Yes, even flushing money down the toilets would improve the place because at least it would scour some of the filth away.

NY's major train station. A basement. If Tokyo Shinjuku station (another basement) can be made to look appealing, I'm sure this one can put on a brighter face.

The lack of development on the Monyihan station is disgusting. It SHOULD NOT take over a decade to even begin work.

It won't. It's ironic that Penn Station has been allowed to stay the way it has for so long, when not that far away, Grand Central serves as the example of what a major train terminal should be. But that has a lot to do with the real estate, mainly that Penn Station is literally a basement. There is very little they can do there without razing Madison Square Garden. This is where Moynihan Station comes in.


http://www.khl.com/magazines/interna...=breaking-news
Skanska wins New York station contract

by Sarah Ann McCay
17 Jun 2012



http://www.theconstructionindex.co.u...hanstation.jpg
http://www.theconstructionindex.co.u...cts-worth-300m

http://observer.com/2012/07/inside-t...d-post-office/

Inside the Retro-Futuristic Moynihan Station: Newest Plans Are a Throwback to the Old Post Office

http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...3-am.png?w=600
The first phase of Moynihan Station will be limited largely to new entrances on the west side of Eighth Avenue.


July 10, 2012
By Matt Chaban


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The entrance on 33rd Street includes a new subway entrance.


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Inside, everything is slick 20th Century airport chic.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...onsm.jpg?w=575
The biggest changes will not be the entrances but new platforms underground and rejiggered tracks.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...-am1.png?w=600
The swooping new concourse for the first phase, reminiscent of Santiago Calatrava's World Trade Center PATH station.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...6-am.png?w=600
The real show stopper is the new train hall, which keeps the old Farley Post Office roof intact, a cost-saving and preservation-friendly move.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...4816.jpg?w=598
This is contrary to a 2006 proposal, seen here, that would have done away with the old roof and replaced it with a soaring new one.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...0-am.png?w=580
New corridors will connect riders not only to trains but retail opportunities—much of the old post office will be converted into shops, like at Washington and San Fancisco's train stations.


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This is all part of a bigger plan for high speed rail, which Amtrak presented at the post office in May. A huge new station would be built for this along 30th Street.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...0-am.png?w=600
This would help accommodate new bullet trains traveling up and down the Northeast Corridor.


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By Amtrak's own admission, this rollout will take not a few decades to complete.


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But the opportunities for connectivity throughout the region are big.

:previous: Amazing. We're finally advancing in public transportation to be comparable with Europe and East Asia.

what I love about this is not only is this a cost-saving and preservation-friendly move, as was said, but this I feel is yet more reminiscent of the old Penn Station than even the original Moynihan plan was, with all that exposed steel on the ceiling.

WIN. WIN. WIN. :notacrook::cheers::banana:

All very exciting news - I just hope they actually follow through . . .

Hmmm, I like this project but my biggest concern is if people will be able to actually pronounce "Moynihan station" lol

Well the distinction between Moynihan and Penn to the public will be pretty limited. I think the majority will just call it Penn which leads me to wonder about the wisdom of honor namings anyway. It's an admirable tradition but I think there are other ways that don't hamper clarity or distinction as far as the public I concerned. I'm not a fan of most of these renamings Triboro = RFK included.

Somewhat, but the distinction will be that when people are referencing the Farley building in particular, that will be Moynihan. Of course, if you're coming into Manhattan on the LIRR, you'll be arriving in Penn Station and not Moynihan. But Penn Station doesn't have a visible presence on the street. You can't really point to it (except for a few signs), not the case for Moynihan.

It's a bit of a let down compared to some of the previous proposals though. The roof looks less impressive than before. Still, this needs to be done and it is a decent enough proposal.

Well, the distinction has always been confusing to me. I assume the notion is to eventually direct intercity passengers to the "Moynihan" facilities in the Farley building, including the large atriums, waiting rooms, shopping, and public spaces. Meanwhile, the current "Penn" will become more of a secondary entrance, handling primarily commuters who are arriving for NJT and LIRR on foot or via subway.

I suppose, but I felt like the old design was striking in some ways but odd in others..the roof didn't really evoke the old Penn in my eyes, it was more of a contemporary roof tacked on to the unremarkable interior of a pre-war building. You may disagree, but my heart still breaks for the loss of the old station and I think the new design has that old train station feel that the current Penn ironically never had.

