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MichaelRyerson Feb 14, 2013 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProphetM (Post 6014296)
I don't think your notation of the streets is correct. Main and Marchessault are not visible in this photo. Here are the streets as I understand them:

1. The extreme foreground street is Spring.
2. The street right next to Spring that runs along the back of the plaza church is New High Street.
3. The cross street is Sunset Blvd. - it passes out of view behind the church facilities as it approaches the plaza.
4. The street that goes to the left away from Sunset is also Spring Street. It takes a jog east at Sunset before proceeding north.
Main Street is one block further away and is not visible in the photo.

Of these 4 streets, only the Spring in the foreground is still there as a normal street. New High Street behind the church has only recently been taken over. Sunset in this photo is part parking lot and part driveway - one-way that goes from Spring to Main alongside the church. The small bit of Spring north of Sunset (as well as the properties on both sides of that street) is now part of a parking lot.

I think the photo was taken from the hill above Justicia Street, or possibly from the top of the Broadway tunnel's north portal.

Speaking of which, I found an interesting thing I had not noticed before about the Broadway tunnel. I will make a new post for that.

Well I think you're partly right if you'll allow me to nitpick. I agree Marchessault is likely not visible although with the various changes in street names and rerouting that happened in this area not having the date of the pic nailed down makes it really impossible to say for sure. For instance by 1942 Sunset had been rerouted well north to mate with Macy (good imagery) so that Marchessault came all the way out to Justicia/N. Broadway (I'll post an image from my 1942 Shell street map shortly). But if you'll look closely (and thankfully the extreme resolution of this image makes it possible) you'll find a section of Main Street is just visible under that Five-Globe Llewellyn beyond the white 'Salon' Sign and under the 'Drugs' sign. It ain't much but it's there.


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8244/8...1df9f46c_o.jpg
1942 Shell Los Angeles Street Map, detail (2a)

Here you can see Sunset has been rerouted to the north to meet Macy. But what crosses above the Plaza and we would (or at least I did) assume would be Marchessault is unmarked. (Also, although somewhat off topic, they get Broadway north of the tunnel wrong, showing it bending over and meeting Castelar when it clearly always merged with Justicia and N. Broadway at and above Sunset).


Now look at the street index. Marchessault is nowhere to be found in 1942! Perhaps this is as simple as just not having room to print the name adjacent to the street image.


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8369/8...85941ef5_o.jpg
1942 Shell Los Angeles Street Map, detail (3a)

MichaelRyerson Feb 14, 2013 3:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProphetM (Post 6014381)
For MichaelRyerson - here's a photo from your Flickr account, described as unidentified:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7118/7...3c06ea89_b.jpg
another unidentified, undated picture from the california historical society by MichaelRyerson, on Flickr

Full description:
titled: Empty street in El Paseo de Los Angeles, [s.d.]

Photograph of an empty street in El Paseo de Los Angeles, [s.d.]. A narrow road paved with paving stones runs from the foreground to the background at center. Multi-story brick buildings can be seen along the road at right, while lower structures can be seen on the left side of the road. A three-tiered fountain can be seen at left. Several trees are visible as well.


Not sure if this picture has remained unidentified - I searched for it in the thread but didn't find it posted at all. This is Olvera Street, looking south. I assume it's about 1929 as it's been cleaned up nicely but doesn't yet appear to have any vendors or visitors.

At immediate right is the Italian Hall. In the distance at left just beyond the US flag is the Avila adobe (behind the flagpole), then the LA Railway substation (behind the flag itself) and finally the tower of the plaza Methodist church. The fountain on the left side of the street is still around as well. A Google image search for 'olvera street fountain' generates several pictures - it's painted light blue.

Thank you so much ProphetM! I hadn't gotten back to that image yet to do any further snooping around. But of course you're right. I'll update my photo-stream right away (with appropriate attribution of course!). Coming up on 3,000 images, each with it's own charms.

