The Third Street light rail stations were deliberately placed to serve the baseball stadium, the convention center, and the basketball arena. All are within a few well-lit blocks of the two stations. If a new arena were built east of 7th Street, the nearest stations would the ones at 12th Street. The distance between light rail and the new arena would be several blocks more than the distance that exsits right now, and the path would include some darker, lonelier blocks. For that reason, I'd bet against a new arena at the railroad yard. I think it's more likely that a multi-faceted land deal might be used to fund a new arena on the current site of the convention center's south building.

I don't know why they'd build a new stadium instead of just putting it in the same spot or remodeling what they got.

That option usually involves displacing a team for at least one season, maybe more. That's why building something new nearby might be more appealing.

Minneapolis just did this with the Vikings to build US Bank Stadium, the building is amazing and in my opinion worth having the Vikings play in a college stadium for a season.

I saw that structure under construction during a recent visit to Minneapolis. It was looking impressive. Temporary displacement can be worth the trouble sometimes, but I wonder if it would work out here with the Coyotes already in a precarious situation with Glendale.

Also recall that's football. That's ten home games a year (with pre-season). It is much more difficult to displace a hockey or basketball team (or both). If you need evidence, look at Coyotes attendance vs. Cardinals. People will go anywhere for a football game. Basketball or hockey on a Tuesday night in a bad venue, not so much.

I do agree with you though, I wish it could be on the same land. Otherwise we're going to be left with an empty structure or superblock. No ideal situation.

This is the most likely scenario in my opinion, too.

While I like shiny new buildings as much as anyone, I've never walked into 'Talking Stick Arena' and thought "man, this feels outdated." I'm sure some pretty amazing upgrades could happen with $50 or so million. When I think of outdated, I think Sun Devil Stadium (not for long obviously).

It's not about feel. It's about a building that is now beyond it's useful life. It can no longer support some concerts, cannot support hockey (sightlines), is less than ideal from a suite perspective, has roof troubles. So while it doesn't feel outdated, remodeling doesn't really solve these issues. There are issue with the bones and reality is, it's not one of the oldest in the NBA. Only solution is a new arena that the Yotes and Suns can share.

I believe the owners interest have a lot to do with revenue generation of the facility, the problem with having an older stadium is that you can generate less money for your team and therefore typically a less competitive product. This seems to hold some merit when you look at the number of suites available here versus many other cities, were not the worst, but were certainly a long way from the top. I'm not sure how many suites a market like Phoenix can sell out, but apparently this along with the fan experience is enough to pursue a new stadium versus renovation.

https://alsd.com/sites/default/files...0Variables.pdf

City to Sell Sheraton Hotel for Fund New Arena
 

Well, that escalated quickly, per our predictions yesterday after TGEN building went up for sale.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...authorize.html

I hope we hear of a proposed arena soon. It seems a source has been indicating the Coyotes talks have advanced rapidly (per Seattle newspaper).

This hotel needs to be sold ASAP, at least while the real estate market and local economy are still hot. I was never super in favor of it (I would have been somewhat swayed if the design didn't suck) but it and its interiors are going to look dated before the next several years and will require costly upgrades. Moreover, it was built with subpar construction materials like aluminum wiring to save money during the height of the boom. I bet this was the cause of its recent fire.

Sheraton Grand it may be now, which will certainly boost its cachet and sales price, but this white elephant needs a new savannah.

I feel pretty good that Phoenix wouldn't be putting it up for sale unless they had a suitor. They had been looking for a suitor, then mysteriously put it up for sale--it's always the chicken (developer) before the egg (the RFP). I assume a discounted sales price and we'll break even on the deal or take a smallish loss with the new owner assuming much of the debt. I would be shocked if Phoenix turned a profit.

I can only hope that the presumed buyer (because there is one) has the capital to buy it immediately and within the terms of the upcoming proposal. Phoenix screwed up the P.B. Bell RFP on the Barrister block pretty good because the winning proposal was not adequately funded.

Combusean - white elephant needs a new Savannah - Well played. Well played!!!!

Very disappointed that they city selected an almost identical proposal for the Barrister as it chose last time. The last proposal was for two 6-story buildings and 111 units, so 88 condos is in line those numbers. 88 units for that intersection is absolutely horrible. Nobody is going to invest in a high-rise that might eventually be blocked by an even taller building adjacent to it, but I'd like to think something a bit more inspiring than 6 stories could have been possible. If 88 units was truly the max this site was going to see, I would have much preferred a hotel from Bayrock. And while we don't need retail at the bottom of every building, it makes sense to try and build on the popularity of CityScape and the visibility this site will have from the future Central light rail and Luhrs Marriott tower.