Very exciting of course, but nothing beats the old penn station. Still, a much needed improvement over the current station.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/05/ny...=nyregion&_r=0

New Idea for Penn Station Entails Relocating a College

By CHARLES V. BAGLI
February 4, 2013

I've long wondered when BMCC's current building would get the wrecking ball, their current building taken from Battery Park, with the WTC a couple of blocks to the right, or south in the photo below. The idea seems like a good one. Moynihan gets rolling, BMCC relocates essentially a block or less from the busiest train station in NA in a rapidly changing neighborhood, and their current POS building gets the wrecking ball.

http://w1.campusexplorer.com/media/5...e-8135EE2B.jpg
http://www.campusexplorer.com/colleg...photos-videos/

It sounds like a complicated deal to pull off but Related is one of the few companies who could possibly do it. Looks like they'll need to find a way to sweeten the deal though to change the perception that it's a giveaway.

I just a wish a similar deal could have been hatched with MSG giving us a recreated Penn interior inside a magnificent and monumental modern glass structure, returning an awe inspiring portal to an awe inspiring city.

So much for the new Fiterman Hall building that just recently opened.

While the site of BMCC on the hudson river ( I was once a student there ) would be a great location for residential towers ( the views are great ), I don't think a college is ideally what you would want at the new station, particularly in this part of Midtown where they are trying to attract more of a corporate presence. I liked it better when they were going to incorporate a hotel or office tower into the building. A school just doesn't seem like a good fit. Also I remember at one time more than half of the students there were from Brooklyn. I think we need something at the site that would be a gateway between Manhattan West, and the towers to the east like 15 Penn Plaza.



http://observer.com/2013/02/related-...nihan-station/

I like the garden. Will they be able to do this under the current land swap proposal?

The whole world doesn't need to revolve around corporations. Having students around will liven up the place in a way where a bunch of people in suits won't.

It goes against today's Now Now Now mentality, but this is a big project and it will take a long time to accomplish. It's definitely worth waiting for, as opposed to not getting at all.

No, not the whole world, just the city's business districts - those areas specifically designed and zoned to attract corporations and especially around the major transit hubs. You can put students anywhere in the City, even on an island in the middle of the east river.

If New Yorkers want an example of an excellent train station, take a look at Philadelphia's 30th Street Station. All major Amtrak stations should follow that model.

The Old Penn station was similar design to 30th Street and it was bigger then 30th Street. We also have Newark Penn Station a smaller serious of 30th Street Station and Grand Central Terminal so we don't really need any examples of stations to model off of. All we need is the money to build what should be built.

Yes, because there are no excellent train stations in NYC. :rolleyes:

But NYguy (and I say this objectively, not argumentatively), just about all of Manhattan is a mix of residential and business... even midtown and downtown. The neighborhood around Penn Station certainly is a mix of both and was so long before any recent zoning for the new buildings in the area.

Anyway, I hope Moynihan Station becomes a reality for New York, for rail travel and for rectifying one of the greatest travesties in the history of architecture.

TBH Grand Central doesn't work really well. The main hall is impressive but the waiting rooms and platforms are dark and dingy. With the 30th street station, you board trains from the main hall instead of a waiting area in the catacombs. That's what makes the 30th street station unique and exemplary.

Grand Central itself is undergoing a transformation, but nothing really touches it, even the grand PATH and Fulton Street terminals Downtown, as fabulous as they are.



http://gothamist.com/2013/02/05/rela...attan_real.php

Moynihan Station Developer Now Wants Free TriBeCa Real Estate


http://gothamist.com/attachments/gar..._moynihan1.jpg
A rendering of one of the entrances to the long-suffering Moynihan Station. BMCC would, in theory, go in an office building round back



Related should have concentrated on swapping with MSG, since it's already there, rebuild Penn Station along with some new commercial space....


http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/141417232/original.jpg



http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/107968182/original.jpg

Doesn't work well? You must be joking. Grand Central serves over 60 million passengers a year, 30th Street Station serves 4.5 million. With the completion of the East Side Access project that will increase dramatically.

The platforms are darker than 30th St because they are underground.

Anyone who calls GCT dingy needs to get their prescription checked and the station handles an order of magnate more passengers than 30th with relative ease.

I agree but MSG was never moving because of the Dolans. It won't be now either with the renovation for a long time. No way the Dolans will easily give up their super convenient location right above Penn for a less convenient one without major incentives.

Regarding the plan to put the college in the annex, I disagree with that. That would rule out any future move of MSG and rebuilding of the current station after the renovation has lost its luster. Farley itself doesn't excite me after seeing some of the most recent renderings. It is hardly the super impressive station that a rebuilt Penn could be. The recent renderings were quite unimpressive IMO.

