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PHX31 Oct 28, 2009 4:51 PM

Hopefully the variance fails and they have to landscape it, or just not use it... although it's pretty unused right now, so even if ASU can't call it their own, they could still easily have people park there.

Pretty funny that your HOA was concerned about runoff, considering topography in the area slopes from NE to SW... doesn't water run east to west down Fillmore when it rains? (Away from you guys from the parking lot).

Either way, screw ASU's parking lot.

Vicelord John Oct 28, 2009 5:01 PM

unless I'm wrong, west to east down fillmore would have it running into their building...? The parking lot is west of his building.

PHX31 Oct 28, 2009 5:19 PM

Oops, I meant east to west.

HooverDam Oct 28, 2009 6:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4528355)
Have you noticed the added pedestrian activities along Apache? The once blighted areas (much like 2nd/Roosevelt) have become safe and pedestrian friendly. It could only aid the small business in this area. Close to the deck park, perhaps people other than the homeless would enjoy the park.

Some of the new buildings around Apache are good, others are terrible. The Barrett Honors college dorms and Hassayampa Academic village are horrific. The height and density is nice but outside of that they look like Stalins wet dream.

The Vista Del Sol apartments are nice though, and whatever the apartments behind the Taco Bell are OK (though theyre a bit too grey for my personal taste) so if we got something like those Id be thrilled.

But I think the area has a decieving pedestrian friendliness. The area along the North side of Apache West of Rural isnt pedestrian friendly at all. Its just that when you have 70K young people who are willing and able to walk, and forced to park far away you end up with pedestrians. If you put those same honors dorms anywhere else in the city there wouldn't be near the same pedestrian activity.

glynnjamin Oct 28, 2009 6:35 PM

Apparently when they first renovated the building things were really bad. I'm not exactly sure (partially because I have an upper unit) but from what I've been told the street used to flood really bad and the curbs were low so the water just flooded up to the base of the building. There are basement windows below grade and the water would just pour in. The HOA sued the contractors and got them to build 1' walls around each of the basement window coves. They added landscaping and a bunch of other stuff and it pretty much did a good job. Then in like 2004 the city renovated 2nd Ave and added large storm drains and raised the curb height.

What generally happens during a bad rain (that massive hurricane last year was the last time) is that the storm drains back up and the intersection floods with over a foot of water. The water line will come all the way up to the property and even up to those 1ft retaining walls. The problem occurs as a car drives through the intersection creating a wake. That wave pushes a ton of water over the retaining walls and into the window coves which then begin to fill. We were helping neighbors bail water during the storm.

I suppose that any additional runoff from the lots would just amplify that problem. I don't know anything about the topography...looks pretty flat to me. But with the giant storm drains installed on every corner at that intersection, I believe the water is supposed to run toward that intersection. That intersection is significantly lower than say McKinley & 2nd ave or a hundred yards south of Fillmore on 2nd ave.

nickkoto Oct 28, 2009 7:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4528355)
Have you noticed the added pedestrian activities along Apache? The once blighted areas (much like 2nd/Roosevelt) have become safe and pedestrian friendly. It could only aid the small business in this area. Close to the deck park, perhaps people other than the homeless would enjoy the park.

Depends on which "student housing" you're talking about:

-The Barrett dorms and the Vue at Apache/Rural are in an area where it's never been unsafe to walk anyway (and the Barrett dorms do look like a prison and are of no value to anyone not living inside of them).

-Grigio Metro isn't student housing (I'm sure some live there, but it's ridiculously expensive and marketed towards a wider group).

-Campus Suites (a little further to the east) is on the edge of skid row. It's still partially under construction, but I don't really see it enhancing anything outside of its property line.


Personally, no I haven't noticed any added pedestrian activities to the blighted areas. Zero.

HooverDam Oct 31, 2009 2:14 AM

Not that its news to any of us, but here's the republics coverage of the new markets opening:

http://www.azcentral.com/community/p...arket1029.html

Quote:

New downtown Phoenix grocery market off and running
9 comments by Sadie Jo Smokey - Oct. 29, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
The wait is over. The first grocery store to open in downtown Phoenix in nearly 30 years is celebrating with sales, raffles, a silent auction and $45-per-person happy hour 5:30-7:30 p.m. Friday with Arizona wines and beer and light appetizers by Valley chefs.

The Phoenix Public Market Urban Grocery and Wine Bar opened at 14 E. Pierce St. this week to busy lunch crowds, curious downtown employees, Arizona State students and neighborhood residents.

Laurie Wistuver of El Mirage walked over on her lunch break. She picked up a package of pasta for dinner.

