At some point 10023's point makes sense.

In developed countries, if death rates are very low (like they are now) even with some people not being vaccinated, then.......

.......who cares?

(and please answer this question without using the word 'variant', which is a copout. Obviously nobody can predict future events. In 2019 a new deadly variant of the Flu could have emerged, but that didn't mean that we were requiring Flu vaccine passports and locking people down)

There are some subtleties like vaccine uptake in different areas and domestic vs. foreign travel, but basically the burden of proof is on the health pass people to make a strong argument for why their intervention is needed right now based on concrete evidence.

Around here we're at around 80% vaccinated with 11 people in ICU (probably mostly there from a long time ago) out of a population of 5 million, so for the moment the "overwhelmed hospital" scenario isn't plausible. For bars and whatnot people can decide if that's a risk they want to take. If you're deathly afraid of covid, nobody will prevent you from locking yourself indoors or wearing an N95 mask to the grocery store. The objective risk of a bad health outcome due to uncontrollable exposure in normal situations is incredibly low right now, at least around here. In the last week I think the the fatality rate was 0.2 per million.

I see having to show proof of vaccination no more of an inconvenience or invasion of privacy than being carded to buy liquor or enter a nightclub. :shrug:

Another aspect of this that doesn't make a lot of sense is people who believe they are in imminent danger of contracting covid and having a very bad outcome today in places where cases are perhaps 1/10 or less what they were back in the winter.

Do they believe that they recovered before but they have no immunity now on average or their next bout will be worse? When a pandemic runs for 1-2 years and severe reinfection cases are rare there is a ceiling on the rate of serious illness happening at any given time.

In theory it could be similar but in practice I'm not so sure. Around here we've had lots of incompetence at government storage of health records and so it's reasonable to assume that any electronic data might be breached. We have paper vaccination cards too but they disclose more data than is necessary for a night club owner to see. If you know the date of vaccination here you can work out which priority category the person was in (e.g., maybe they declared indigenous ancestry, maybe they were clinically extremely vulnerable).

How is showing proof of vaccination an invasion of privacy? Is having your bags searched and going through metal detectors before attending a ball game or boarding a flight an invasion of privacy? Why do people have the mental strength of single ply toilet paper?

The issue is what exactly do you have a "right" to do? It's long been settled that you don't have a right to drive; hence you need a license that you must show to a police officer upon demand. Do you have a right to attend a ball game, enter a bar or restaurant or club and so forth? I don't think so and I think it's pretty well established that these businesses require a license to operate and so are subject to conditions set by the licensing authority--usually the local government--which can include requiring proof of vaccination for patrons. Rules and regulations are especially tight for any activity serving alcohol and they require not only a regular business license but usually one to serve alcohol as well.

Anyone who gets very sick or dies cares.

Your argument boils down to how many lives "matter"?

And you can't bar the consideration of variants. It's critical to the reasoning of nearly all virology and epidemiology experts who are concerned about how we are currently dealing with the virus. That you don't understand that makes me very disappointed in your medical expertise.

It's not.

Legally, you must be licensed to drive and be 21 to purchase alcohol while there are no laws requiring vaccinations (in general or to participate in activities) so no legal grounds to show vaccination record to anyone. It's still very much a legal grey area and one that won't be settled any time soon.

It’s not even a question of “who cares?” but rather “what can we do about it?”

Vaccines are the best tool we have, and they’re here. I have yet to hear a credible answer from anyone in favor of continued restrictions to the question of when these end (“when Covid has disappeared from the face of the earth”, or any answer that essentially means this, is not credible).

It was obvious from February 2020 that there would need to be a level of “acceptable deaths” and acceptable risk. Any residual risk that remains after vaccines are widely available must be deemed acceptable (and possibly more - as you all know I favored the Florida approach of individual responsibility and de facto self-isolation of the vulnerable).

When was the last time you were carded? That’s something that college kids and maybe some early 20-somethings have to deal with.

And places that need to card for entry have bouncers to do that job. Do you expect every retail or restaurant business to hire a full-time doorman to handle this?

You are arguing for indefinite restrictions and this is unacceptable.

I'm carded all the time and I'm in my 40's.

Me too, and I'm 51! More so when I wore masks everywhere.

Admittedly, though, many places here have a policy of "If you look under 35, we will ask for ID." Probably in my case they're just being patronizing. :P Or they can't tell what a 51 year-old Asian looks like. :haha:

In most places, a private business can require proof of vaccination as a terms of service for the customer and as a condition of employment for an employee. Schools systems can also require it as well for students, and almost all of us reading this would have had to get vaccinated to attend school. I know some states are trying to make that illegal now to score cheap political points, but those laws probably won't hold up in a federal challenge... And some might even violate their own state laws.