ProphetM Feb 14, 2013 3:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelRyerson (Post 6014546)
Well I think you're partly right if you'll allow me to nitpick. I agree Marchessault is likely not visible although with the various changes in street names and rerouting that happened in this area not having the date of the pic nailed down makes it really impossible to say for sure. For instance by 1942 Sunset had been rerouted well north to mate with Macy (good imagery) so that Marchessault came all the way out to Justicia/N. Broadway (I'll post an image from my 1942 Shell street map shortly). But if you'll look closely (and thankfully the extreme resolution of this image makes it possible) you'll find a section of Main Street is just visible under that Five-Globe Llewellyn beyond the white 'Salon' Sign and under the 'Drugs' sign. It ain't much but it's there.

OK, you got me there on both counts. D'oh!
I wasn't thinking about whether Sunset was already rerouted by this time. It was my impression that Marchessault never went past the plaza. I seem to remember at least one map posted here where this piece of Sunset was marked as something else after the rerouting, but still not called Marchessault.

Wig-Wag Feb 14, 2013 6:14 PM

Paving Stones and Streetcars
 
And amen to below. there's a faint chance work might take me to LA next month and I am chomping at the bit to get down there before Palmer spews his Orange County crud all over these survivors.[/QUOTE]

Pursuant to the ongoing discussion of paving stones in LA streets, when the City began the redevelopment of the RiverStation/Cornfield/Bullring yards along North Broadway and North Spring Streets, they eliminated a small parallel street called Prudent. This was the first name of Prudent Beaudry who was involved with LA’s first water works, and for which Beaudry Street is named.

For a tie-in to the earlier zanja discussion see: http://www.ladowntownnews.com/news/d...871e3ce6c.html

Prudent street had originally been paved with ballast stones from sailing ships left abandoned in San Pedro harbor. Over the years, the asphalt covering the street had worn thin and exposed the stones in many areas. During the elimination of this street a friend of mine, over a period of several weeks surreptitiously removed a large quantity of these stones to create pathways in his backyard. And, while I do not condone the practice, I seriously doubt that the demolition contractors ever noticed the missing stones and they have been saved from the dump where the remainder of the street probably ended up.

Also, in regards to the wonderful picture of Sunset and Spring Streets first posted by sopas_ej, on page 626 and re-posted several times since, the streetcar closest to the camera is still with us. It was one of two (Nos. 2601 and 2602) experimental types built by St. Louis Car Company in 1930 for the Lost Angeles Railway. It is seen in the livery of the day, tan/brown roof, silver down to the black belt rail and yellow below. It is currently being restored for operation at the Orange Empire Railway Museum where it has been painted into the green and yellow “fruit salad” livery of LARY successor Los Angeles Transit Lines. The car behind 2601 is a wooden LARY “Standard” and this type too operates at the museum.

Cheers,
Jack

MichaelRyerson Feb 14, 2013 6:21 PM

Slightly different perspective on area we've been looking at...
 
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8039/7...91dbc2ae_o.jpg
The 600 block of North Spring Street, looking south to Sunset Boulevard, circa the 1940s. The Vera Cruz Cafe and the Bamba Club are on the left.

Good view of the Vera Cruz and the Bamba, favorite hangouts of Burt Lancaster, Yvonne De Carlo and Dan Duryea, ne, Steve Thompson, Anna and Slim Dundee in Criss Cross.



Moving down the block, closer to the Plaza we come to...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8031/7...3e265397_o.jpg
View of the 600 block of North Spring Street, looking south to Sunset Boulevard, circa the 1940s. Hotel Atlantic is on the left, and the Pico House is in the background.

The Hotel Atlantic is clearly visible and just slightly farther down is the Hotel Pacific.

LAPL


And lastly, moving around the corner and slightly west...(still looking south)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8290/7...a736e83c_o.jpg
View of Spring Street looking south from Sunset Boulevard, C.C. Pierce, ca.1931

Photograph of Spring Street looking south from Sunset Boulevard, about 1931. At center, a man climbs a pole that supports streetcar cables. Below him, a traffic light extends from the median between the two paved roads, New High Street on the left and Spring Street on the right, that extend into the distance. In the foreground, the wide intersection with Sunset Boulevard is seen. At right, automobiles are parked along a sidewalk at the foot of a recently tiered Fort Moore Hill. At left, a billboard on a nearby highrise building reads "Annex. Headquarters. Soda Fountain. Accessories. [...]". In e.j.sopas' image, taken ten years later, the curb-line and sidewalk, separating New High Street from N. Spring, have been extended out to the island on which the traffic light is installed. By the way, it would appear the same traffic light has survived to the later pic.