"It reminds me of a co-op from when I lived in Oregon," Wistuver said. "Higher-quality products that are fresh, organic. I like the breads and stuff. It's a nice atmosphere."

Shoppers craving locally grown or made-in-Arizona goods, from organic vegetables to wines and cheeses, no longer have to wait for the weekly farmers market to get their fill of lumpy squash, pungent bouquets of basil, bags of ugly tomatoes, a dozen free-range eggs or a loaf of rustic, multigrain artisan bread.

The urban grocery will provide all that, supports say.

Cindy Gentry, Community Food Connections director, said the grocery store is the next step for a movement that supports local farms and Arizona growers and producers that use fresh, seasonal ingredients and sustainable practices.

"I want this to be a real place where you can do your grocery shopping," Gentry said.

"We have things that real families can use. We're not Trader Joe's or Sprouts or Whole Foods, so we can't have their inventory. But we'll have staples, sugar, coffee and baby food."

The downtown grocer has little competition.

The last neighborhood supermarket south of Interstate 10 closed in 1981. And although an AJ's Fine Foods is slated to open near Central Avenue and Jefferson Street next summer, downtown shoppers are pleased to have a grocery store there now.

"I bought my pumpkin, I bought lunch, and some beans and radishes," said Lisa Takata of Phoenix. "This is the most exciting thing ever. This will be my grocery store."

Gentry said the 4-year-old downtown Phoenix Public Market, also run by Community Food Connections, will continue to sell produce and other goods Saturdays and Wednesdays.

The grocery store is open from 11 a.m. to 8 p.m. Tuesdays through Saturdays.

The non-profit Community Food Connections raised $530,000 to open the store and is in the process of raising the remaining $100,000, to cover operating costs of the Pierce Street building.

I went by the grocery store today and its quite nice. The interior of the building is absolutely stunningly beautiful. All of the shelves aren't quite full yet, its rather sparse product wise, but Im sure given some time thatll change.

They also had a little pamphlet that talked about their future plans which was to have a 7 day a week indoor-outdoor market like you see in most great cities. I hope someday the entire upside down L shaped lots bounded by Central, 1st, McKinley and Pierce are all part of the outdoor markets space on some sort of dual level structure.

Im taking my Archie and Edith Bunker like grandparents who live in Mesa on their first light rail ride tomorrow to the market and Matts Big Breakfast- wish me luck. Hopefully I can convince them that rail/downtown are safe and nice.

Vicelord John Oct 31, 2009 2:17 AM

I went to the market the other day on wednesday and the store I thought needed a couple things tweaked and it will be fine. Leaving out the sparsity of product because that will change, there is a 1" step from the store into the coffee space that people are going to trip over. I smell insurance problem. and the "wine bar" is delightfully shittastic.

HooverDam Nov 4, 2009 12:28 AM

http://www.azcentral.com/community/p...nting1104.html

Quote:

Volunteers to get hands on massive tree planting Saturday downtown
Nov. 3, 2009 03:55 PM
The Arizona Republic
More than 100 volunteers will get their hands dirty during a community tree planting Saturday in connection with Hands On Greater Phoenix Day for Downtown.

The tree planting, sponsored by Mayor Phil Gordon, is an opportunity for residents, families, businesses, students and visitors to connect with and take part in growth and development downtown.

Approximately 60 trees will be planted, including Arizona ash, evergreen elm and sissoo. The trees will provide shade and enhance the urban feel along Roosevelt Street, including the First Friday Art Walk area, and along Portland Street Park.

The planting locations are:


• Portland Parkway at Portland Street Park, west of First Avenue.


• Roosevelt Street and First Avenue, in front of Trinity Cathedral.


• Latham Street and Third Avenue, in front of the Puppet Theater.


• Garfield Street at Fifth and Sixth streets, part of the First Friday Art Walk area.

A block party hosted by Hands On Greater Phoenix will follow the planting, which is open to the public. To volunteer, e-mail mayor.rsvp@phoenix.gov.

Planting will be done from 8 to 11:30 a.m. Volunteers are to meet at 8 in the courtyard of Trinity Cathedral, 100 W. Roosevelt, which is serving as planting headquarters.

Parking is in the parking garage north of the church.
Well this is great news! Downtown is in desperate need of shade and while the economy is in the pooper Im glad to see small infrastructure things like this happening. I only wish we were planting 60 trees per weekend instead of it being rare and such a big deal. Also I find the idea that planting 60 trees is a 'massive' planting to be a bit of an overstatement there Republic.

PHX31 Nov 4, 2009 4:56 AM

Awesome! Will they also include proper watering systems?

