Eh, I think they should build both. If the Grey Line would really be that cheap, then Illinois can probably pull that out of a state capital bill once the state has some money again, with no Federal funding required.

They won't do it, of course (even though they could) because the people at Metra have their head stuck up their ass. They plan the STAR Line, ask for several billion from the Feds to build it, and then call electrification a pipe dream. Asshats.

On the worthiness of the Red Line extension: 95th was never designed to be a proper terminal. It has hundreds of buses coming in and out, and it's overcrowded because of all the people trying to transfer from train>bus and vice versa. That's CTA's public rationale for the extension, as well as the usual stuff about replacing bus operating costs with rail operating costs, etc... It's not bullshit, though.... 95th is a very poorly-planned station for the high amount of traffic it has, and there's no room to expand without tearing up the neighborhood and the Dan Ryan along with it.

Plus, if anybody is driving into the city from the south, there's no park-and-ride for them to use, and surrounding streets are both dangerous and the street parking is heavily restricted with various permits.

Lots of good news, in fact.

On this topic though, there's awesome news. In September a study of commute times showed that Chicago has the shortest commutes in the country of any city in the country. Nashville and Oklahoma City are te worst. It's because we don't have to go very far and because we have options. This study assumes that every car traveling under 60mph is experiencing congestion. The speed limit on highways in the city is 55mph, so if you are driving at 3:00 AM on the Dan Ryan, you're experiencing traffic delays.

Chicago, lowest commute times in the country: http://www.ceosforcities.org/pagefil...aphicFINAL.jpg

Wrong. I didn't choose to leave, I have a good job and haven't quit yet. I'm not trying to rationalize anything. I won't lie when I say both my wife and I *want* to leave lately though, and we are both born and raised here/nearby. Just five years ago I was Mr. Chicago with all my friends. I convinced two of my best friends to move here, one from West Palm Beach, another from Milwaukee, and decided on a job here versus better paying ones elsewhere.

But please tell me some good news. I mean it. I need to hear it as I'm on my wits ends. I want to want to stay here. I bought a home in the city and the value is WAY down, we have the highest gas prices in the country, the worst traffic congestion (worse than LA!), the most scary pension/deficit problem in the entire country (look at what we spend and what we take in, look at our pension obligations, we're screwed and I predict the state of Illinois to declare bankruptcy if Congress ever allows this), my state income tax just went up 67% along with everyone else who lives here poor or rich, and people in this state/city just keep re-electing the same people over and over again without wanting any change and instead of cutting spending in this state they "won't increase it more than 2% year over year." And people are leaving. My best friend from West Palm just moved to Peoria. And according to United Vans we have the most negative domestic migration in the country right now, worse than Detroit.

Please tell me something good I need to hear it. I may be able to put up with all of the above if we had world class transit or the weather were actually decent, but Chicago has neither. I hate to sound like a hater but most of my friends have become the same way and have really turned on Chicago lately. It's like we are a constant laughing stock around the country lately.

If you want to spend 200 million dollars to increase trains on the ME, I'm all for it. However, be honest about the plan, it isn't new service, it's increased service. You purposely use the transfer of title from Metra to the CTA to misleadingly call the project a "a new CTA line". In fact there's no reason to change agencies on the line at all. Why would the CTA spend $200 million dollars on a line that, according to your website, loses money for Metra and doesn't connect into CTA's existing system? That's certainly a boondoogle. Instead of calling your little transit fantasy "the Grey line" be an adult and call for money to be spent on improved Metra service. Most people are behind that, including myself.

The traffic is bad here and it is getting much worse though. The mother of all studies (the TTI annual mobility report) confirms this.

Like tup says, it sounds like your mind is made up. Remember that most of the country has a fairly negative outlook at the moment... where are you thinking looks better these days? Even booming Texas now has a $25bn budget deficit. Most states are looking at some form of tax increases. And if you enjoy the things that make a city a city, how many states with major urban centers have a lower tax environment than Illinois, even with the income tax increase?

The traffic congestion stats are a bit... weird, and not very useful for broad generalizations. It all depends when and where you're driving. Chicago's peak road congestion is bad, but otherwise mobility is quite good outside of a few bottlenecks. LA is just jammed all day.

For those interested, CTA has posted this "Scoping Book" in preparation for the public EIS meetings next week:

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets...purple_FTA.pdf

First off, it's the "Gray Line" since we're in the U.S. and not Britain, not the "Grey" line.