I got carded last weekend.

Neither of us are lawyers but I believe you are wrong. Most jurisdictions grant considerable leeway to the Alcohol Beverage Control Board or whatever they call it to make reasonable rules about the businesses they regulate and I also believe most courts would find it reasonable to require vaccinations in establishments serving alcohol as a public health measure.

The law doesn't set strict rules as to what constitutes a "public nuisance" either but any bar or club generating frequent police calls over noise or rowdy behavior would soon find itself declared one and shut down in most places.

Exactly. Just like "no shoes, no shirt, no service", another rule based in public health issues.

Tell me what laws there are requiring showing proof vaccination to enter an establishment? You're right, none of us are lawyers but I suspect for this to be actual law and enforceable, the state government would actually have to formalize it so at the very least grant alcohol agencies that authority. Then that really only applies to bars and some restaurants with high enough volume of alcohol sales. For example here in Texas, no one can carry any weapon into any establishment (bar or club) that makes 51% or more of their sales in alcohol...per the TABC but I can pack heat in a Applebee's.

Maybe that’s a Texas thing. I’ve also been living in a country where the drinking age is 18 for the last 8+ years.

This is pretty murky when you get into the details. Many places in North America don't require vaccination for children attending public school. Of the ones that do some have non-medical exemptions. And the vaccines they require are generally older (chickenpox being one of the newer ones, rolled out from the late 80's to mid 90's) and not only approved under the lower bar of an emergency use authorization.

It sounds like full FDA approval for Pfizer isn't expected until early 2022.

The thread of mainstream opinion on this has been pretty strange. There were a lot of conservative voices back in the fall of 2020 that were arguing against say human challenge trials or larger scale trials and defending bureaucratic delays when the death rate was far higher and people weren't even allowed to choose to be vaccinated. But then once the EUA was granted a lot of people lurched to the other extreme and argued that coercing people into getting vaccinated was a good idea.

It's an American thing. I was carded in New York last week. If you look youngish, they have to card you and I do not look like I'm in my 40's...or so people around me say.

I can play younger too, but there’s a big difference between not looking like you’re in your 40s and looking like you’re 20 or a teenager. ;)

It’s probably a bit like how they occasionally pull an elderly white woman aside for additional screening at the airport so it doesn’t look like they’re racially profiling.

I'm sure there are places that don't require it, but the ones that DO require it are the precedent for whether they can require proof of vaccination.

It has more to do with liability than flattering us 40-somethings. I might look 30-ish but an under 21 can also look 30-ish so they card everyone they think are in that age rage.

Not LAWS . . . yet. Administrative rules made by executive branch agencies under authority granted by the legislature.

https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...s-and-concerts

Note that if a state such as California can make rules about attendance at indoor events relating to vaccination status, they can make rules prohibiting the unvaccinated from attending entirely (as Erie County officials in New York evidently did). Probably based on Public Health law, which allows measures that might surprise a lot of people including confinement to your home or an institution, these measures would likely just have to pass a "reasonableness" test in relation to their stated purpose (preventing spread of covid).

Things are getting a little spicy in Florida:

Florida reports 231 COVID deaths, 45K more cases in last week

"Hospitalizations
Across the state, hospitalizations are rising with 3,652 people were hospitalized with COVID-19 for the seven-day period from July 7-13, according to the latest White House report. In comparison, 2,369 were hospitalized the previous week. The week before that, it was 1,868."

well at least the governor has his priorities straight

Gov. Ron DeSantis sells ‘Don’t Fauci My Florida’ merch as his state’s COVID-19 cases spike

https://d35ligi1n5bgzc.cloudfront.ne...VY_1000USA.png

This i think perfectly illustrates my point that provincial leaders are force to be responsible because they actually manage the health systems in each province.
If part of Desantis job was trying to manage health resources across the state we would have to be more responsible.

There are no laws requiring men to wear shirts in 7-11, for example, but the clerks can legally deny you service and ask you to leave their establishment if you are bare chested. Private businesses are allowed to set and enforce rules for prospective customers on their premises as long as the rules do not violate any specific law.

That said, red states will continue to pass laws specifically barring proof of vaccination by private businesses, because the RepubliQAns have abandoned their 'small government' principles and are now the official anti-vaxx party.

