Pretty much paranoid germaphobes.

An N95 is worn perhaps in a hospital Tuberculosis isolation room, or in pre-vaccine COVID society when you are examining patients within 6 inches of their open mouth (like I was for most of last year).

Anybody else who is doing so is just.........ugh it's so OCD-level silly that I have no words

I don't mind them much. I usually only put mine on only for brief periods while in stores.

"Properly" fitting an N95 or KN95 is pretty easy. As you breathe in and out you should be able to tell if the air is escaping the mask and blowing past your cheeks (between the skin and the mask). Does the fabric of the mask suck in and out as you breathe? If so it's reasonably well-fitted.

More of your nonsense. According to the latest research the vaccines are about 88% effective. That leaves 12% of the time they are not effective and a good mask--the KN95 or N95 which can now be had online for under a dollar and reused many times in normal non-professional use--can make a significant incremental difference.

As for that 6 inch absurdity, every virologist will tell you that aerosols from unmasked people can virtually fill a small room.

But right now mask wearing is not entirely about protecting the wearer or even preventing those aerosols. It's also about making an incremental difference in viral prevalence and replication.

We both claim to be doctors--I'm an MD; not sure about UP's degree.

My CV includes several years doing cancer research at NIH and 26 years practicing primary care in the US Navy followed by 12 years practicing addiction medicine in San Francisco.

What you are calling "fear mongering and hysteria" is the consensus opinions and recommendations of nearly all virologists and epidemiologists in the developed world. That you personally reject these opinions and recommendations is on you, not those with some expertise on the subject.

Do what? I just put the mask on. Sometimes I have to adjust it a bit but, as I said, it's pretty easy to tell if the air is passing through the mask as you breathe because the mask material moves in and out somewhat.

You seem to want to make something simple to be complicated. Partly that's on my government's NIOSH for emphasizing mask "fit". In certain industrial settings that may be an issue but in the context we are talking about it's simple as I say. Just notice if you feel air moving between the mask and your skin and notice if the mask material moves in and out with breathing (if it doesn't, adjust the mask a bit until it does).

It is true about the N95's going down in price. I'm seeing some for $1.75 each. Pack of 50 for like $108.

Back in the day those things were gold. That and toilet paper.

People could of saved a lot of pain if they simply invested in one of those Japanese squirt toilets. No need for toilet paper. Save the rainforest type of deal.

I think its more on the extremist level. Like in Pakistan where some folks murder Polio vaccine workers.

Usually its the loony bins.

I think what should be concerning is not what's going on in the U.S. but what's going on in Africa. Ain't nobody talking about Africa. You have 1 billion+ people and only like 1% have been vaccinated. Delta is spreading very very fast, increasing the chance of some f'd up variant... that should be a concern... the logistics and availability of it all. In the end, we are all connected, so with respect to this pathogen, the world getting vaccinated is a much greater priority than some morons in Alabama who refuse to get vaccinated. They should but we will always have those type of folks in society. In a turn of events, Delta seems to be reducing those type of folks. The great education reformer.

Global vaccination is key.

As was with polio, smallpox, measles and others.

If we have to go back to wearing idiotic masks there will never be an end to it. There is no vaccine to look forward to this time, theyll just say we have to wear masks from here on out. Completely and utterly idiotic.

There will be an end to it. If we conquered smallpox and mostly measles for the most part, we will with this.

What will happen is that Governments have to grow some balls and either force vaccines or make daily life so restrictive without vaccine proof.

And the FDA needs to hurry their red-tape self and fully approve this thing. Than launch a massive global propaganda campaign to get the sheep vaccinated. With restrictions to force those that refuse to eventually get it.

So long as we can achieve herd immunity, there will be that % that never will get it but that's what nature is good for. Eliminating or just getting herd immunity amongst the stubborn. Either way... they will get it.

And be positive. I'd imagine some sort of meds will come out, non shots, to manage endemic sars-2-cov or its derivatives.

This pandemic is a case study in changing goalposts. Amazing.

Our society has lost its mind

You’re missing the point that society didn’t lose its collective mind over Measles like we are over Covid. I mean, look at Covid death rates right now. They are as low as could be, even with the Delta variant, nationwide.

