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-   -   CHICAGO | 130 N Franklin | 751 FT | 51 FLOORS (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=199537)

left of center Jan 14, 2022 6:51 PM

If Chase ends up choosing this lot, lets hope that the proposed building will end up being higher than 751 ft as initially proposed.

Do we know what the maximum height and density that would be allowed on this parcel is? I assume this is zoned DC-16/downtown core and has a pretty high FAR/height limits on it.

Suburban Shadow Jan 14, 2022 7:25 PM

130 N. Franklin is PD1293

The documents show base zoning of DC-16 would allow them a
1,046,112 sq. ft building.

They have some bonuses that allow a FAR of 20.502 which allows
1,340,463 sq. ft.

As for height, I thought anything over 500ft has to be approved by the City,
so I do not think there is an specific height limit.

Zapatan Jan 14, 2022 9:06 PM

^^ Does that include lobby or mechanical too?

Salesforce Tower in SF is 1.4 MSF and One Vanderbilt in NYC is 1.75 MSF

1.34 could yield a ~1k foot office tower these days

Steely Dan Jan 14, 2022 9:26 PM

^ or FAR more likely in Chicago's case, it could end up being a 50 story, 727' building like the new BMO Tower, which has ~1.5M SF.

It's important to remember that Chicago hasn't built an office tower with a roof height north of 1,000' since 1974.

BVictor1 Jan 14, 2022 10:15 PM

^^The developers can also purchase more FAR if they want or need. That's how the Neighborhood Opportunity Fund coffers get filled.

munchymunch Jan 14, 2022 10:19 PM

Regardless of height, if they keep the kreuck+sexton design this would be my personal favorite of office buildings built in the past 10 years.

Zapatan Jan 15, 2022 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 9503696)
^ or FAR more likely in Chicago's case, it could end up being a 50 story, 727' building like the new BMO Tower, which has ~1.5M SF.

I may be exaggerating but the BMO site looks to be about twice the area of 130 N Franklin, it's a pretty fat tower.

I think 1.5 MSF would normally be a lot taller than that.


Quote:

It's important to remember that Chicago hasn't built an office tower with a roof height north of 1,000' since 1974.
Sure, but there's a first (or second) time for everything. Vista and OSC are among the tallest roofs in the city and were just completed. Maybe this trend can shift to offices too.

bhawk66 Jan 15, 2022 12:31 AM

Not to be a Debbie Downer, Zap, but I think those days are over. There is just no need for office buildings of that height anymore. NY is an outlier. Times have changed. The work place has changed. Doubt we'll ever see another office building over 1000' in Chicago in our lifetime.

Zapatan Jan 15, 2022 1:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhawk66 (Post 9503878)
Not to be a Debbie Downer, Zap, but I think those days are over. There is just no need for office buildings of that height anymore. NY is an outlier. Times have changed. The work place has changed. Doubt we'll ever see another office building over 1000' in Chicago in our lifetime.

Maybe, but even places like SF and Philly have built ~1k office towers relatively recently.

There is a limit where buildings stop being economical after a certain height, but I think it's around the 1000 range.

Maybe Chase will go for a mixed use building?

Steely Dan Jan 15, 2022 1:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapatan (Post 9503868)

I think 1.5 MSF would normally be a lot taller than that.

chicago has built 17 major office towers so far this century. here's how they shake out on height and square footage.


1. Salesforce Tower --- 2023 - 850' - 1.6M SF
2. 110 N Wacker ------ 2020 - 817' - 1.5m SF
3. 300 N LaSalle ------ 2008 - 785' - 1.3M SF
4. BCBS Tower -------- 2010 - 744' - 1.6M SF
5. River Point --------- 2017 - 732' - 1.0M SF
6. BMO Tower --------- 2021 - 727' - 1.5M SF
7. 150 N Riverside ---- 2017 - 724' - 1.2M SF
8. 111 S Wacker ------ 2005 - 681' - 1.5M SF
9. 71 S Wacker ------- 2005 - 679' - 1.8M SF
10. UBS Tower ------- 2001 - 652' - 1.4M SF
11. 155 N Wacker ---- 2009 - 638' - 1.2M SF
12. 353 N Clark ------ 2009 - 623' - 1.2M SF
13. Citadel Center --- 2003 - 580' - 1.5M SF
14. One S Dearborn - 2005 - 571 - 0.8M SF
15. CNA Center ------ 2018 - 517' - 0.8M SF
16. 191 N Wacker --- 2002 - 516' - 0.7M SF
17. 540 W Madison -- 2003 - 453' - 1.1M SF

source: SF figures are approximate and are pulled from a variety of online sources. height figures are CTBUH.


all of the above are 21st century variations on the "form follows finance" theme.

chicago office tower developers do not spend more than they have to to get a solid ROI.





Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapatan (Post 9503896)

Maybe, but even places like SF and Philly have built ~1k office towers relatively recently.

that philly tower uses an egregiously tall spire to get over 1,000', and salesforce SF uses a 170' tall unoccupied rooftop video screen dealie to get there.

the occupied heights for those two towers are only 876' and 901', respectively.

chicago office tower developers have not been keen on paying for those kinds of non-returning height-increasing rooftop extravagances for roughly 3 decades now.





Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapatan (Post 9503896)

Maybe Chase will go for a mixed use building?

highly unlikely.

chicubs111 Jan 15, 2022 2:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapatan (Post 9503896)
Maybe, but even places like SF and Philly have built ~1k office towers relatively recently.

There is a limit where buildings stop being economical after a certain height, but I think it's around the 1000 range.

Maybe Chase will go for a mixed use building?

^ 2 Prudential plaza is basically a 1000ft building... I cant see how Chicago developers are so keen on recycling the same designs over and over...I understand the bottom line is making a profit but times are changing regarding office space. The large floorplates with having company occupying whole floors is not as desirable with the Hybrid work environment. More boutique office space with perhaps smaller floorplates and higher ceiling heights are a very realistic possibility and we could start seeing buildings that are 1.2- 1.6 million square feet in the 900ft plus range.

The Lurker Jan 15, 2022 9:37 AM

Merch Mart is colossal at 4 msf but only ~325' tall.
Old Post office is another great example. Obviously something on this site would have to be taller but you get my point.

OPO is ~2.5 msf and 95% leased already. Combine that with the towers on the river also performing well and all the stuff in Fulton Market and you have well over 10 msf absorbed in 5 years. There is clearly a case for another 2+ msf building in Chicago but no guarantee it would be a supertall or even close.

chicubs111 Jan 15, 2022 1:11 PM

I never realize 71 South wacker is 1.8 million sq ft...thats huge...Yea chicago is def super conservative on height relative to sq footage...if this was NY you basically add 200 ft to all those heights for that size space relative.

Zapatan Jan 16, 2022 2:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 9503897)
chicago has built 17 major office towers so far this century. here's how they shake out on height and square footage.

Chicago does have a lot of fat buildings (and lower ceilings) but it seems the lot for 130 N Franklin is pretty small, not sure how it stacks up exactly compared to the others.

Quote:

that philly tower uses an egregiously tall spire to get over 1,000', and salesforce SF uses a 170' tall unoccupied rooftop video screen dealie to get there.

the occupied heights for those two towers are only 876' and 901', respectively.

chicago office tower developers have not been keen on paying for those kinds of non-returning height-increasing rooftop extravagances for roughly 3 decades now.
True but vanity height is pretty common nowadays (and always sort of has been).

No building outside NYC or Chicago has an occupied floor past 300 meters, only the tallest buildings of LA and Houston get extremely close.

I'd still consider Salesfroce a legit 1k footer and the two Philly towers have a roof just under 1k (974' and 996' respectively)

Just saying that an office building like Salesforce or Comcast wouldn't be totally out of the question if the stars aligned right. If it can happen in those cities it can happen in Chicago.

Chase's new headquarters in NYC show us they like to ball out lol

Quote:

highly unlikely.
What would be their reasoning for not going mixed use?

Steely Dan Jan 16, 2022 2:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapatan (Post 9504595)
Chicago does have a lot of fat buildings (and lower ceilings) but it seems the lot for 130 N Franklin is pretty small, not sure how it stacks up exactly compared to the others.

It's a half-block site in the loop. It is not small. It's actually quite large. A 1.3M SF office tower there will most likely end up in the same 600 - 800' zone that all other recent Chicago office towers of similar size have landed in.




Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapatan (Post 9504595)
True but vanity height is pretty common nowadays (and always sort of has been).