HooverDam Nov 4, 2009 5:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX31 (Post 4539688)
Awesome! Will they also include proper watering systems?

Dunno whats in the article is all I know. Did the ones they installed on 5/6th St recently not have proper watering systems or something?

Speaking of those trees, they are looking nice, but can't the artsy types fucking clean up their planter strips? The dirt around some of the trees is still all dug up and messy, its so dusty and ugly down there still. Youd think visually inclined people like artists would want to put grass or something in those strips and make them look nice, plus it would help their business on non First Fridays by making it more welcoming. Its weird that they all leave their yards in such horrid condition.

Vicelord John Nov 4, 2009 6:50 AM

Grass is for conformists.

Leo the Dog Nov 4, 2009 3:37 PM

Can't have enough trees in Phx...the shade is like a mini oasis during the summer months.

Speaking of trees in DT, whats up with those bottle trees in the middle of the sidewalk around the Hyatt? That couldn't look worse, looks like a 5th grader designed that.

gymratmanaz Nov 4, 2009 4:50 PM

Hey! Don't put 5th graders down. They could design better than the Hyatt.

I agree. That area is such a waste and could be a fine space for a shaded cafe.

mwadswor Nov 5, 2009 4:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 4528537)
Some of the new buildings around Apache are good, others are terrible. The Barrett Honors college dorms and Hassayampa Academic village are horrific. The height and density is nice but outside of that they look like Stalins wet dream.

The Vista Del Sol apartments are nice though, and whatever the apartments behind the Taco Bell are OK (though theyre a bit too grey for my personal taste) so if we got something like those Id be thrilled.

But I think the area has a decieving pedestrian friendliness. The area along the North side of Apache West of Rural isnt pedestrian friendly at all. Its just that when you have 70K young people who are willing and able to walk, and forced to park far away you end up with pedestrians. If you put those same honors dorms anywhere else in the city there wouldn't be near the same pedestrian activity.

I think ASU really screwed up with the honor's college and Hassayampa dorms. I don't even care that the rest of the building is butt ugly or that it's largely gated off so you can't cut through there, but the lack of any ground level retail is really inexcusable. Vista Del Sol has a good amount of ground level retail out front and Apache is a much calmer street through there with the parking lane, median, and plenty of lights. Had ASU put ground level retail on both the north and south side of Apache (instead of just the south side) that area of Apache could have really been in a great position to be pedestrian friendly. Not to mention that the Vista Del Sol retail would have been a lot less cut off seeming and a lot more desireable if it had a counterpart on the north side of the street. Obviously, Apache through there is never going to be Mill Ave... unless ASU decides to let bars get built in its dorms... but it still could have been a fun little walkable, shopping street.

On the same subject, wtf is with that little postage stamp park at Rural and Apache? Because of the trees and the way the sidewalks or oriented it's completely cut off from the street, and because of the gates it's completely cut off from the rest of the honor's college complex. They should have either fenced it off completely so it's at least accessible from the honor's college complex, or found a significantly better way to integrate it into/make it more easily accessible from the street. As it stands now it's so innaccessible and probably going to see so little traffic that it's just going to become hobo central. It's so bad that it's worse than if the honor's college complex had just made absolutely no effort and just continued the building all the way to the corner.

phoenixwillrise Nov 6, 2009 4:48 AM

Why the hell they haven't planted trees for years downtown, I have no idea.
Could you imagine how it would look and how more inviting it would be had they planted 25-30 years ago? Same applies to Encanto Park and the Phoenix Zoo. You can never go wrong planting more trees.

HooverDam Nov 6, 2009 5:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise (Post 4543783)
Why the hell they haven't planted trees for years downtown, I have no idea.
Could you imagine how it would look and how more inviting it would be had they planted 25-30 years ago? Same applies to Encanto Park and the Phoenix Zoo. You can never go wrong planting more trees.

Agreed 100%. At the Phoenix General plan meeting on Monday they asked us to come with ideas about what Phx can be in 2050 and how we can get it there. Im going to suggest the city undertake a public/private initiative to plant 50,000 trees a year (that would give us about 2 million by 2050) to help reduce the heat island, improve air quality, beautify the city and provide shade which leads to more walking, less heat stroke, etc.

Will see if that idea goes over well or not, Im sure some rube will say "We don't have enough water."

Leo the Dog Nov 6, 2009 12:08 PM

Yeah we need more trees dt, actually I should say, we need more GOOD trees dt. How about ones that provide dense shade? Ones that actually provide relief to the pedestrians from the hot sun? Ones that actually cool off their surroundings overnight through transpiration?