Continuing its RFP-crazed agenda, the City just authorized one for the HR building at 135 N 2nd Ave, adjacent to 111 W Monroe. I really can't imagine what type of project would be viable given the size of the site, but with the activity happening near 4th Ave (Welnick Mkt and Baptist Church), anything that extends the walkable portion of Monroe west is a good thing. It'd be great if somehow the City could get ownership of the awful Fed Courthouse parking lot across Monroe- a mixed use parking garage to serve it and this new project would make that block much less of a dead zone, and then a future 200 Monroe development would create the best urban street downtown on Monroe from 4th Ave - 1st Street. Too bad for the CenturyLink building, and that horrible garage that swallows up the gorgeous Masonic Temple. The Temple, at least, could be turned into something cool like a museum, performing arts space, etc.

I'm convinced Mackay is a complete hack. http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/b...-with-new.html

CO+HOOTS is moving to a building in Midtown because Mackay convinced them NOT to stay downtown, which is where they were set on finding a new space for expansion. Diverting jobs and economic development downtown in order to fuel your ego and mission to revitalize Midtown is a big mistake. With all of the great things happening downtown, the one piece that is blatantly lagging is jobs. CO+HOOTS is the perfect fit for downtown- an employment base that will spend and live downtown, small businesses being incubated in high-paying industries that may eventually be successful and need more space downtown, etc. The article mentions that all employees live within 8 miles of the new location... that's great, but if they were willing to travel to downtown for work from those 'hoods, you've now basically expanded their options ~5 miles north. Why stay in Midtown when you can now move to Scottsdale for the same commute?

Midtown is doing just fine attracting residential development, which is its best bet moving forward since no new office towers will ever be built near these historic neighborhoods (5-story Omninet is currently facing opposition). The focus should be on residential infill, converting older towers to new uses, and renovating the ground levels to make it an actual walkable, urban area. When it makes sense, companies choosing Midtown is obviously not a bad thing; filling Park Central with healthcare next to a hospital obviously makes sense. Or, a company that nixed downtown due to lack of contiguous space and parking and was about to look at different cities- promote Midtown which has an abundance of both. But, don't take a perfect fit for downtown and put them in an office building with ground level parking when these employees were perfect fits to live downtown and walk/bike to work.

Ugh to an arena in any location aside from where it currently sits, and for any investment into the area around 9th St/Jackson. Moving investment away from downtown has never been a successful strategy for Phoenix, so why dilute the critical mass that is FINALLY filing up the core to what will likely be a collection of anti-urban, generic, low-rises with overparked garages to try and 'fix' the perceived shortcomings of downtown offices? Nothing the city has touched has turned into a successful project from a design or 'activation' perspective. A stadium and arena within the core weren't enough to spark ANY investment into the densest collection of warehouses within the Warehouse District; the Convention Centers are complete dead zones and the streets adjacent to it like Adams can't give away its retail space; the hotel is disgusting, operating at a huge loss, and is a 2-sided dead zone; I won't bother with the PBC...

If it the arena is moved to the CC site, it's a waste of an opportunity to create a modern arena that adds more to the city than a monstrous sports venue. In its current location, there's a reason to incorporate retail, affordable housing, etc. into the design... but, what's the point on Washington/3rd Street? That has to be the least walkable part of downtown, with the least amount of potential to change. So, a lame arena there + an empty shell putting the final nail in the WD's coffin. Perfect.

^ The complaints you listed about downtown are the reason investment is needed elsewhere. Downtown is a concrete mishmash of perpetually vacant lots, crummy buildings, and pockets of activity that isn't turning around quickly. All the sites that are available step on some other building. 2007 was the biggest boom in real estate downtown in decades, yet huge numbers of sites sat dormant with no proposals attached to them.

The reason why is that downtown isn't worth its land values and not really worth retrofitting for brand new high-rises--not yet at least. You have to clean up its perimeters with higher incomes because those radii are formulaic that anybody looking to expand downtown is looking at.

I'd like to have a chance at one good retail street in Phoenix, or maybe see new lots in the central city that actually got developed without insane overzoning leaving them vacant forever.

What's your alternative, anyways? That the 200 acres directly east of downtown sit as a polluted industrial transportation site until the end of time?

And Cohoots wasn't downtown, they were in Eastlake.

And you talk like moving an arena 3 blocks is going to kill any part of one neighborhood. Huh?

Combushawn has a very valid point that outward growth will help the core. People are still nervous about central and Lincoln, 12th and van burn, etc. And that keeps them out of the city.

It doesn't feel outdated necessarily, but as a fat person (I'm well aware of my body image issues and know that I need to lose weight) its upper concourses are definitely cramped compared to newer arenas. Acoustics for concerts there suck, although the few concerts I've seen at Gila River Arena weren't much better from an audio standpoint (to be fair, I'm not a fan of arena concerts). I'm trying to go to a few Suns games later this season, so maybe the experience is a bit different compared to concerts?