Vanity height is actually extremely uncommon (more like completely non-existent) on every single major office tower built in Chicago over the past 3 decades.





Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapatan (Post 9504595)
Just saying that an office building like Salesforce or Comcast wouldn't be totally out of the question if the stars aligned right. If it can happen in those cities it can happen in Chicago.

Nothing is ever totally out of the question, but smart people tend to make bets on the future that are informed by the events of the past.





Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapatan (Post 9504595)
Chase's new headquarters in NYC show us they like to ball out

Chicago is not NYC, and any new office tower that Chase might occupy in Chicago will not be their corporate HQ tower.

And that also helps explain why a Salesforce SF or Comcast Philly outcome is unlikely here. Those examples were both companies sparing no expense to build big giant fancy and expensive HQ edifices to themselves in their hometowns.

Chicago has nowhere near that level of meaning and symbolism to Chase. They're just trying to keep up with the local Jones's (BofA & BMO).





Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapatan (Post 9504595)
What would be their reasoning for not going mixed use?

It wouldn't have anything to do with their reasoning, office and residential simply aren't mixed together at large scale in Chicago anymore. The last major mixed office/residential towers built in Chicago are now over 30 years old. It is a model that chicago's contemporary office tower developers have entirely moved away from.

left of center Jan 17, 2022 3:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 9504607)
It's a half-block site in the loop. It is not small. It's actually quite large. A 1.3M SF office tower there will most likely end up in the same 600 - 800' zone that all other recent Chicago office towers of similar size have landed in.

Is there one single owner of those two properties? I say two properties because they are bisected by Court Pl. I assume they are owned and being marketed by the same entity?

They are also not the same size and do not line up perfectly, as 123 N Wacker is narrower than 101 N Wacker. Although I suppose that shouldn't be too much of a problem, as any future development could use that extra space on the north parcel as an access drive/alley connection to Randolph.

bdurk Jan 17, 2022 3:33 AM

Is Trump Tower not an office building? I live in Philly so I kinda just always assumed it was an office building

Steely Dan Jan 17, 2022 3:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by left of center (Post 9505182)
Is there one single owner of those two properties? I say two properties because they are bisected by Court Pl. I assume they are owned and being marketed by the same entity?

Yes.

Both the the original and most recent proposals had the tower straddling both parcels, with a de-mapped Court Pl., and a plaza at the north end of the site.


Original:

http://imageshack.com/a/img913/7237/FsJmXc.jpg


Most Recent:

https://i.postimg.cc/50PC6jKT/4998f3...5357-s-4-2.jpg





Quote:

Originally Posted by bdurk (Post 9505188)
Is Trump Tower not an office building? I live in Philly so I kinda just always assumed it was an office building

No, it's a residential/hotel mixed-use tower. The first 12 or so levels are parking IIRC.

ORD2010 Jan 17, 2022 3:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 9504607)
It's a half-block site in the loop. It is not small. It's actually quite large. A 1.3M SF office tower there will most likely end up in the same 600 - 800' zone that all other recent Chicago office towers of similar size have landed in.





Vanity height is actually extremely uncommon (more like completely non-existent) on every single major office tower built in Chicago over the past 3 decades.






Nothing is ever totally out of the question, but smart people tend to make bets on the future that are informed by the events of the past.






Chicago is not NYC, and any new office tower that Chase might occupy in Chicago will not be their corporate HQ tower.

And that also helps explain why a Salesforce SF or Comcast Philly outcome is unlikely here. Those examples were both companies sparing no expense to build big giant fancy and expensive HQ edifices to themselves in their hometowns.

Chicago has nowhere near that level of meaning and symbolism to Chase. They're just trying to keep up with the local Jones's (BofA & BMO).






It wouldn't have anything to do with their reasoning, office and residential simply aren't mixed together at large scale in Chicago anymore. The last major mixed office/residential towers built in Chicago are now over 30 years old. It is a model that chicago's contemporary office tower developers have entirely moved away from.


I thought Chicago is the Chase Bank HQ while NY is JP Morgan Chase HQ, I could be wrong, it could just be the midwest regional

Steely Dan Jan 17, 2022 4:06 AM

^ Chase Bank has its U.S./Canada commercial and retail banking headquarters located here in Chicago.

But the real show is run out of NYC, as it always has been.


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