USCdigital archive/Title Insurance and Trust / C.C. Pierce Photography Collection, 1860-1960


And finally, here is an image looking the opposite direction from the sopas image. Sorry for the bodacious arrow. But ironically, I think sopas' image may have been taken from very nearly where that arrow is superimposed...(and our reference traffic light can be seen)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7269/7...7fbd1ab8_o.jpg
Union_Station_Construction_Begins_1934

(1934) - A steam shovel hissed on April 19, 1934, and bit into Fort Moore Hill at Spring Street and Sunset Boulevard (actually the steam shovel is over on Justicia Street and N. Broadway where it exits the tunnel) as a part of ground breaking exercises for the start of work on the new $8,000,000 Union depot for Los Angeles. The photo shows the ceremony in progress with an arrow pointing to the speakers' stand, beside which is the steam shovel which turned the first shovel-full of earth. In the background is Fort Moore Hill with the (Mary) Banning House at the right and, I believe, the Milo Baker House at the upper left. The intersection of Spring Street and Sunset Boulevard is in the right foreground. Dirt amounting to 50,000 cubic yards will be moved to fill in at the new depot site.

tovangar2 Feb 14, 2013 8:01 PM

USC Digital needs more staff...
 
Happily playing in MichaelRyerson's Flickr stream I found another not-very-mysterious shot, although I don't know the date. I don't know when that row of beach-side homes was removed.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-e...209%2520AM.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michael...n/photostream/

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-k...305%2520PM.jpg
http://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-fr...-image12850179

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-y...034%2520AM.jpg
gsv

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-i...633%2520AM.jpg
google maps ("B" marks Getty Villa parking)

malumot Feb 14, 2013 8:04 PM

Times have changed.

Boy I'll say! One robber dead, employees shot.......and yet passers-by are able to gather 'round a few paces away and on-look. If this happened today they'd have everything from Exposition Park to the San Pedro wharves on lockdown.....:haha:

Perhaps they COULD have used better crime scene control in '55 (though I'd imagine what we see there was standard.)

But surely there could be a happy medium ("Hey Officer Friendly: Can we stand on the sidewalk in front of the houses at least?")




Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelRyerson (Post 6012892)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8093/8...cb8c0dbf_o.png
Market holdup and shooting (120th and Avalon), 1955


11 July 1955. Reportedly one or more suspects have taken refuge in the attic of the super market. Tear gas has been fed into the space and officers with guns drawn are taking positions to block escape routes.



http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8369/8...753b6910_o.png
Market holdup and shooting (120th and Avalon), 1955 (6)


Times have changed. I don't think I've ever seen a suspect uncuffed and alone in the front seat of a police car before.

USC digital archive/Los Angeles Examiner Collection, 1920-1961


so-cal-bear Feb 14, 2013 8:13 PM

.

MichaelRyerson Feb 14, 2013 8:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tovangar2 (Post 6015074)
Happily playing in MichaelRyerson's Flickr stream I found another not-very-mysterious shot, although I don't know the date. I don't know when that row of beach-side homes was removed.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-e...209%2520AM.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/michael...n/photostream/

yeah, actually this isn't part of the Getty holdings. This magnificent house (which is still there by the way) is the Leon Kaufman mansion (called appropriately enough the Villa (de) Leon). Construction started in 1926-7 and was finished in about 1928ish. Cost was approximately one million dollars. Mr. Kaufman (made his fortune in wool) and his wife, Clemence, moved in but didn't live to enjoy it, he dying in 1931 and she a short time later. Following her death the property remained unoccupied for many years, maybe 25 years and was ultimately sold at auction for $71,000 with most of the furnishings in tact. It is a lovely property and one which, as a kid, we used to call the Getty House. But Getty didn't buy into the area until 1945 and his ranch house was well back from the coast highway. The Museum came later. (see also my post number 12000 this thread)

tovangar2 Feb 14, 2013 8:36 PM

Getty/Kaufman
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelRyerson (Post 6015109)
yeah, actually this isn't part of the Getty holdings. This magnificent house (which is still there by the way) is the Leon Kaufman mansion (called appropriately enough the Villa Leon). Construction started in 1926-7 and was finished in about 1928ish. Cost was approximately one million dollars. Mr. Kaufman (made his fortune in wool) and his wife moved in but didn't live to enjoy it, he dying in 1931 and she a short time later. Following her death the property remained unoccupied for many years, maybe 25 years and was ultimately sold at auction for $71,000 with most of the furnishings in tact. It is a lovely property and one which, as a kid, we used to call the Getty House. But Getty didn't buy into the area until 1945 and his ranch house was well back from the coast highway. The Museum came later. (see also my post number 12000 this thread)