But I am not sure the dust has settled to where proof of vaccination falls under the same scope as requiring shoes and shirt legally. I hope it does so we can go out and have peace of mind while we're out eating that Kovid "I have an immune system" Karen won't sitting behind us spreading her funk all over the place.

The dust never settles on legal issues, and when it comes to proof of vaccination specifically, the red states are going to insinuate the GQP anti-vax agenda into private business decisions regarding setting and enforcing rules for staff and customers on their premises. Many states, however, will not likely carve out a special exception for anti-vaxxers.

The UK government has singled out France (and only France) to still have a quarantine requirement for vaccinated people, despite their case rate being lower (which doesn’t really matter in a post vaccine world anyway).

Supposedly because there are cases of the “beta” (South African) variant, which is also irrelevant because this was long ago usurped by delta in the UK. Really I suspect it’s about this incompetent, nationalist government wanting to point a finger across the Channel and say “look over there, scary foreigners!”.

I really hate the whole Baby Boomer generation. I was indifferent before Covid, now I just want them all to die as soon as possible.

I actually think it is you who isn’t thinking rationally. There is no evidence whatsoever that death rates are rising for the vaccinated. There is no evidence whatsoever that new variants are going to be more deadly than the original variant, against the vaccinated population. I pay attention to data, not my worst fears. I recommend you do the same.

I get carded on occasion too. I figured it was because of my stunning looks!

Grocery items:
Spinach, eggs, loaf of bread, cheese, pasta, tomato, onion, tortillas, salmon, ground turkey, toothpaste...1 bottle of RED WINE.

Cashier be like:
https://media1.tenor.com/images/4a16...itemid=6098038
tenor

Cashier: "Do you have your ID on ya?"

Me thinking in my head: "Yeah, do you think I'm 20 and trying to get wasted off 1 bottle of wine and sneak it by you with all of these household groceries on my way to a frat house party?"

I almost never get carded in Canada, and I’m fairly certain the only times in the last decade were at sporting events. The liquor store will very occasionally card my wife but never me weirdly enough. When I travel to the US it seems pretty common though - almost every bar or liquor store has asked me to show ID at least once. The only place I’ve been with some frequency that seemed more lax was New Orleans, which maybe shouldn’t be surprising.

I’m 38 with a thick beard and somewhat thinning hair, FWIW. If I was under 21 it would be a sad state of affairs.

I used to think of you as a charming narcissist and I’ve always enjoyed your posts. Then with COVID, the charm melted away and your narcissism became something darker. Several months ago, I stopped searching out your posts for their erudition; but instead for the deep, soul-satisfying schadenfreude of reading about your pathetic suffering. There’s nothing quite like the joy that comes from the tears of a psychopath. Keep the posts coming!

Assuming you're an angst ridden millennial; your parents, aunts, uncles, etc are most likely Boomers. How dare people get older become more susceptible to illness and still be allowed in participate society.

The Patrick Bateman vibe has only increased over time.

It's close to time to ignore him. Covid or something is clearly driving him insane.

Canada has now reached 70% vaccination of the total population receiving at least 1 dose (80% for those over 12 years old) and continues to be one of the few countries where R is still below 1.0 with new cases now below 400 a day and deaths now below 10 a day

https://i.postimg.cc/kXck7fgz/share-...ated-covid.png
https://i.postimg.cc/Y2g7B6gB/corona...xplorer-51.png
https://i.postimg.cc/ydGrDbZY/corona...xplorer-52.png
https://i.postimg.cc/t4yyRsbv/corona...xplorer-53.png

What was the point of this post, Howard?

Nobody gives a fiddler’s fuck if a vaccinated person can get Covid. We are way past that. Point is, nobody’s getting serious ill or dying.

Now back to our regular programming: counting global cases of the common cold.

By the way, while you are whittling your golden years away sheltering in your basement, I dined with my managers, went to a bar, and now will be enjoying sushi at a restaurant with my level headed octogenarian vaccinated parents at an indoor restaurant. :D

So why are you such a bitter sourpuss after enjoying life so much? And why would you even comment on a post you don't care about?

FYI I went out to eat yesterday too at one of San Francisco's better Italian restaurants (a Mano). I'm not that much of a sushi fan in spite of having lived in Japan.

I'm wondering if I'll ever eat indoors again, given the option of eating outdoors in the pleasant climates where I spend my time. I just love the outdoor venues that almost all SF places now have. Enjoy the stuffy indoors in a Chicago winter.

Why would we care more about people's lives than they manifestly care about their own lives themselves, if they choose to go against all of the advice and don't get vaccinated?