Nobody is bothering to look at this

Exactly, the death rate is so small and always has been, the collective flip out of this not very deadly virus is and was out of control. If it had the fatality rate of the Spanish flu and was killing all age groups equally, then the shut downs and idiocy would have been and would be warranted.

Here’s your “scary” Delta variant
 

Just like in the UK, here are US cases:

https://i.postimg.cc/BvHWW6LR/2-F713...3015952803.png

Here are US deaths:

https://i.postimg.cc/K8dXsLzn/053047...9-E0234-AB.png

With barely over half the nation vaccinated, and a majority of the most vulnerable vaccinated, this is what you get. This is the goddamn Flu at this point. Stop the lies, stop the fear mongering.

Let the Howards hide in their basements.

The 7 day rolling average for deaths reached a low of 228 on July 7. It's 365 today. I'll do the math for you. That's a 60% increase in less than a month. The daily total today is 458. It's not hard to see the direction we're headed in again.

Oh noes! A nation of 360 million and now 365 people are dying a day, verses 250 last week. Oh noes!!!!!! The sky is falling. Do something! Lock it down!!! Lock it down!!!!!! The vaccine isn’t working!

I’ve got news for ya:

People die of infections
They died before 2020
They will die in 2022 and onward
When will you allow this to end?

To the “Covid forever” crowd: UK data
 

Let me guess,

“Just wait man, it’s coming! It’s coming! It’s going to keep rising to kill us all!”

Here’s the UK, which is ahead of the US and has similar vaccination rates:

https://i.postimg.cc/6qm7kzFW/2-BBF7...-CDAF2-B54.png

https://i.postimg.cc/PJxpV03V/E3-F8-...0299287577.png

What excuse do our resident fearmongers have now? Let me guess: The mutants are coming! Just give it more time :haha:

Roughly 8000 people die every single day in America, and most of those who die from covid overall are very elderly or already sick.

^ And overwhelmingly unvaccinated.

Most deaths are also concentrated in a few low vaccinated states like mine. Louisiana reported 59 deaths today or 12.9% of the deaths nationally. High vaccinated states likely have little to worry about, and it is unlikely we will see the number of deaths that occurred back in the winter.

Delta is burning through the unvaxxed at a high rate down here in Louisiana , and we are likely nearing the peak as percent positive rates have started to plateau. https://twitter.com/Crimealytics/sta...599523849?s=20

Unfortunately, hospitals are full of unvaxxed COVID patients in the state. The statewide mask mandate was too little too late, and will likely have minimal impact as the unvaxxed are also usually anti-mask and as stated it appears we are peaking right now in terms of infection.

I say that the vaccinated should take priority over those who willfully spit in the face of science. I have absolute disdain for anyone unvaxxed without a valid excuse at this point.

So? They're already sick or old so it's OK if they die a year or 10 years sooner than they would have? People like to toss around the word "fascism" here. Euthanizing the old, the deformed, the disabled and so on is precisely what certain fascist regimes did. We claimed to have been better than that and we should be. A premature death is a premature death.

This is a good point, and more reason why we should remove mask mandates, and instead encourage and provide resources for businesses to enforce proof of vaccination mandates.

Our relationship with death and tolerance for risk has evolved since the pandemics of legend. Especially in western countries.

Everyone expects that they and their loved ones will live to about 80 now, barring some freak bad luck.

Stuff like COVID is outside of people's frame of reference and expectations. That's why everyone freaked out about it.

Why does it have to be one or the other? We should have both until the delta wave is over (as it is now in India and the UK). Vaccination is more important but mask sfill provide sn incremental reduction in viral transmission since now we know that a not insignificant percentage of vaccinated people can get symptom-free infections and infect others.

That started when we required seat belts in cars. I hate the seat belt mandate.

On the left coast in San Francisco:

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/render...LIFE&res=small
https://sf.gov/data/covid-19-vaccinations

And that’s what really needs to change. Human life expectancy, in the actual sense of “expectations”, has gotten much too long.

And it means that these are low-quality and very expensive years, because it’s not just the genetically “lucky” or very healthy individuals who live this long, but others supported by all kinds of medical treatment. There is no point in spending 5-10 years in nursing care and yet people do it because they fear death.

You hate wearing a seat belt in a car but you’re happy walking around with a tight-fitting N95 mask over your face? That makes no sense.

