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jmecklenborg Dec 7, 2021 9:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 9470405)
talking about maybe a 2-3 foot diameter difference and obviously with a cut and cover construction method would make little difference.

Minor tunnel diameter differences can exponentially increase the volume of spoil removal and the volumes of steel and concrete necessary to line a tunnel. Pi is a big deal. There are online calculators that are fun to play with but show the terrifying reality of a 23-foot versus 21-foot diameter tunnel.

The new Second Ave. stations have mezzanines that run the full length of the platform (I think - I rode a Q train to the new terminus and back just to say I rode the new line but did not get off at the stations). Such mezzanines are pretty unique to NYC and the other big-time systems. PATH doesn't have them.

Busy Bee Dec 7, 2021 9:29 PM

I guess I should have elaborated. I suppose i meant in the big picture it makes little difference when a slight tbm diameter difference that makes a 4.1 billion dollar project a 4.3 billion dollar project.

jmecklenborg Dec 8, 2021 2:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 9470577)
I guess I should have elaborated. I suppose i meant in the big picture it makes little difference when a slight tbm diameter difference that makes a 4.1 billion dollar project a 4.3 billion dollar project.

I agree. Too much money is devoured by having to stop and have city engineers come by over and over again to inspect recent work. Not because of the modestly paid public workers but rather the small army of $2,000/day consultants who are paid one way or the other.

That said, I hadn't looked at a circumference calculator in awhile and I forgot that there is a 30% increase in spoil when comparing a 21 vs. 24-foot tunnel. A lot of metro systems operate beveled cars to allow them to travel through slightly narrower tunnels. NYC obviously didn't do that because the majority of the system is cut-and-cover.

Busy Bee Dec 8, 2021 3:26 AM

^ And that makes for a much more spacious and comfortable car as compared to a London Tube train, that is for sure. Just looking at Tube stock makes my neck hurt.

k1052 Dec 8, 2021 1:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg (Post 9470531)
The new Second Ave. stations have mezzanines that run the full length of the platform (I think - I rode a Q train to the new terminus and back just to say I rode the new line but did not get off at the stations). Such mezzanines are pretty unique to NYC and the other big-time systems. PATH doesn't have them.

Oversized stations are a significant cost driver. Especially when you're going deep like the MTA always does now.

Busy Bee Dec 8, 2021 2:23 PM

Its all about construction method. If you're building using cut and cover like the full length IND mezzanines, the larger stations are more affordable as you already have the street dug up and you are essentially constructing a two-story concrete structure instead of a one story structure. This becomes exponentially more costly with TBM construction since an enormous cavern is required to be mined and a much more complicated concrete structure fabricated all without access for heavy machinery from the street, long diagonal egress tunnels, the list goes on and on. And aside from the station size dynamic, tunnel boring also limits what kind of operational design is possible (or ideal) vis a vis flying junctions, 4-track cross platform stations, multiple dip-unders and fly-overs like we saw in the early 20th century because you are confined to the profile of the TBM, unless of course you want to do even more wildly expensive mining through bedrock beyond just the station caverns. To summerize, the MTA has to get back to cut and cover. A 21st century hybrid version like what LA is doing where the tunnels are bored but the station boxes are excavated and constructed while disturbing the surface street as little as possible by using temporary steel bridgework and lane diversions.

mrnyc Dec 8, 2021 7:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirectionNorth (Post 9470463)
It really is though, stations are the largest cost under the tangible (ie. construction) file.

well yeah depending on how they design them, how many stations they actually decide to build and if they continue the tbm boring east to st nicks or further, but unfortunately the straight up tangible design costs are not the biggest drivers for nyc construction costs.

its more about high costs at the start and then cumulative creeping costs -- handicap access is twice london costs and five times berlin and other systems; as mentioned above there is a tendency to overdesign and overbuild; questionable delays; and then there is the issue of guys standing around doing nothing and getting paid as we have seen too well lately for east side access, etc., etc..

basically we are talking about over regulation, severe lack of oversight and grift. :shrug:

jmecklenborg Dec 8, 2021 8:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9471559)
its more about high costs at the start and then cumulative creeping costs

A continuous phasing such as what they're doing in Los Angeles with the Purple Line mitigates some costs. They staggered three construction phases between the existing terminus and the VA. This means specific staff can migrate to a sequential construction package as it approaches the stage they recently gained experience in.

We're not smart, but if we were, they would have fully funded the entire project and begun the four Second Ave. phases in four sequential years. There are still three phases to build, but Phase 2 is already far ahead of Phases 3 and 4 in the environmental review and design phase. This means, if by some miracle the money to build the whole thing appears, they could (gasp!) hold off on beginning Phase 2 in order to set up a more orderly transition of staff to phases 3 and 4.

LA did mess up by not building the Purple Line all the way to Santa Monica as part of the current phasing. Now its eventual costs will be much higher.

mrnyc Dec 10, 2021 8:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg (Post 9471581)
A continuous phasing such as what they're doing in Los Angeles with the Purple Line mitigates some costs. They staggered three construction phases between the existing terminus and the VA. This means specific staff can migrate to a sequential construction package as it approaches the stage they recently gained experience in.

We're not smart, but if we were, they would have fully funded the entire project and begun the four Second Ave. phases in four sequential years. There are still three phases to build, but Phase 2 is already far ahead of Phases 3 and 4 in the environmental review and design phase. This means, if by some miracle the money to build the whole thing appears, they could (gasp!) hold off on beginning Phase 2 in order to set up a more orderly transition of staff to phases 3 and 4.