Second, there would be no reason to change agencies if Metra actually cared about City services. But they don't, and they've REPEATEDLY stated so, and demonstrated so. Even then it might not be necessary if Metra stopped ignoring the REQUIREMENT given it by the RTA to develop a unified fare system with the CTA. Metra has steadfastly refused and/or intentionally dragged its feet on that, though, meaning that it doesn't "connect" to the CTA physically, but it also doesn't "connect" via fare medium. If Metra Electric local service were turned into a CTA operation, service would be more frequent, bus transfers would be handled under CTA norms, which would almost instantly increase ridership (and take some pressure off the Red Line but also induce new ridership), and it would make certain things - like re-extending the Green Line to Jackson Park (for what would be a much-improved transfer-connection to "normal" CTA rail service) easier and more likely to happen.

In other words, despite your condescending "adult" snide (the man who is advocating the Gray Line is very much an adult and has been advocating for it for nearly 20 years now), the idea of bringing local Metra Electric service under the operations of the CTA may be the only way to bring service levels up to a level appropriate for the needs of City residents. It neatly sidesteps a number of contentious Metra/suburbs/city issues, and while it would probably cost more than $200 million, it would almost certainly cost less than the Red Line extension while providing service enhancements that would positively impact far more people than the Red Line extension will.

>> Thanks for your support!!

Have you ever lived anywhere else? Are you sure you're not just experiencing "the grass is always greener" syndrome during the worst national recession in your lifetime?

This is true in the majority of the country, and for the most part it's not any one region's fault - it was a national problem.

I don't like that tax rate either, and they DEFINITELY should cut more. But even with the increase, Illinois and even Chicago do not have an unusually high tax burden relative to other states and large cities. Despite all the hype, we're still not in the top five for overall tax burden, and once the dust settles we'll probably still not be in the top 10. Before the recent issues, we weren't even in the top 20.

I don't know where you're getting your data. As far as I can tell, United Vans only publishes state-level data, not city-level. And even then, for 2010 (the most recent study) Illinois does NOT have the worst net domestic migration in the country - not even close. What state does? New Jersey. Even in the Midwest, Michigan and Missouri both have higher losses than Illinois. According to the list, we're closer in numbers to New York and Indiana than we are to New Jersey and Michigan.

Besides, almost all big, international cities have high domestic out-migration just due to the nature of how cities work. Young single people move to big cities to get jobs or go to school. They work hard, do well, have kids (this is key - two people move in, two people plus kids move out) and some (not all, but some) choose to settle elsewhere, often in smaller, quieter places since with kids they can't afford the avail themselves of the city's advantages anyway. Not something to worry about to bash a city over, it's just the way the world works.

Weather here ain't great. But on balance I don't think it's any worse than Boston or New York City or Toronto or even Philly. It's certainly no worse than places like Berlin and Moscow and Beijing and Minneapolis.

Transit here is better than you give it credit for. It could be better, for sure, but car travel and transit do compete. I think Chicago has a good balance. It's a lot easier to drive here than it is in Paris or London, and we still have very useable transit (I'm car-free here for the past 12 years) even if it's not quite as rail-comprehensive as Paris or New York.

Honestly, the only thing that really worries me about Illinois (and thus Chicago) is the pensions issue. And I think that can be worked out. The rest of the issues, even the other budget issues, I know can and will be worked out. Chicago is still positioned very well to take advantage of a recovery. I've been here 15 years. I grew up near Portland, Oregon, which a lot of urban people admire, and I have family in Idaho, which a lot of anti-tax, anti-government people admire. But I have no interest in trading Chicago for either of those places. No place is perfect, but Chicago really is a great city and, despite some big problems (largely also problems in the rest of the nation), I think it's still on the upswing.

Whose methodology is flawed, according to Brookings:

Also take a look at this pdf from the National Transportation Policy Project.

You've accurately described the problem, and I agree with that assessment. But this is not a serious solution because it does not deal with any of the new issues created. The CTA is just used as a foil to highlight the issues with Metra without actually assessing the limitations and complicated bureaucracy which would need to be created to actually implement the solution. The idea of incorporating a completely independent rail system which they don't maintain, operate, or train personnel, but are completely responsible for in the eyes of the public for is a nightmare. The CTA had issues with the yellow line because it had overhead caternary electrification and you don't think that moving the ME to the CTA wouldn't result in a host of new problems? Again, I have no issues with the idea of spending money to increase service on that portion of the line, but if the proposal wants to be taken seriously by me and others, don't ignore the host of problems associated with the solution and label it for what it is. It should say something when one guy has been arguing for something for twenty years and almost nobody takes him seriously.

You just sound like a pessimist to me. All but 5 states or something like that are facing massive budget deficits right now, Illinois is the first to actually raise their income tax to do something about it. You should be glad you live in a state that is at least going to attempt financial solvency. Chicago does have world class transit, its just a unique system that is among the oldest in the entire world and built in the most challenging soil type for tunneling. For a 125 year old system, the EL is pretty damn good. Finally, that report is bullshit, traffic in Chicago is nowhere near as bad as it is in LA. When you get on the freeway at rush hour and traffic is moving at 25 mph, be thankful because in LA its going 5-10 mph all day long... I'd know I lived there all summer long and it sucked. And I view high gas prices as a good thing, it more accurately reflects the true costs of driving to society.

One thing you have to get used to in Chicago is that we always fear being second best and therefore blow small negatives up into a huge deal.

The Gray line is completely feasible and could connect into the El system. The St. Charles Air Line tracks could be used to feed the line over to the Red, Green, Orange trunk at Roosevelt and connect right into the heart of the system. Additionally the Green Line could be re-extended to Jackson Park and provide even more connectivity.

Schwerve said: "It should say something when one guy has been arguing for something for twenty years and almost nobody takes him seriously".

>> Since we're into snide remarks - "DID YOU READ PAGE 19 OF GETTING-ON-TRACK": http://www.illinoispirg.org/uploads/...g-on-Track.pdf

>> Are you able to understand the things that you read????

>> What does the statement "Recommended above A L L Transportation Projects (not Public Transit - TRANSPORTATION) in the Chicago Area" mean to YOU Schwerve????

Lived all over the place when I was younger. London, NYC, North Carolina, Madison Wisconsin. Of course those were back in boom times.

I appreciate your optimism. It helps. I feel like I'm surrounded by nothing but pessimism here lately. All you do is turn on the news and see Chicago is the worst in this and Illinois is the worst in that. It's constant lately it seems. And its serious issues too. The middle of the night, lame duck massive income and business tax increase did not help, let me tell you. I guess if Illinois can solve its pension issue and at least admit that there are some serious outdated highway bottlenecks here, I'll become a lot more optimistic. I hope Emanuel wins the mayoral bid because at least he has publically stated he is going to try to look into cutting current state employee pensions, while the other candidates have gone on record that they are going to try to "increase revenue." It seems all of our tax dollars lately go into enriching the government and its employees. I remember back in the 70's and 80's the taxes were lower and there was much more new infrastructure and construction being done by the government, way more than today. I wish we would get back to those days. Instead most of our budget seems to go to retired workers whose unions paid millions of dollars to get certain people, who they negotiate with, elected. At least I can see Emanuel busting some heads together.

Didn’t see this when skimming through the thread earlier—thanks for the answer!

If anything, the Dan Ryan segment of the Red Line has excess capacity, due to greater usage on the north side. Where it does have trouble is where ardecila mentions, at the 95th Street not-intended-to-be-a-terminal.

I definitely agree about this—but only for the mainline down to 63rd and the South Chicago branch (which also has the advantage of being recently rebuilt to ADA standards). One thing that’s worth remembering is that the IC was already reducing service to the South Side before Metra took over, mainly in response to two things: competition from the CTA (with its subsidized fares) and declining demand for downtown trips. Looking at the South Chicago branch, we see a number of different CTA bus routes paralleling it (which, in my experience, tend to be pretty packed), so it looks to me like there competition from the CTA the major factor. Still, according to RTAMS the stations there average around 195 boardings per weekday (taking out 93rd, which is a major outlier).

In contrast, the mainline stations between 63rd and Kensington (another big outlier) average about 62 boardings per weekday. Part of this is competition from the CTA’s integrated bus and rail network, but I think a large part of it is also the fact that a lot of people who live in further south don’t work downtown, and a lot of the ridership on the Dan Ryan line and major bus lines is for non-CBD travel. If someone who lives in Roseland needs to get to the 74th Street industrial belt, for example, the Gray Line won’t do him much good. It also seems to me like riders south of 95th tend to live further west (a Halsted elevated route to 115th had the highest cost-effectiveness rating of any of the Red Line extension alternatives), so the preferred Red Line alignment—in between Halsted and State—makes a more sense to me rather than having a frequent service along Cottage Grove, basically at the eastern edge of the far south neighborhoods.