We don't need mesquites, bottle trees, shoe string acacia etc...

mwadswor Nov 6, 2009 3:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4544081)
Yeah we need more trees dt, actually I should say, we need more GOOD trees dt. How about ones that provide dense shade? Ones that actually provide relief to the pedestrians from the hot sun? Ones that actually cool off their surroundings overnight through transpiration?

We don't need mesquites, bottle trees, shoe string acacia etc...

Shade trees are good, but how many desert trees are good shade trees? I'll be the "some rube:" there are better uses for our limited water than 2 million non-native trees.

I agree that a lot of our city is unnecessarily barren of any plant life, but the solution to that is to plant millions of native plants. People on this board talk about Phoenix being bland and needing more unique architecture, landmarks, etc., but what makes Phoenix more unique than its plantlife? Show me any other major city in the world where saguaros grow. I know they don't provide any shade, but if you're trying to make something unique and memorable about Phoenix, there should be a saguaro at every street intersection, at least in copper square (is that even an officially used term any more?). It is possible to beautify Phoenix with loads of trees and plantlife, and its a great idea, but they need to be desert plants.

Oh, and transpiration involves two parts. It cools the air temperature, yes, but it also, by definition, raises the humidity levels around the tree. Slightly for one tree, but compounded over millions of trees and you could seriously jack the humidity in the valley, or at least the areas where they are densely planted. Not only are these trees going to guzzle water (the water for the transpiration has to come from somewhere... desert trees tend to have waxy leaves that limit transpiration), but they're going to be raising the humidity levels of the valley. I've lived in humid cities, and I can tell you that I will take a 120 degree day with 9% humidity any day over a 90 degree day with 100% humidity.

phoenixwillrise Nov 6, 2009 4:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwadswor (Post 4544206)
Shade trees are good, but how many desert trees are good shade trees? I'll be the "some rube:" there are better uses for our limited water than 2 million non-native trees.

I agree that a lot of our city is unnecessarily barren of any plant life, but the solution to that is to plant millions of native plants. People on this board talk about Phoenix being bland and needing more unique architecture, landmarks, etc., but what makes Phoenix more unique than its plantlife? Show me any other major city in the world where saguaros grow. I know they don't provide any shade, but if you're trying to make something unique and memorable about Phoenix, there should be a saguaro at every street intersection, at least in copper square (is that even an officially used term any more?). It is possible to beautify Phoenix with loads of trees and plantlife, and its a great idea, but they need to be desert plants.

Oh, and transpiration involves two parts. It cools the air temperature, yes, but it also, by definition, raises the humidity levels around the tree. Slightly for one tree, but compounded over millions of trees and you could seriously jack the humidity in the valley, or at least the areas where they are densely planted. Not only are these trees going to guzzle water (the water for the transpiration has to come from somewhere... desert trees tend to have waxy leaves that limit transpiration), but they're going to be raising the humidity levels of the valley. I've lived in humid cities, and I can tell you that I will take a 120 degree day with 9% humidity any day over a 90 degree day with 100% humidity.

Way over my head, but all I want is trees, whether they be desert or not just gives us shade. If it's more appropriate to make them desert trees so be it, just start planting the damm things already.

glynnjamin Nov 6, 2009 4:52 PM

The other problem with non-native trees is their root structure. I'm sure you've all seen what the trees here in AZ do. Instead of their roots going deep, they spread wide and stay near the surface due to the dense clay. These roots do quite a number on infrastructure (sidewalks, streets, water lines) as they grow. Those little palo verdes don't do much for shade but their roots don't rip up the street.

I'm still all for more shade trees but they need to be planted properly.

HooverDam Nov 6, 2009 7:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwadswor (Post 4544206)
Shade trees are good, but how many desert trees are good shade trees? I'll be the "some rube:" there are better uses for our limited water than 2 million non-native trees.

Who said anything about non native? I didnt :D I am a member at the Desert Botanical Garden and think the plant life of the Sonoran Desert is amazingly beauitful, Id want to plant primarily native or other drought tolerant plants.

Im the one who always bitches about the lack of Saguaros downtown and the way Phoenix doesn't embrace its physical location and tries to look like Cincinnati too often. I hate the far flung suburbs but one thing areas like Desert Ridge do well is have nice densely planted xeriscaped medians and sidewalks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwadswor (Post 4544206)
Oh, and transpiration involves two parts. It cools the air temperature, yes, but it also, by definition, raises the humidity levels around the tree. Slightly for one tree, but compounded over millions of trees and you could seriously jack the humidity in the valley, or at least the areas where they are densely planted. Not only are these trees going to guzzle water (the water for the transpiration has to come from somewhere... desert trees tend to have waxy leaves that limit transpiration), but they're going to be raising the humidity levels of the valley. I've lived in humid cities, and I can tell you that I will take a 120 degree day with 9% humidity any day over a 90 degree day with 100% humidity.