30th street station can't hold a candle to the ornate headhouse/train sheds of the grand European stations.

I wish GCT had a train shed, but NYC is just too dense and land is too scarce for that.

Penn station was a crime, but it is even more so today that they won't rebuild it and move MSG (blame the Dolans). Farley will never be a replacement for Penn, especially since it won't be taking over the entire building. The recent renderings showed an unimpressive and rather small atrium design.

Agreed. I was just in Italy and blown away by Milano Centrale.

Maybe swap can be done in the future since Javits will eventually have to go. The space for a grand hall at Farley is limited by the building and landmark requirement for new elements ( the glass canopy) not to be viewable from street level. Regardless it will be many more years before MSG can be moved so investing in Moynihan and interim improvements to Penn is the only realistic option right now.

Agreed, that is a beauty.

Are they demolishing madison square garden?

^ They could but won't happen anytime soon. It's just had a major renovation. Plus I expect MSG to be gone in 15-30 years time, considering the urge of development that will surge after the Hudson Yards take full fruition.

That's why I said Related should have spent that time trying to sway them. I think they had a better shot than with trying to get BMCC to move. Dolan decided to move ahead with renovation in part because Related and Vornado weren't getting anwhere with the Penn Station plans. And while the current MSG renovation looks ok, that's only from the inside - its still the mess it always has been from the outside. But maybe that is the one good sign, no really significant alterations to the outside because Dolan sees a way out in the future. We could only hope.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/env_...cp053m_eas.pdf

The Garden will probably be demolished within 10-15 years. The Dolans are only renovating the interiors; something they do every 15 years or so anyways.

MSG sits on 6 million square feet of development rights, with no height limits. The land is worth far more than the arena itself, so they will eventually sell. They just need to find a new location.

They also need to hope that the new mayor doesn't take the arena by eminent domain. There have been rumblings of this.

^ The supertall plans have been floating around for MORE than a decade now, and I know that has to do with the Dolans, but who's to say 15 years doesn't become 25 years. Remember MSG has been critically HATED since its inception in 1964. It has sustained the wrecking ball for 49 years.

http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2013...foot-led-signs

Looks like they want to pretty up MSG with signs.

The article says they want to spend 1 billion dollars on the exterior elements and public experience outside the arena.

It appears to me that they are attempting to put lipstick on a pig.

Yeah, you can see some of the images in the pdf above.



http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/02/...mmunity-board/

MSG’s push to stay put concerns community board

February 12, 2013

Wow, this may be one of the few times I agree with a Community Board.

Agreed. Hopefully MSG only gets the temporary permit, and is forced to move sooner rather than later.

Just like pumping half a billion dollars into an arena that will inevitably be torn down doesn't make sense?. Oh wait, sure it does... its called padding the value of the building to blackmail the eventual buyers to pay way for for the structure than what its really worth. Shrewd gentlemen.

The entire renovation costs nearly $1 billion. They aren't really doing anything to the exterior except for some new signs and entrances.

And, yeah, this is lipstick on a pig. They need to sell to Related/Vornado so this redevelopment can get going.

Crazy idea time.

Vornado owns 2 Penn Plaza and the Hotel Pennsylvania. Demo 2 Penn (nobodies going to miss it, unlike the Hotel Penn), and dump the airights from the hotel, existing 2 Penn site, and MSG onto the 2 Penn site. I'm talking a single landmark tower with 6-8 msf of space. Easily 100+floors, maybe even 200fl. Potential WTB territory.

Preservationists get to keep the Hotel Penn, the Dolans get to keep the MSG, the city gets a new WTB.:superwhip

The problem with the current incarnation of MSG is that it:

1. Brings huge crowds of people to an already overcrowded Penn Station.
2. Is holy-fuck-tier ugly.
3. Makes even the smallest upgrades to the Penn Station prohibitively costly.

To fix Penn Station (and in this case I'm only talking about making it a tolerable space, not restoring it to it's pre-violation glory days) the Garden absolutely has to go somewhere -almost anywhere- else, ASAP. In my opinion, the best location for the next MSG would be somewhere in the Far-West of Manhattan, such as a part of the Javits plot that will become available when the convention center inevitably goes, built on landfill in the Hudson River, or if a benevolent diety is on our side, maybe the future MSG could even replace the absolutely horrible PA Bus Terminal. :yes: