experiences have taught me that Akron is in the orbit of Cleveland, the same as Painesville and Lorain/Elyria (while we are talking about it, I think they are a good smaller comparison to Minneapolis-St Paul as twin cities).

I probably overstated the similarlities of Cleveland-Akron to Cincinnati-Dayton. I forgot that Dayton has its own media market separate from Cincinnati's and that, other than Butler and maybe Warren County sprawl, don't have as much in common with each other as in Northeast Ohio.

Long story short, there's a reason why the rest of Ohio calls the Queen City "Cincitucky" and why Cincinnati seems to hate everything about Ohio north and east of 275 (King's Island being the lone exception).

I will say whatever relationship between Akron and Cleveland is , ring city is not the correct category. In the age of cablevision even sales marketing is not locked into a cities influence based on television broadcasting alone. Clevelands fortunes does not govern Akrons in any way, if anything it probably hinders it. Akron is its own jobs generator, its in the midst of a new housing boom, its zoo is growing at a tremendous pace, and along with Canton it is the growing influence below the Ohio Turnpike to points far south. And Clevelands influence is diminishing. Evidence is in the jobs commuting between Cleveland Metro into the Akron Metro area is down to 19 per-cent ( per NOACA, a leading Cleveland regional organization), meanwhile the jobs commuting between Akrons Metro and Cantons Metro is 39 per-cent and growing (per Summit and Stark counties chambers of commerce. With this growth, it is the major reason why Akron/Canton has applied to O.B.M. to be one metro of about 1.2 million people. Also with Amazon adding between 2,000 to 3,500 new jobs at Rolling Acres off of i-77 ,with close proximity to Stark, Wayne, and Portage counties this melding of Akron/Canton will be accelerated. I know Akron and Cleveland will have some contact in the region. but it is not as a ring city, there must be a better terminology than that...

:haha: Akron/Canton ain’t got no 1.2 million people :haha:


Even Summit County itself (Akron) is probably half Cleveland sprawl suburbs, not Akron’s.

Last thing i will say on this topic, wrong facts again. The Akron metro area population is over 700,000,Canton metro is over 400,000, they are applying to have Wayne County also included, which abuts Summit county and which has over 100,000 pop,[ U.S Census Bureau ], do the math. Also another myth that is erroneous, if you take all of the so-called Cleveland suburbs which are in Northern Summit county, cities of Hudson, Twinsburg, Northfield, Macedonia, Sagamore Hills, etc, you total just under 100,000 population[per the U.S Census Bureau. The total Population of Summit county (Akron) is 541,701, so by my math 100,000 is a long way off of being 50 percent of 541,701.So i conclude most of this Akron ring city is what we call Cleveland speak, because the facts on the ground is something very different. And i did not even include the Akron suburbs in Medina county(Cleveland Metro) like Wadsworth .Maybe we need a new topic, Metros that are moving further apart...

I knew you were speaking out of ignorance but this just confirms it. Skysoar has already debunked this so I’m not going to get into much more detail. However I will never understand how people who don’t live or know an area well can be experts on this sort of subject. As he said the Sprawl from Cleveland is around 100k and some of these places like Hudson are actually sprawl from both cities....and it’s accepted that this does not count Akron’s suburban sprawl into Medina County. But hey, what do we know, Akron’s just a bigger Painesville :shrug:

Akron the hub of 1.2 M people... and Jacksonville’s skyline is just as impressive as Toronto’s!

-I would add Chester, PA (pop. 34,000): only 18 miles from Center City, and 13 miles to South Philly. (Settled in 1641, Incorporated in 1682).

Although the city is nearly dead now, at its industrial peak in the early and mid-20th century the city had ~60-65,000 people, and was an important shipping/manufacturing center. Hopefully, recent efforts to revitalize Chester's Delaware River waterfront, including a new master plan, will keep this old town alive.

The entire Boston MSA (let alone the CSA) is basically just historically independent cities that have merged into Greater Boston over the last 300 years.

All the Merrimack Valley mill cities: Lowell, Lawrence, Haverhill, Nashua, Manchester

All the Buzzard's Bay and Cape Cod whaling cities: New Bedford, Fall River, Barnstable

All the Blackstone Valley and Central Mass mill cities: Worcester, Fitchburg, Leominster

I would add Newtown, PA also. It’s close to Trenton, NJ and should be in philly’s msa. Does Trenton go to New York or philly?

I was about to repost the math I did in another tread about the suburbs in the Akron MSA that are Cleveland's, and the ones in the Cleveland MSA that are Akron's, showing how intertwined the two are... but it's not worth it anymore. Yes, Akron = Painesville. Full Stop.

You are partly correct, Dayton shares its influence with both Cincinnati, and northwest Ohio, or the Toledo region, even though its 2.5 hrs drive from Toledo, Daytons northern side is more common with northwest ohio, and its southern side is in direct correlation with southwest Ohio or Cincinnati. You can tell the difference once you cross either side of downtown. I believe it has something to do with the Ohio Valley, because it does this same thing on Cleveland, where it is extremely hilly on Cleveland's eastside in correlation with Pittsburgh, and extremely flat on the city's westside, in correlation with Toledo or Detroit

With the major exception of Galveston, Houston not only lacked any "ring" cities but had essentially no well-developed towns at all nearby until the second half of the 20th century.