(Not talking about the tiny number of people who can't get vaccinated due to medical reasons.)

My response was to an argument that didn't start when vaccines became available. If it had, I might even agree with it. But 10023 and his fanboys were objecting to public health measures like business closure, masks and the rest from Spring 2020. So there was no option to get vaccinated when they started arguing their ability to go to the gym or dine indoors or belly up to a bar trumped whatever amount of death was happening around them.

You may, if you read many of my recent posts, note that I am currently a fan of the "herd immunity" option among the unvaccinated. That is, if they won't protect themselves (as they now can but couldn't until this spring), then let the virus give them natural immunity whatever the consequences. However we do it, I want as many people as possible to cease being susceptible hosts for this virus. That way we can reduce the number of cases to a manageable one such that public health measures like contact tracing and isolation can finally work.

Do you personally have a limit though as to what is an acceptable level of public safety relative to economic damage? I'm not sure how much U.S. federal debt is attributable directly to Covid but I would have to guess it's not insignificant. I just wonder if major developed countries do start to face austerity measures in the not to far future whether we will look back at some of these actions as catalysts.

Well that seems to be a 2-part question: (1) What public health measures to take and (2) What measures the government should take to help those adversely affected.

Prior to vaccine availability, I favored closing "non-essential" indoor activities and that would include bars, clubs serving alcohol and indoor dining. Grocery stores obviously couldn't be closed nor other stores selling things where people enter, grab what they want, pay and leave. It's really services where customers necessarily linger that were problematic.

Now that there's a vaccine, if it were up to me, I'd require vaccination for entry to those same indoor services. I don't think at this point I'd require anything to be closed but besides indoor services, I'd require vaccination for entry to indoor entertainment and sports venues and other activities, more or less as France is doing.

Then the question is what should government be doing about those affected. I favored extra federal unemployment benefits (in the US, that's $600/wk until September). But I did NOT favor sending extra checks to everybody below a certain income. Most of those were below that income before covid and will be after covid and their need is independent of covid. Rather than send out such checks to individuals, the government probably should have provided more assistance to small business owners forced to close (as far as I understand it, in the US they just got loans, not grants). I'd have to know more to approve of things like airline bailouts: My understanding is that Delta and Southwest would have survived covid regardless, but United might not and I'm uncertain about American. These airlines were NOT forced to quit flying remember--it's just nobody wanted to fly.

I do believe the Biden Administration has been taking advantage of the covid situation to implement a certain amount of left wing wet dream stuff. I mean they gave local governments so much money that most of them can't spend it all on anything related to covid and are now being asked to spend it on police (how ironic THAT!).

Covid-related spending so far has been $3 trillion ( https://www.usaspending.gov/disaster/covid-19 ). The US federal debt is now on the order of 100% of GDP. That's a lot though less than some other developed countries still. But I think it's time to call a halt and the Biden $3.5 trillion social spending proposal (which he calls "infrastructure") is a step too far. The US does badly need infrastructure spending and I think we should be spending more on roads, bridges, broadband, water projects, climate change stuff like flooding prevention on the coasts, transit and high speed rail. But the $3.5 trillion isn't for that--I'd take a $1 trillion of the 3.5 and add it to the $1 trillion actually for infrastructure and make it $2 trillion and pass it.

Judging by the posts of some people here, obsessed about case rates of a virus that will be with us in perpetuity, there is clearly a lack of true deliberation happening. Those folks are not coming to terms with the reality that this is a condition with no end in sight.

At some point you really need to just stop counting and live your life. Life is too short.

In 1000 years, if humans are still around, Covid and it’s descendent variants will still be swimming amongst our population. The sooner you realize this the sooner the mental healing happens.

Naturally, you are missing the point. The point is do we want it to be like polio when I was a child and there were hospitals full of children in "iron lungs" or do we want it to be like now when polio is a rare condition mostly limited to the developing world because in the developed world most kids are vaccinated.

As with covid, I remember the time before there was a vaccine (which is perhaps where you are lacking--you don't remember all the pre-vaccine diseases I do). Every summer, swimming pools in major metros were closed and playgrounds and kids were sent home because of polio outbreaks. Those public health measures were all we had but they were taken. The only difference from covid is that covid is spread in more different environments and so more environments have to be shuttered when it is at high prevalence.

https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html

^ The flaw is yours. Not every virus will have have a vaccine that eliminates the virus in its entirety. Influenza as one example.

Covid is here to stay.

Hide in your basement all you want. The world must go on