I did know that. I suppose I should have corrected "Dreamstime's" caption. The parking structure is for the Getty Villa Museum at the top of the Google Maps view, not the Kaufman house.

Dunno who owns it now, but it's getting "improved" again:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-e...003%2520PM.jpg
google maps 2013 image

MichaelRyerson Feb 14, 2013 9:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tovangar2 (Post 6015145)

Dunno who owns it now, but it's getting "improved" again:

It was recently listed for $14,500,000.00 and I believe it was most recently owned by a partnership of UCLA people. Kind of an upscale timeshare.

tovangar2 Feb 14, 2013 9:24 PM

Getty Malibu
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelRyerson (Post 6015194)
It was recently listed for $14,500,000.00 and I believe it was most recently owned by a partnership of UCLA people. Kind of an upscale timeshare.

It's only value to most is as a signpost for the Getty Villa. One can't miss the turn-off to the museum. No wonder people call it the "Getty House". It must often be mistaken for a glorified gatekeeper's lodge.

Then:
http://paradiseleased.wordpress.com/...ream-realized/
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-o...819%2520PM.jpg

Now:
http://meyler.locations.org/library6...ze=640&start=0
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-X...800%2520PM.jpg

MichaelRyerson Feb 14, 2013 9:46 PM

Last post of the day, I promise...
 
Thought it would be interesting to look at the sopas view from 1960...


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8464/8...f5d7867c_o.jpg
View of the old Plaza Church from Fort Moore Hill, 1960

More than a little irony in the title of this photograph.

USCdigital archive/California Historical Society Collection, 1860-1960


Actually, if you look at the extreme lower edge of the image you can see it is taken from Hill Street or at least from the ivy-covered slope below Hill Street which is, technically speaking, the last vestige of Fort Moore Hill.

tovangar2 Feb 14, 2013 10:33 PM

unrestricted crime scenes
 
Re crimes scenes. While living in Hollywood in the late 70s, a teenage boy was shot dead one morning on the sidewalk opposite my house. Standing on my porch, I watched as the city photographer took photos of the body as a gentle rain fell. The photographer was so calm and methodical, he and his equipment sheltered by an assistant holding a large, black umbrella. The rain washed the blood from the corpse which then coursed down a drive into the gutter. The boy looked so still and cold and wet. A couple of suits, detectives or coroner's men, hung back under their own umbrellas. There were some uniformed cops, but they stayed in their cars out of the weather. The area wasn't taped off or the block closed to traffic. It remains just about the saddest thing I've ever seen.

A bit later, a lady who lived across the street murdered a young pregnant woman, cut the body open and stole the almost full-term baby. She showed up at a local hospital, claiming she's just given birth to the child, a story that didn't wash, especially when the remains of the actual mother were found. Just when I was thinking maybe this wasn't the block for me, Lorimar moved from Warner Bros Burbank to the old MGM studios in Culver City and we followed it to the Westside.

MichaelRyerson Feb 14, 2013 10:42 PM

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.

rbpjr Feb 15, 2013 1:36 AM

So to speak...
 
[QUOTE=Los Angeles Past;6014184]Just my opinion, but I think these ones...

"these ones"....some English teacher is wagging his/her finger...

Los Angeles Past Feb 15, 2013 2:31 AM

[QUOTE=rbpjr;6015539]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Los Angeles Past (Post 6014184)
Just my opinion, but I think these ones...

"these ones"....some English teacher is wagging his/her finger...