I woudlnt worry too much about that. Go to neighborhoods like Encanto or Arcadia in the summer, they're not much more humid. In fact their much cooler and while probably a bit more humid its an OK trade off.

Also about this whole idea keep in mind its spaced out over 40 years. Its not like theyd plant 2 million trees tomorrow, so Id hope we could do it smartly and plan it properly. Find plants that dont use too much water, provide shade and don't tear up sidewalks, it can't be that hard. Finally, Im perfectly willing to trade 50,000 (or whatever the equivalent in water terms would be) new residents for a shadier, cooler, more beautiful city.

gymratmanaz Nov 6, 2009 10:20 PM

Who knows anything specific on the CHASE BANK building redux? Does anyone know what the new landscape/courtyard design will be?

mwadswor Nov 6, 2009 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 4544654)
Who said anything about non native? I didnt :D I am a member at the Desert Botanical Garden and think the plant life of the Sonoran Desert is amazingly beauitful, Id want to plant primarily native or other drought tolerant plants.

Im the one who always bitches about the lack of Saguaros downtown and the way Phoenix doesn't embrace its physical location and tries to look like Cincinnati too often. I hate the far flung suburbs but one thing areas like Desert Ridge do well is have nice densely planted xeriscaped medians and sidewalks.

I was referring to the people talking about dense shade dt. I'm not a botanical expert, I just don't think I've ever seen a native plant that would provide what I would call dense shade. As a member of the botanical garden, do you know of any native plants that would qualify as good shade trees? (it's hard to tell when typing so I'll clarify, I'm not being a smartass, I legitimately don't know). I would love to be proven wrong, I just don't know of any native shade trees.

NorthScottsdale Nov 6, 2009 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwadswor (Post 4545056)
I was referring to the people talking about dense shade dt. I'm not a botanical expert, I just don't think I've ever seen a native plant that would provide what I would call dense shade. As a member of the botanical garden, do you know of any native plants that would qualify as good shade trees? (it's hard to tell when typing so I'll clarify, I'm not being a smartass, I legitimately don't know). I would love to be proven wrong, I just don't know of any native shade trees.

Mesquite trees provide a lot of shade.. more so than palo verdes

HooverDam Nov 7, 2009 6:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwadswor (Post 4545056)
I was referring to the people talking about dense shade dt. I'm not a botanical expert, I just don't think I've ever seen a native plant that would provide what I would call dense shade. As a member of the botanical garden, do you know of any native plants that would qualify as good shade trees? (it's hard to tell when typing so I'll clarify, I'm not being a smartass, I legitimately don't know). I would love to be proven wrong, I just don't know of any native shade trees.

Haha I just actually got a membership this week, so Im no expert....yet! But there are a lot of trees there that provide pretty good shade. The Sonoran trees that grow in the riparian areas like cottonwoods provide a lot of dense shade but obviously require more water however theyre resistant to monsoons. Theres also a lot of non native trees that are low water usage that work OK here like Chinese elm.

Like mentioned above, mesquites do a pretty darn good job (though theyre not the prettiest tree in the world) look at the big mesquite basque near the County Courthouse (fun fact the current location of downtown was chosen in part due to its adjacency to a mesquite basque).

Also if you look at the sidewalks along Scottsdale Road in front of SkySong theyve done an excellent job w/ just Palo Verdes. They more filter the light and not block it out but theyve planted so many and in a way that its very nice to walk in during the summer.

Planning it all out so youve got the trees in the right spots, man made shade structures, arcades, awnings, low UV materials, etc and you can make a big difference. Luckily the Urban Form Zoning has plans for all that stuff laid out, we just need to get it adopted sometime soon.

Leo the Dog Nov 7, 2009 1:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwadswor (Post 4544206)
Oh, and transpiration involves two parts. It cools the air temperature, yes, but it also, by definition, raises the humidity levels around the tree. Slightly for one tree, but compounded over millions of trees and you could seriously jack the humidity in the valley, or at least the areas where they are densely planted. Not only are these trees going to guzzle water (the water for the transpiration has to come from somewhere... desert trees tend to have waxy leaves that limit transpiration), but they're going to be raising the humidity levels of the valley. I've lived in humid cities, and I can tell you that I will take a 120 degree day with 9% humidity any day over a 90 degree day with 100% humidity.

A mister does the same exact thing. It isn't going to turn Phx into Miami. This is a comment I would have expected on AZCentral. Its like saying, we need to stop building swimming pools because its becoming a swamp here. Phoenix actually used to have much more turf and shade trees in its past. Y'know, back when it used to cool off at night.