It’s not euthanasia if they’re dying from a natural cause, like Covid.

A premature death by a few years is not the same as a premature death by decades (from say, gunfire). Once somebody is in their 70s they have already lived a full life.

Just wait until climate change really takes ahold!

:wiseman:

Will make the Covid death toll seem like peanuts.

Some stats (per year in the U.S... note just the U.S.):

Heart disease: 659,041
Cancer: 599,601
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005
Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499
Diabetes: 87,647
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565
Influenza and Pneumonia: 49,783
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511


Although nobody talks about the mosquito. Kills via its vectors 1,000,000 folks per year. And humans? Murders are almost 500k globally. Snakes kill 50,000.

IDK... but locking down and crippling the economy and lives to save say an extra 20k over the long run seems like its not worth the risk... :yes:

Especially if they choose to not get vaccinated. They run the risk regardless and a lot of those folks are over 70/80 anyways.

Anybody heard of TB? Kills 1.5 million a year.

If anything, Malaria is more of a risk in the long run.

AND AND... antibiotic resitant bacteria. Forget viruses, bacteria are the ultimate source of plague. Can really be deadly. We just have antibiotics so we forget about them!!!

Back in the olden days, a cut outside in the forest could spell death. I'm just saying. A simple wound could mean the end.

The most thing that makes me happy in my city is how combined all of us followed safety guidelines and adhered to all the protocols. Although it came out in form of strict rules but nevertheless all for good. Happy to wear a mask, using sanitizers everywhere we go. The conditions might not be good but since we have followed safety guidelines we are living happily.

Yeah that inconsistency about Howard struck me as well

I had to deal with a major COVID freak-out from my wife last night.

Both of us are of course fully vaxxed, but neither of our kids are. Daughter is turning 12 this month and will get her first shot soon. Son is 7.

Regardless, our county just edged up into the range where the CDC is strongly suggesting indoor mask use even among the vaccinated. Her work required everyone to wear masks all day yesterday.

She's mostly freaking out because we are going on a family vacation in a week and a half to LA. We chose it a few months ago before the spike - mostly because none of us had ever been and we had a huge flight credit from a canceled 2020 international trip to use up. We've now sunk thousands into an Airbnb, Disney tickets, etc. So now she's trapped between her desire to not waste money and her (largely irrational) fears of the kids getting serious COVID cases.

It doesn't sound like you'll be spending a lot of time in enclosed spaces with strangers. Strap a couple of N95s over their faces and go.

I recommend you tell her to stop worrying.

I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears, because we've collectedly lost our minds as a society and have lost the ability to risk-assess any longer (and she's a Mom, which is a whole different story). Good luck

Why?

Peace of mind.

Disneyland is mostly outdoors and you can opt to do outdoor dining only. Just have them wear masks when in crowded indoor places like the airport and airplane.

There is some data coming out that with the Delta variant, fully vaccinated people with "breakthrough" infections may be just as likely as unvaccinated people to spread the virus to others, but also viral loads decrease faster in vaccinated people, so they would be infectious for a shorter duration of time.

Did you get your result back yet? I'm guessing there is a high chance your physicians had breakthrough infection with the Delta variant, but at the same time, you were wearing an N95 mask.

Out of curiosity...

Could someone take a restaurant or retailer to court over mask requirements?

Can a restaurant owner or their employees with no medical training, no medical degree, and no license, give you (the customer) medical advice (for your health and the health of others) and prescribe a medical device (mask) and do so without privately seeing you in an office (likely not even being on-site in the case of the owner), not looking at your medical history, not allowing you to refuse their medical advice or get a second opinion? Giving medical advice and prescribing a medical device, without a license, as a requirement to enter somewhere is likely a violation of law?

I think if all of these businesses had to hire medical staff for every location, meet with each customer, and you could still refuse their medical treatment or present something different from your own doctor, that would likely be the end of businesses requiring masks? At best, they could suggest wearing a mask, but not require it in many locations in this country. In many places in this country, that would be the end of masking requirements. At the state-level, it's often emergency orders with a doctor advising, but even some of those emergency orders are struck-down in the courts. I'm surprised an anti-masker in this region of the country hasn't tried this to keep their local restaurants and grocery store from requiring masks.

There is nothing to sue about. Businesses have pretty wide authority for establishing dress code on their property.