It’s also worth remembering that the Red Line extension’s cost is so high because it extends all the way to 130th rather than 115th (I haven’t seen to figures after inflation, but IIRC if only extended to 115th the cost was $800 million, as opposed to $1.1 billion for a full extension to 130th) and the CTA wants new shops-and-yards, which adds about another $200 million to the 130th option and $300 million to the 115th one (higher for 115th because of the need for extra track to reach the yards, at 120th). I don’t have the links on me at the moment, but they’re at the CTA’s red line extension page.

Despite my critique, I think it’s worth noting that I still think the Gray Line’s a great idea—just a great idea I’m in partial disagreement with, if that nuance is able to be transmitted across the internet.

How far north do the electric line tracks extend? do they reach Lake St, or just stop somewhere in between Lake & Randolph underneath Illinois Center?

If they make it all the way to Lake, it would seem simpler for system connectivity to build a transfer tunnel, such as at the Jackson stop, to a State/Lake super station with free transfers to Red, Brown, Pink, Green, Orange & Purple lines, similar to at Clark/Lake.

It would be less expensive than reusing the St Charles, & tying it into the red green & orange, & would maintain transit service between Millennium Park, the Museum Campus, & McCormick Place.

As I posted earlier, we don't have the worst traffic in the country. We have the lowest commute times in the country, ahead of 2nd place New Orleans.

Chicago's income tax is still going to be lower than all the surrounding states. After the tax hike, it will be lower than all but Indiana and Michigan. Shrug. Nationwide, our tax burden is about 25th. Move to Mississippi if you like, I guess.

The CTA has been upgraded. Red and Purple lines will be upgraded soon. Ridership is up relative to the economy and despite service cuts. The CTA tracker is useful and a success. We are getting some BRT soon.

Chicago has added 200 high-rises in the last 11 years. Basically equivalent to all of Seattle.

Corporate headquarters continue to move downtown. Chicago's financial industry is strong internationally and improving.

Groupon is one of the most buzzed about companies in the world and is about to enter the Fortune 500. Chicago has rocketed up the list of places receiving venture capital the last few years.

Chicago's population is flat, losing low-income residents to the sun belt and gaining high-income residents and college grads from all over the country. Our percentage of college-grad retention is good and improving.

Your home value would have dropped more in most other cities (at least, any city you would want to live in.)

We have the shortest commutes in the country and the best culture/cost-of-living ratio in North America.

This week it was announced that Chicago has more Five Diamond restaurants than any other city. We have the best Symphony in North America. We have the best bike-expressway along the lake in North America. We have the best bus system in North America and good trains.

If you don't like the weather, what can I tell you. Of the six or seven "cities I like" It's damn similar to Boston and New York and better than Toronto and Montreal. San Fransisco, Seattle and Vancouver have warmer winters. Shrug.

If you're not happy, you're not happy. If you're not happy because of what Chicago is like, you probably wouldn't be happy in any other city. Unless the last six weeks of winter really makes you depressed. Then you should consult a physician.

The Feds were much more into urban infrastructure before the Reagan and Gingrich years, and one of the reasons for TIFs caught on was as a way to make up for the loss of federal revenue. That said, although I can’t say anything about your total tax burden, business taxes are still less here than in Wisconsin (so we only have to worry about Indiana stealing out jobs), and the fact that we’re going to keep Champaign-Urbana and UIC afloat and sidewalks mended will do a lot more good for the state than people realize. As Richard Longworth notes,

It’s also important to note that people always take their current situation and extend it to the past and future to make judgments—it’s just a human thing, and it makes prediction really difficult. Vaclav Smil, the great energy scientist, notes that the biggest determinant in predictions about future il prices is the price of oil at the time of the prediction. Go to 1970’s section of paleofuture.com—it’s all apocalyptic stuff, because people were in an apocalyptic mood at the time. And although bad stuff’s certainly happened, we are still here.

Stimulating discussions going on here today, but you’ve also reminded me I have to run off and register to vote!

It does not. The TTI considers all traffic moving below 60mph to be "delayed." The speed limit is 55mph on most urban highways. Chicago has the shortest commutes of any large metro.