-Humble, Rosenburg, Baytown, Richmond, maybe La Porte had like 4 or 5 blocks of main street and a few thousand people each, and those were by far the largest towns in the area. Big enough to at least have a movie theater and high school.

-Alief(called "Dairy", hence Dairy-Ashford Rd), Aldine, Stafford, Missouri City, Little York, Almeda, Sugar Land Pearland, Tomball, League City, Spring, etc, would have all been little more than a train depot, a church, a post office, a general store, a filling station, a school, and like a dozen ramshackle little houses full of hard working people. And that's about it. Some named places, like Klein, were more like a rural area identifying itself as a whole community rather than a built up town. Very little of the original footprint of these towns is even noticeable with the exception of Old Town Spring.

This would have been true for the above places until like 1965, too.

I think this is why even compared to Dallas and Phoenix, Houston's suburbs have so few established centers that aren't a mall, and also why the city doesn't have as many incorporated municpalities in its metro. In contrast, somewhere like Plano and Garland or Scottsdale or Decatur would have all been more built up small towns capable of self-governing and annexing land around them to expand as suburbs in their own right.

Trenton goes to NYC, which is insane. Trenton, and Mercer County, NJ in general, are more tied to and aligned with Philadelphia.

I wouldn't add Newtown. It's definitely a small town. There are some towns/boroughs though that really are like small cities that I would include that function as "ring cities" to Philadelphia.

The problem is, PA's municipalities are so chopped up, their populations are pretty small on paper. Below are the larger "boroughs" or "town centers" surrounding Philadelphia, and the townships that surround them. In most other states, the town centers and townships would be one in the same, and would not be split up into different municipalities.

Larger towns surrounding Philadelphia you could count as "Ring Cities":

Norristown borough - 34,422
East Norriton township - 14,014
West Norriton township - 15,651
Total Norristown, PA real population - 64,087

Bristol borough - 9,598
Bristol Township - 53,625
Total Bristol, PA real population - 63,223

Conshohocken borough - 8,065
West Conshohocken borough - 1,422
Whitemarsh Township - 18,120
Plymouth Township - 17,570
Total Conshohocken, PA real population - 45,177

Pottstown borough - 22,667
West Pottsgrove Township - 3,876
Upper Pottsgrove Township - 5,739
Lower Pottsgrove Township - 12,112
Total Pottstown, PA real population - 44,394

West Chester borough - 20,048
West Goshen Township - 23,009
Total West Chester, PA real population - 43,057

King of Prussia borough - 19,936
Bridgeport borough - 4,579
Upper Merion Township - 11,120
Total King of Prussia, PA real population - 35,635

Media borough - 5,668
Upper Providence Township - 10,446
Nether Providence Township - 13,743
Total Media, PA real population - 29,857

Doylestown borough - 8,297
Doylestown Township - 17,428
Total Doylestown, PA real population - 25,725

Phoenixville borough - 16,957
Schuylkill Township - 8,641
Total Phoenixville, PA real population - 25,598


In fact, you could even say King of Prussia, Conshohocken, Norristown area is really one city. Their combined populations would be 144,899 in a pretty compact area.

I think Norristown, West Chester, and Pottstown are perfect examples of Philly ring cities

Some people in Milwaukee get upset that Kenosha is added to Chicago's MSA and not theirs.

Kenosha to downtown Chicago: ~50 miles

Kenosha to downtown Milwaukee: ~30 miles



But it's all just commuter percentages (and relatively small ones at that) and kenosha has metra commuter rail into downtown Chicago, but only a commuter bus route into downtown Milwaukee.

Trenton being part of NYC is like saying Akron has 1.2 million people.

Trenton, and adjacent Hamilton, are actually two of the busiest stations in the tri-state for Manhattan-bound commuters. It isn't particularly far, Central NJ home prices are relatively cheap, and the trains run fast and express.

It isn't distance, but transit connections, that determine commuter accessibility. Trenton is on the NEC corridor line, so has better commuter connections to Manhattan than some places a few miles west of Manhattan. This is why you see unbroken sprawl all the way to New Haven, while there are still undeveloped tracts not far from Manhattan, in SI and NJ.

I understand it has to do with commuting patterns, and Mercer County, NJ has slightly higher commuter patterns to North Jersey and NYC (which is obvious, it has more jobs and they have larger employment centers), and yes, Trenton is connected to NYC and North Jersey via NJ Transit commuter lines, and Amtrak. I get all that. Trenton, Hamilton and Princeton DO NOT have unbroken sprawl and connectivity to North Jersey and NYC however.

However, here is the argument for Mercer County (Trenton) being more closely linked to Philadelphia. There is ABSOLUTELY unbroken sprawl between Philadelphia and Trenton, Hamilton and even Princeton. Mercer County, NJ is a part of the Philadelphia Media Market, not the NYC media market. Mercer County, NJ is also a part of the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission - in case you didn't know, the Delaware Valley is another name for the Greater Philadelphia Area. Philadelphia is also just as connected via Transit to Trenton and Mercer County as NYC is. That same Amtrak line in Princeton and Trenton, also goes into Philadelphia. SEPTA has two transit lines that run into Trenton. Furthermore, the NJ Transit Riverline runs from Trenton down to Camden, and hits all small cities and towns in between. Mercer County also meets commuter numbers to be a part of the Philadelphia CSA, but the numbers are slightly higher to NYC and North Jersey (for obvious reasons) and therefore, goes to NYC.