The trees would have zero effect on the humidity level here. Yes they do release water through their leaves at night, and yes it does cool off their surroundings. Arcadia cools off to say 75 degrees, while DT is baking at 88, which would you prefer?

PhxPavilion Nov 7, 2009 1:35 PM

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...etallchase.jpg

I wanted to see what Chase would look like as a supertall. :D :shrug:

combusean Nov 7, 2009 3:12 PM

Eep. Freaking horrid.

Not dissing the photoshop job--it looks really accurate--but wow, I couldn't imagine something more out of place and weirder.

I firmly believe that the water used by planting even non-native species would be made up substantially if not an ultimate net positive by reductions in the heat island effect. Anybody who bitches about how much water grass uses hasn't walked downtown on a summer's night and felt the substantial cooling differences provided by even a tiny plot of green compared to rocks and asphalt. It's worth it.

mwadswor Nov 7, 2009 9:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4545936)
This is a comment I would have expected on AZCentral

That's uncalled for. Let me be more specific then. It's this post that I was referring to when I brought up non-native trees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4544081)
We don't need mesquites, bottle trees, shoe string acacia etc...

I agree with Hoover that mesquites provide fine shade, but since you used them as a specific example of what you don't want I assumed you meant non-native trees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4545936)
A mister does the same exact thing. It isn't going to turn Phx into Miami. This is a comment I would have expected on AZCentral. Its like saying, we need to stop building swimming pools because its becoming a swamp here. Phoenix actually used to have much more turf and shade trees in its past. Y'know, back when it used to cool off at night.

The trees would have zero effect on the humidity level here. Yes they do release water through their leaves at night, and yes it does cool off their surroundings. Arcadia cools off to say 75 degrees, while DT is baking at 88, which would you prefer?

Yes a mister does the exact same thing, and no, I don't like them either. I hate walking down Mill when they have all the misters out, it just makes it muggy and disgusting feeling. And yes, I do think we need to build fewer swimming pools here.

Trees do not have zero effect. Increasing humidity is precisely how they cool off the air around them (evaporating water absorbs heat), it's not magic. No, it's not much, but compounded over millions of trees over the entire valley and it starts to build up. It's not going to turn Phoenix into Miami, but it sure as hell could turn Phoenix in june into Phoenix in August. Maybe it's just me, but Phoenix is absolutely miserable when the monsoon's here in august, I'll take 110 in June any day over 110 in August.

The heat island is caused by many factors, but humidity is actually a part of it. Part of the reason it cools off less now than it used to is exactly because of the swimming pools and country clubs that raise the humidity, which acts like an insulator and keeps the heat in at night. It's the same reason the temperature doesn't drop as much on a cloudy night. Sure it feels better right next to the grass or right under the tree, but it also affects the larger climate of the valley. Everything you do has a consequence. Maybe you think the consequence is worth it, but it's asinine to ignore the optential consequences.

That really wasn't my main point in the first place though. The main reasons to stick with native plants wherever possible are water usage and to a lesser extent, aesthetic (I like cactuses and mesquites and palo verdes... that's why I live in Phoenix).

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean (Post 4546013)
I firmly believe that the water used by planting even non-native species would be made up substantially if not an ultimate net positive by reductions in the heat island effect. Anybody who bitches about how much water grass uses hasn't walked downtown on a summer's night and felt the substantial cooling differences provided by even a tiny plot of green compared to rocks and asphalt. It's worth it.

Non-native trees use substantially more water than native trees like mesquite trees. You can plant and cool the area off using native species far more efficiently. Phoenix uses drastically more water than is replenished. We need to be finding ways to reduce our water usage, not ways to use more. It's like getting your paycheck and thinking of the coolest new stuff you can buy rather than paying attention to your growing credit card bills. I'm all for planting more... lots more... trees around the city, but they need to be low water, preferably native trees.

Jsmscaleros Nov 7, 2009 9:57 PM

In addition to saving water, native flora also pays homage to the geography in which we live. The prolific use of non-native species detracts from our city's identity as a desert community. If people want more local culture and identity in this town, a great place to start is by bring Sonoran plants back into our urban environment.

Mature Palo Verde and Mesquite provide more than adequate shade, bloom beautifully in the spring (Palo Verde turn an amazing yellow which can be striking in large numbers), and are distinctly part of our local landscape.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3601/...f3ac76d2e3.jpg

This is a shot from my flickr last spring. Don't try and tell me that tree doesn't provide good shade.

oliveurban Nov 7, 2009 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jsmscaleros (Post 4546527)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3601/...f3ac76d2e3.jpg
This is a shot from my flickr last spring. Don't try and tell me that tree doesn't provide good shade.

Maybe here in the desert our definition of "good shade" has been blurred, but actually, they really don't.

As touched on earlier, they can help filter the sun's light, but not entirely shade us from it. With Palo Verdes you either need them grouped in tight proximity together or they need to have several years growth on them before legitimate shade can be provided. But again, even in those instances, it is rarely solid shade. Architecturally, Palo Verdes can be attractive trees, with their thin, snake-like, windy branches, but when it comes to genuine shade or effective shelter from the sun's heat, there are definitely better trees - including native types.

Jsmscaleros Nov 7, 2009 11:57 PM

Many shade structures are permeable so some light can reach the ground - they still are quite cool beneath and are effective year-round when temps are lower:

From Google:
http://www.bamboohabitat.com.au/imag...o3_gazebos.jpg

http://woodsshop.com/kits4/images/Ja...tructure_c.jpg

http://www.theartoffice.com/pdcpc-sh...cture-img1.jpg

http://www.library.unlv.edu/arch/aia...03/b03054t.jpg

http://www.calown.com/images/shade_structures1.jpg

Compare the shade provided by these mature Palo Verde:

http://taylormadedesigns.typepad.com...e577970c-320wi

http://www.mesa-goodlife.com/images/PaloVerde.jpg

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/phot.../cercidium.jpg

Plenty of other desert trees will do just fine, as well.

SunDevil Nov 8, 2009 12:24 AM

You know what else provides shade?

Lots and lots of tall buildings! http://www.evilbore.com/forum/Smileys/default/hyper.gif

Locofresh55 Nov 8, 2009 2:42 AM

I agree...that's how it's done in Manhattan. Granted, Phoenix will probably never be like Manhattan but there are places in Phoenix that you can strategically place taller buildings and provide great shade. Palo verdes and mesquite trees get pretty damn tall for the lack of rain that they get. Compare that to other places in desert climates worldwide and you'll be happy to see the amount of trees in the Sonoran desert.

HX_Guy Nov 8, 2009 4:52 AM

Aren't Palo Verdes horrible at resisting high winds associated with the monsoon when they are trimmed into the tree shape that we prefer them in? I always see them uprooted in parking lots. The tree naturally is more bush like if you look at them in the desert.

Locofresh55 Nov 8, 2009 5:12 AM

Haven't seen palo verdes get knocked over much compare to mesquite trees. But here in Tucson I have seen the bigger trees that are like 300 years old and they are fairly tall and their roots are well established. My Palo Verde I just planted last year sits about 15 feet tall and is growing fairly well. My two mesquite trees that were planted when I bought my house in 2006 are about 20 plus ft tall. You are correct HX guy, they are more like a desert bush but they can still grow 20-40 ft high so that's gotta be better than nothing like in the Sahara desert or even the mojave desert.

I read that the Sonoran desert is the "wettest" desert in the world with "two" monsoon seasons.

HooverDam Nov 8, 2009 7:40 AM

I think we can all agree the city and downtown need more trees and thats the bottom line. Im more in the go for native plants due to the low water usage and unique look camp, but its whatever. If the city ever embarked on a plan to plant 50K a year I doubt they'd be 100% native. Maybe some experts could figure out a good formula like 40% native, 40% non native but low water use and 20% 'traditional' or something.

I do agree that the filtered light does a good enough job, keeps the sidewalks from getting too hot, etc. Keep in mind that a lot of the Palo Verdes planted downtown and around town arent at maturity since the trend to go to xeriscaping is so recent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gymratmanaz (Post 4545036)
Who knows anything specific on the CHASE BANK building redux? Does anyone know what the new landscape/courtyard design will be?

Uh did I miss something? Was there official news that building was going under renovations?

EDIT: Also on a completely unrelated note: I was driving by the (quite lovely) new University of Phoenix buildings on the 10 today and I got to thinking, does anyone else find it strange that UofP doesn't have any Downtown presence? Their focus seems to be on a lot of night classes, working adults, etc. so it seems like being adjacent to downtown would be a smart move for them. I know since the economy is down and they just spent a lot of money on those new buildings its not likely to happen anytime soon, but it would seem wise to me for the City to try to work to lure them to build a downtown campus. I know they offer both business and nursing programs & both of those could seemingly work well downtown.

gymratmanaz Nov 8, 2009 1:30 PM

Chase building is redoing their outdoor landscaping. They are taking out all of the dirt and plants from the courtyard and big planting walls. They have jackhammered out some stairs. I saw them bringing in pallets of cement bags. I have not found anyone who can tell me what the plan is. I sure wish they would totally remove those walls that surround the block. Remove them and make it a plaza that is more open to the public. It could be a great space.