LA did mess up by not building the Purple Line all the way to Santa Monica as part of the current phasing. Now its eventual costs will be much higher.

you are right and of course that would be rational. but you are thinking like a taxpayer and not the mta. planning and operating as they do with little oversight is quite purposeful as it is how they extract maximum money. :shrug:

dchan Dec 10, 2021 8:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9473346)
you are right and of course that would be rational. but you are thinking like a taxpayer and not the mta. planning and operating as they do with little oversight is quite purposeful as it is how they extract maximum money. :shrug:

I was at happy hour with my coworkers last night, and one of them (who worked at MTA previously) noted that many of the bigger MTA projects are design-build. Theoretically, this saves money and improves communication, since the same firm will be designing and building the project. But it also means that only certain firms who have a large design and construction team are capable of bidding on these projects (such as AECOM and others). With a limited number of the same candidates vying for these contracts, big design-build projects are rife for graft and "unexpected" change orders.

mrnyc Dec 14, 2021 5:54 PM

at long last --- fare capping has arrived!



MTA to pilot weekly fare capping for OMNY next March

By Kevin Duggan
Posted on December 13, 2021


The change means that commuters on the subways, local buses, and Staten Island Railway will be charged a regular $2.75 per ride for the first 12 OMNY taps until they hit $33 — the price of a weekly unlimited MetroCard — and all subsequent rides within a seven-day period are free.


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/mta-pil...fare-cap-omny/

manchester united Dec 14, 2021 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9476128)
at long last --- fare capping has arrived!



MTA to pilot weekly fare capping for OMNY next March

By Kevin Duggan
Posted on December 13, 2021


The change means that commuters on the subways, local buses, and Staten Island Railway will be charged a regular $2.75 per ride for the first 12 OMNY taps until they hit $33 — the price of a weekly unlimited MetroCard — and all subsequent rides within a seven-day period are free.


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/mta-pil...fare-cap-omny/

Very interesing!

New York City FC wins the MLS Cup 2021! NY is blue!!!

mrnyc Dec 17, 2021 5:08 PM

hmm, seems like a nice idea:


Transit
Bolt move: MTA to build all-electric bus depot in Jamaica

By Kevin Duggan
Posted on December 14, 2021



The Metropolitan Transportation Authority plans to build its first all-electric bus depot in Jamaica, transit leaders announced at the existing depot in the southeastern Queens neighborhood on Tuesday.

“Transit is the antidote to global climate change,” said MTA’s acting Chairperson and CEO Janno Lieber during a Dec. 14 press conference with local leaders. “This is exactly the kind of investment New York needs to be able to build back better, as we all say, at this critical moment in transit.”

The agency will launch the search for contractors through a so-called Request for Qualification in March 2022, and expects the construction to take about 4.5 years for the $400 million project.

The new facility will house upward of 60 electric buses when it opens and eight zero-emissions people movers will charge and be dispatched from the site during construction, according to New York City Transit interim President Craig Cipriano.

The existing depot will stay open while the new one is built and NYCT will store buses in a new parking facility at nearby York college.


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/mta-to-...ot-in-jamaica/

jmecklenborg Dec 17, 2021 5:52 PM

A fake NYC subway entrance appeared this week on Vine St. in Cincinnati's Over-the-Rhine neighborhood. This fake staircase is about 4 blocks away from one of the city's real but never-used subway stations. I don't know if this was officially sanctioned or if an art student showed up and did this unannounced.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds

Busy Bee Dec 17, 2021 6:40 PM

^^^

Has all the signs of a film shoot. That seems more likely than the effort it would take just for that to be some guerilla art. Also if it was just art why would it be a NYC subway stair in Cincinnati?

mrnyc Dec 17, 2021 8:10 PM

i would guess that is a prop for a 1980s era movie? :shrug:

the entrances often still had the older font, but that's when the globes showed up.

https://nypost.com/wp-content/upload...trip=all&w=569

jmecklenborg Dec 17, 2021 8:16 PM

Mr. Google confirms that it is a film shoot:
https://www.citybeat.com/arts/oscar-...nnati-12325463

I'm wondering if that subway staircase was pulled from a prop shop as opposed to having been purpose-built for this film.

mrnyc Dec 19, 2021 4:32 PM

second ave subway phase II is hella ridiculously expensive, but you know, lookin good on a cost per rider basis lol — also its held up because trump:


https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...5ky-story.html

Busy Bee Dec 19, 2021 5:12 PM

:facepalm:


In the same week that gave us this story and the MTA blow-up doll HOV cheating employee, I just recently became aware that DOT is at this very moment filling in the Port Morris branch cut under the bridges through Melrose in lieu of preserving the right-of-way. If this isn't Exhibit A for the MTA's failure to plan for the future and secure provisions for future service I don't know what is. I understand it is still owned by CSX and other private property (and the city has foolishly already allowed encroaching development on the row) and any future program that sees ownership and use of this branch line by the MTA would be part of a multi-million dollar construction project, but it's a bad sign when you see not even a scant mention of future-proofing such a high potential infrastructure asset. Depressing.

mrnyc Dec 21, 2021 4:01 PM

hay gov, hows about the north shore sir extension to the bayonne light rail? -- nope, hochul wants to widen the outerbridge crossing:



Governor Kathy Hochul wants officials to study widening the Outerbridge Crossing connecting Staten Island to New Jersey to improve a “commuter headache” caused by congestion on the 93-year-old span.

“As it is currently built, the Outerbridge Crossing’s narrow lanes and inadequate traffic flow are a frequent commuter headache,” Hochul said in a statement released late Monday, Dec. 20. “With this legislation we hope to expedite the process of dramatically improving quality of life and enhancing safety for commuters from New York and New Jersey alike.”

The bill, sponsored by Republican Staten Island state legislators Andrew Lanza in the State Senate and Michael Reilly in the Assembly, orders the Port Authority to find out which adjacent properties the bi-state agency would have to seize in order to to widen the bridge.


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/governo...idge-crossing/


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