*chuckle* "Them ones" sounded even worse. ;)

And at least I didn't spell it "one's." *gahhhh* :slob:

Los Angeles Past Feb 15, 2013 2:34 AM

Zoomed in on that flag hanging from the Avila adobe's front porch, and O say can you see, it's a 30-star! That was the flag of the U.S. in 1850, when California was admitted to the Union.

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/v...30starflag.jpg

The 31-star flag, with California's new star, was officially adopted the following July 4, of 1851.

-Scott

DouglasUrantia Feb 15, 2013 3:16 AM

Construction begins....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelRyerson (Post 6014861)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8039/7...91dbc2ae_o.jpg
The 600 block of North Spring Street, looking south to Sunset Boulevard, circa the 1940s. The Vera Cruz Cafe and the Bamba Club are on the left.

Good view of the Vera Cruz and the Bamba, favorite hangouts of Burt Lancaster, Yvonne De Carlo and Dan Duryea, ne, Steve Thompson, Anna and Slim Dundee in Criss Cross.



Moving down the block, closer to the Plaza we come to...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8031/7...3e265397_o.jpg
View of the 600 block of North Spring Street, looking south to Sunset Boulevard, circa the 1940s. Hotel Atlantic is on the left, and the Pico House is in the background.

The Hotel Atlantic is clearly visible and just slightly farther down is the Hotel Pacific.

LAPL


And lastly, moving around the corner and slightly west...(still looking south)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8290/7...a736e83c_o.jpg
View of Spring Street looking south from Sunset Boulevard, C.C. Pierce, ca.1931

Photograph of Spring Street looking south from Sunset Boulevard, about 1931. At center, a man climbs a pole that supports streetcar cables. Below him, a traffic light extends from the median between the two paved roads, New High Street on the left and Spring Street on the right, that extend into the distance. In the foreground, the wide intersection with Sunset Boulevard is seen. At right, automobiles are parked along a sidewalk at the foot of a recently tiered Fort Moore Hill. At left, a billboard on a nearby highrise building reads "Annex. Headquarters. Soda Fountain. Accessories. [...]". In e.j.sopas' image, taken ten years later, the curb-line and sidewalk, separating New High Street from N. Spring, have been extended out to the island on which the traffic light is installed. By the way, it would appear the same traffic light has survived to the later pic.

USCdigital archive/Title Insurance and Trust / C.C. Pierce Photography Collection, 1860-1960


And finally, here is an image looking the opposite direction from the sopas image. Sorry for the bodacious arrow. But ironically, I think sopas' image may have been taken from very nearly where that arrow is superimposed...(and our reference traffic light can be seen)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7269/7...7fbd1ab8_o.jpg
Union_Station_Construction_Begins_1934



(1934) - A steam shovel hissed on April 19, 1934, and bit into Fort Moore Hill at Spring Street and Sunset Boulevard (actually the steam shovel is over on Justicia Street and N. Broadway where it exits the tunnel) as a part of ground breaking exercises for the start of work on the new $8,000,000 Union depot for Los Angeles. The photo shows the ceremony in progress with an arrow pointing to the speakers' stand, beside which is the steam shovel which turned the first shovel-full of earth. In the background is Fort Moore Hill with the (Mary) Banning House at the right and, I believe, the Milo Baker House at the upper left. The intersection of Spring Street and Sunset Boulevard is in the right foreground. Dirt amounting to 50,000 cubic yards will be moved to fill in at the new depot site.

Construction begins:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps98f45b64.jpg

sopas ej Feb 15, 2013 5:13 AM

I'm very excited about the ongoing renovation and restoration of the Hall of Justice, the oldest building left in the LA Civic Center. Ever since I was a kid, it's always been a dull grey color. I can't wait until the cleaning of the exterior is finished, when it will be back to its gleaming bright self, like when it was new.

Hall of Justice, 1928
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/9...buildingat.jpg
USC Archive

Have to include some Manson chicks, 1971. I was hoping one of these would be Squeaky Fromme.
http://jpg2.lapl.org/pics18/00018695.jpg
LAPL

Oh there she is, on the left.
http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics02/00020700.jpg
LAPL

Meanwhile, across town, circa 1967, outside the Hollywood Brown Derby, are Regis Philbin and Joey Bishop. Random, I know.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...42715309_n.jpg
ABC Photo Archives


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