NIXPHX77 Nov 8, 2009 6:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locofresh55 (Post 4547017)
I read that the Sonoran desert is the "wettest" desert in the world with "two" monsoon seasons.

Yes, it is the desert w/ the most rainfall, thankfully. it has 2 rainy seasons (one of which is monsoon.)

And I totally agree w/ you Hoover RE: UofP and have thought the same thing. i think the city should really pursue other higher education facilities such as it did w/ ASU, such as a Catholic univ. i think we are the largest city without one. how about resurrecting the really old plan to have a BYU Campus here?

HX_Guy Nov 9, 2009 12:21 AM

Cartel Coffee is Expanding to Downtown Phoenix
By Michele Laudig in Chow Bella
Fri., Nov. 6 2009 @ 4:24PM
cartelwall.jpg

It's a coffee Renaissance in downtown.

Just got the lowdown from the guys at Tempe's Cartel Coffee Lab that they're opening a second location in the heart of Downtown, at 1st Street and Washington (right across the street from the new CityScape development). The timing is hazy, because they have some construction to do to get the space ready, but hopefully they'll set up shop by the end of the year.

Cartel joins an ever-growing roster of hip coffee hangouts in the area -- two Royal Coffee Bars, two Fair Trade Cafes, Conspire, the soon-to-open Giant Coffee, and the also soon-to-open second location of Lola Coffee.

People, we are gonna be wired for the 21st Century.

bwonger06 Nov 9, 2009 3:13 AM

Awesome, love Cartel and their cafe excellentes.

Hopefully they take up a big empty lot and attach a huge garage door like they have in their tempe location. I do not know the downtown coffee situation, but hopefully this connects the roosevelt crowd and brings some much needed foot/bike traffic between the two areas.

Vicelord John Nov 9, 2009 3:15 AM

What big empty lots do you know of at 1st and washington?

Tito714 Nov 9, 2009 3:37 AM

I think he means the parking lot. but i highly doubt it's going to be there. I was thinking more towards First Watch and BK or at the ground floor of Phelps Dodge.

Vicelord John Nov 9, 2009 3:48 AM

Nyny deli was an epic fail wasn't it?

Leo the Dog Nov 9, 2009 3:09 PM

About the U of P downtown location idea...they could easily rent space at OCPE. I was thinking that ASU could locate offices and classrooms there as well if they need to expand further.

Suffolk University in Boston has classrooms in a highrise on the 28th floor, ASU could do the same (or U of P).

wissundevil06 Nov 9, 2009 3:43 PM

I am a current ASU student living in Tempe, and have been part of this forum for awhile. I know there are a lot of great places, specifically affordable studios, to rent in downtown phoenix. The only problem is a lot of these places aren't advertised on the internet. I was wondering if I could have some ideas for some affordable studios in the downtown area? Thanks

Tempe_Duck Nov 9, 2009 6:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4548816)
About the U of P downtown location idea...they could easily rent space at OCPE. I was thinking that ASU could locate offices and classrooms there as well if they need to expand further.

Suffolk University in Boston has classrooms in a highrise on the 28th floor, ASU could do the same (or U of P).

If I remember correctly, ASU was part of the original plan for the building. It was going to be the tallest in the state. I don't remember if they were talking about putting classrooms/offices or dorms into it. But they pulled out to do their own thing, i guess it was to expensive for them.

glynnjamin Nov 9, 2009 9:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wissundevil06 (Post 4548855)
I am a current ASU student living in Tempe, and have been part of this forum for awhile. I know there are a lot of great places, specifically affordable studios, to rent in downtown phoenix. The only problem is a lot of these places aren't advertised on the internet. I was wondering if I could have some ideas for some affordable studios in the downtown area? Thanks

Check out the Casitas on 5th Ave & Roosevelt. Lots of hot ASU girls live there plus it's a short walk to the campus & the LRT.

I think they are represented through Downtown Phoenix Rentals or something like that.

HooverDam Nov 9, 2009 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 4548816)
About the U of P downtown location idea...they could easily rent space at OCPE. I was thinking that ASU could locate offices and classrooms there as well if they need to expand further.

Suffolk University in Boston has classrooms in a highrise on the 28th floor, ASU could do the same (or U of P).

Yah I was thinking the Phelps Dodge tower would be a good place for a downtown UofP campus actually. Since Freeport McMoran is going over to OCPE and the Dodge tower is going to be somewhat empty now. Either way, its just a silly idea that'll never exist outside my brain sadly.


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