I still don't understand why nobody had the foresight to design AWA to be able to accommodate a hockey rink without obstructed view seats? It's not like multipurpose basketball/hockey arenas were a novelty when the arena was being designed back in the late 1980s/early 1990s. I know nobody at the time anticipated that Phoenix would have an NHL team in 1996, but still, really?

^ Colangelo wanted a basketball-only arena, and that's what Colangelo got.

CO+HOOTS is expanding and was looking exclusively at downtown for their new location until Mackay convinced them to go to Midtown. Their current Eastlake location is irrelevant.

I completely understand what you're saying in some regards, and no - my alternative is not to let the area lay in its current state forever, but to let private market demands and private developers invest into the area as the benefits of dense urban infill will have been seen by the success of projects like the ones being built in Garfield. In the meantime, the City - instead of playing real estate developer - could focus on projects like making 7th Street less of a highway, designing PBC to connect to both the east AND west, etc. to allow the development east of downtown to support the core instead of blocking them out. And, they could also enforce things Urban Form so that the chance of a street lined with retail could actually be a reality instead of blocks of loading docks and garages (can you imagine the type of design that would fly on 9th/Jackson?).

Look at what's been done at 111 Monroe; a private developer renovated what was once unusable, outdated office space and attracted a ton of employers with jobs that are perfect fits for the demographic that is wanting to live/work/play in urban areas. The ground floor, which had a pizza joint and dentist, now has a brewery, record store, antique store, wine/cheese shop, and coffee shop. Similar successful renovations have been done in Midtown (Thomas/Central (or 3rd? with the mural and MOD), for example). Meanwhile, there are more residential projects under construction just north of downtown than ever before, and the number of adaptive reuse projects filled with cool, local businesses is amazing- Milkbar, Songbird, Be+Coffee, Street Coffee, Sutra Yoga, Antique Sugar, VELO...

So, I'm not sure how why you act as if downtown is in some type of holding pattern until the surrounding neighborhoods gentrify. Even the southern part of downtown is seeing more action than ever with ASU's art program moving to Grant, The Croft, R&R, several architects, Training Institute... A development of cheap low-rise crap east of 7th Street will most definitely compete with - and crush - the remaining warehouses which are viable options right now for businesses who want to be downtown and can't afford high rise prices. How is that a good thing? And, yes, I do think moving the arena will kill the Warehouse District. What chance does it have if you replace one of its only sources of energy and visibility with a giant empty shell and superblock? A new mixed-use arena in its current location is a chance to connect Jackson to Jefferson with a mix of residential, offices, and retail that could finally spark something. This + LRT = exactly what you say has to happen: giving neighborhoods (that exist - unlike any new faux urban-or-not 'hood potentially built on 9th/Jackson) like Central/Grant Park access to services, schools, jobs, and making them an affordable option for middle-class Phoenicians.

Maybe I wasn't clear and I should have reiterated that my issue is if *the City* assembles land and RFPs it in the 9th Street/Jackson area. Developers, over time, investing in that area would be great, of course. But, nothing the City has done makes me believe that something under their watch can be built on that land that will benefit downtown. Because, thanks to projects they've commissioned like PBC and Chase, that area is in no way even connected to downtown despite its proximity. There are so many other areas that the City can focus on to position downtown AND these surrounding neighborhoods as good opportunities for investors. In fact, I'd be happy if the City, State, and County never touched another piece of downtown land or its buildings and instead focused solely on attracting investment. Together, this combo has already wasted enough of downtown's potential: The Security Building (County), The Warehouse District (west of Central; County), Phoenix Biomedical Campus (City; I have no doubt that there'd be proposals out for the land between 4th - 7th Streets, Garfield - Fillmore, if it hadn't been land-banked for these shitty buildings which could have fit into 3-5 towers south of Fillmore), the lack of accountability for much of ASU's design (City)... luckily, their RFPs are almost always a bust (where's that crane for Central Station?).

^ And, if that's crazy talk, it's crazy talk. I'm clearly not going to change the mind of Mackay or of any developers. From what I see, momentum is finally on downtown's side, and offering up cheap land to developers at this point in time can't possibly help. This isn't 1999 or 2010; when there new residential projects and employer relocations announced weekly, it seems desperate and a lazy way of addressing larger employers' concerns (no parking!).

I don't see the difference between this and what happened to downtown when high rises were allowed in Midtown. Why didn't the new residents of all those apartment towers lead to a retail renaissance downtown? If it's cheaper to build a strip mall on 16th Street to supply any new residents on 9th St/Jackson than it is to renovate a building on Central, I have a good idea of what will win out.