The gray area is whether government has the authority to mandate that businesses require customers to wear masks. So far, it's been mostly a yes, but, for some idiotic reason, a few statehouses have created laws restricting it in their states.

Full life ≠ long life and 70ish really isn't that old. It was before we had electricity and running water.

You are likely right and if it was possible, someone in Florida or Texas likely would've tried by now. But does it fall under dress code or something medical, since it's for health reasons. It is a medical device and not a clothing item. You are told to wear it for medical reasons. Your health is personal and viewed very differently than a shirt, shoes, and pants. It would be interesting to see someone try.

I've also seen a local celebrity here in Atlanta publicly challenge the dress code for a local restaurant. He wanted to wear work-out clothes in an upper-end restaurant and was refused service. I think it led to a change at that restaurant?

The way things typically work is businesses are allowed to set whatever sort of entrance requirements they want, so long as it doesn't run afoul of something like federal anti-discrimination law.

There is no "right to shop" or "right to dine."

You'll never understand life expectancy tables. For every year you live, your ultimate life expectancy increases because you've already NOT died in the year past. These people are NOT dying 1 year early. Some are dying 10 years early or more even if they are old.

They can try, but if you can require shoes and a shirt, why can't you require a mask? Call it a fashion statement.

Interesting question because I've spent a fair amount of money on masks in the last year (now they've gotten much cheaper) and I'm wondering if they can be deducted from my income tax as a "medical device". I suspect not and that they fall in the same category as OTC medications. If they are not recognized as a prescription medical device for one purpose, probably not for another either.

But the bottom line is that not many restaurants are adopting these policies UNLESS the local health department has either recommended them or required them and that's probably the deciding factor. There's not much question that it is legal as a mandated public health measure.

Even with personal medical choices, like masking?

Also, while many businesses aren't essential, what about those that are? Businesses you would have to visit? Places like groceries or hardware that are called essential and are viewed somewhat differently. More than likely it would be someone without access to the internet that must visit the store? And the crowd that is strongly against masking would likely find that person if they could take it to court? I'm guessing the answer is still the same or someone would've tried this by now?

If I ran a retail or restaurant business, I would likely leave it to the customers to decide on their own, since so many in this region of the country are strongly against masks. Also, with worker shortages, it likely becomes difficult to keep workers when they are forced to confront those strongly against masks. At present, most customers at businesses here in metro Atlanta do mask, even without requirements.

I'm not anti-mask and will wear a mask at any business requiring it. I also support vaccine passports and wish this would expand to more cities, including Atlanta. Lauren and I are vaccinated and mask for our young son who can't get vaccinated. I just watch those that are anti-mask, as they protest, and wanted to know why we haven't seen something like this? Maybe even a governor using an executive order to forbid businesses from requiring masks. (Not saying any names or parties to keep it from being political) That is another interesting question? Can some of these governors (again, not naming names or parties) sign an executive order forbidding all local governments and all businesses from requiring masks?

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions. A lot of interesting what-ifs that appear in conversation about anti-masking.

And hospitals filled to their capacity again. I think that has always been what this is about. Trying to keep the hospitals from being completely overrun with covid so hospitals can cope. We can thank those not vaccinated for our current state.

I know quite a few vaccinated people who have gotten sick in the last month not wearing masks and tying to get back to normal, and all with symptoms that they described as pretty bad or worse than they expected considering they were vaccinated. Fortunately they have all recovered and who knows how bad it would have been if they weren't vaccinated. I traveled and flew on my first plane and was staying with a house full of people who got sick. I had to get tested but I am fine.

Exactly, but this is really only an issue in areas with very little vaccine compliance.

I think a lot of you folks are not properly giving credit to the difference between today and April 2020. The vaccine is the one and only treatment for COVID, and it's the major game changer that makes normal life available--if you will allow it. Our in house Howard Hughes will not allow it because he's enjoying the smell of his basement carpet too much, but most of society enjoys the wonders of being alive--and being scared and germaphobic is not a normal or healthy way to be.

People are always going to be dying, but it's nearly all unvaccinated people, and it's at a much more manageable scale than in 2020 when 500,000 people died within 8-9 months

I wouldn't mind if the unvaccinated were turned away unless there was a medical reason why they could not get vaccinated.