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-   -   NEW YORK | Moynihan Station / MSG Renovation (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum//showthread.php?t=185034)

yankeesfan1000 Feb 12, 2013 8:59 PM

Yeah, the Garden has to go. As the area around Penn gets more developed, Manhattan West, 15 Penn, and there are lots all around Penn zoned for big new towers, the station is going to get even more crowded, if that's possible. So to make Penn Station even just humane, let alone a grand experience depicted in some of the renderings in this thread, the Garden's gotta move. The Farley building still makes the most sense, as the Dolan's wouldn't want to move too far from all the transit convenience of Penn Station, and you could fit an arena there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 6006235)
The Garden will probably be demolished within 10-15 years. The Dolans are only renovating the interiors; something they do every 15 years or so anyways.

MSG sits on 6 million square feet of development rights, with no height limits. The land is worth far more than the arena itself, so they will eventually sell. They just need to find a new location.

They also need to hope that the new mayor doesn't take the arena by eminent domain. There have been rumblings of this.

While I agree with everything you said, I was wondering if you could expand on the eminent domain idea. After a quick google search I could only find one, brief article that mentions it from 2008.

ardecila Feb 12, 2013 11:34 PM

I hope the mayor does take MSG via eminent domain. (Granted, I'm not a NY taxpayer, but they may use Federal grants).

Penn Station shouldn't have to hunker beneath a skyscraper, arena, or anything else.

aquablue Feb 13, 2013 5:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 6012286)
I hope the mayor does take MSG via eminent domain. (Granted, I'm not a NY taxpayer, but they may use Federal grants).

Penn Station shouldn't have to hunker beneath a skyscraper, arena, or anything else.

You could probably build a skyscraper over a new penn station without having it feel horrible inside. The station would fit in the base of the tower and would have glass walls on all sides and high ceilings. The tracks could be open to the light. The bulk of the tower's shaft could be cantilevered over the station section or raised by some other method, with the main lobby being high-up above the station and having its own access points. The only problem would be less light coming in from the roof to the station below (it would be difficult to separate the tower from the roof of the station). However, enough light from the side walls should be enough to illuminate the tracks below. Not ideal, but if a tower is required to make a new Penn financially doable and to not waste valuable air rights, It could be done while still vastly improving the ugly situation today. Cost would probably be an issue though, as this would probably be complex to build.

Rail>Auto Feb 13, 2013 7:00 PM

I don't know if it's possible but I'd like to see 2 Penn demolished in favor of building 2-4 high rises in the corners around MSG like the Barclays Center development. You could then use the land 2 Penn sat on for a new grandiose Penn Station building (would probably have to dig quite a ways over to the rails underneath MSG though).

yankeesfan1000 Feb 14, 2013 11:23 PM

Article in the NYTimes yesterday about the permit renewal. Remember, City Council, Forever Is a Really Long Time, worth a read.

"...The Council could grant a 10-year permit, enough time so that the Garden and the various parties responsible for the station can come up with an appropriately aggressive plan to improve the site, a plan that should include discussions about a possible future home, elsewhere, for the arena. Renewal of the permit is one of the few points of leverage the city has over the Garden..."

I hope the city would really start to force the Dolan's hand here. Penn needs a massive upgrade to be a humane and sanitary station for today's passengers to speak nothing of what it'll be like in a 10+ years, it sits on millions of sf of air rights which could be used to partially fund the project, but nothing can be done while this utter POS sits on top of it.

ThatOneGuy Feb 15, 2013 12:33 AM

I didn't know they built a stadium there... Waste of space!

aquablue Feb 15, 2013 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy (Post 6015464)
I didn't know they built a stadium there... Waste of space!

Location right on top of a major station, access for people from the suburbs. At that time, there was no demand for skyscrapers at that location so it was not considered a poor use of space. We still don' know if there is demand for scrapers there, given the lack of movement on the surrounding towers. It may take years before this area is ripe for large scale development.

aquablue Feb 15, 2013 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000 (Post 6015372)
Article in the NYTimes yesterday about the permit renewal. Remember, City Council, Forever Is a Really Long Time, worth a read.

"...The Council could grant a 10-year permit, enough time so that the Garden and the various parties responsible for the station can come up with an appropriately aggressive plan to improve the site, a plan that should include discussions about a possible future home, elsewhere, for the arena. Renewal of the permit is one of the few points of leverage the city has over the Garden..."

I hope the city would really start to force the Dolan's hand here. Penn needs a massive upgrade to be a humane and sanitary station for today's passengers to speak nothing of what it'll be like in a 10+ years, it sits on millions of sf of air rights which could be used to partially fund the project, but nothing can be done while this utter POS sits on top of it.

It's a no brainer. I hope that they don't give them the unlimited option. MSG must move!

islandxtreme26 Feb 15, 2013 2:41 PM

Do any of you, especially the ones who are not from New York, understand that they are completing a renovation of the Garden that is approaching $1 BILLION??

The building on the outside is dated, yes. It is far from what I would call first class from the outside. It interferes with the ability to make any worthy and beneficial changes to upgrade Penn or build a new Penn. I agree with your sentiments on this, but one needs to be realistic.

The inside of the Garden is phenomenal now and has one more phase of renovation to go next summer. The entire building was gutted inside - the seating bowls, the concourses, the service spaces - were all completely removed and rebuilt. Yes, the exterior remained and could use a major remodel, however, it is a brand NEW building inside an existing shell. I'm all for more Scrapers and a new Penn Station, however, far too much $$$ was just spent to basically build a new MSG. To think that this Garden is going anywhere anytime soon is a fools errand and pipe dream.

k1052 Feb 15, 2013 3:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by islandxtreme26 (Post 6016105)
Do any of you, especially the ones who are not from New York, understand that they are completing a renovation of the Garden that is approaching $1 BILLION??

The building on the outside is dated, yes. It is far from what I would call first class from the outside. It interferes with the ability to make any worthy and beneficial changes to upgrade Penn or build a new Penn. I agree with your sentiments on this, but one needs to be realistic.

The inside of the Garden is phenomenal now and has one more phase of renovation to go next summer. The entire building was gutted inside - the seating bowls, the concourses, the service spaces - were all completely removed and rebuilt. Yes, the exterior remained and could use a major remodel, however, it is a brand NEW building inside an existing shell. I'm all for more Scrapers and a new Penn Station, however, far too much $$$ was just spent to basically build a new MSG. To think that this Garden is going anywhere anytime soon is a fools errand and pipe dream.

Surely that has nothing to do with the Dolans arguing that MSG should be granted a permit in perpetuity.....

Launching such a costly renovation before you get the permit renewal is a risk the Dolans have decided to bear. Trying to blackmail the city into an eternal renewal because they spent the cash should be relatively low on the list of considerations. I'd say the city should issue a 10 year extension and imply strongly that future renewals will be for shorter terms (if approved at all) and it's in their best interest to start thinking about relocation further west either to Farley or on to part of the Javits site.

yankeesfan1000 Feb 15, 2013 4:35 PM

^

Agreed, I'd add that the Dolan's are likely not only advocating for a perpetual permit, but also a permanent tax exemption along with the permit.

aquablue Feb 15, 2013 5:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by islandxtreme26 (Post 6016105)
Do any of you, especially the ones who are not from New York, understand that they are completing a renovation of the Garden that is approaching $1 BILLION??

The building on the outside is dated, yes. It is far from what I would call first class from the outside. It interferes with the ability to make any worthy and beneficial changes to upgrade Penn or build a new Penn. I agree with your sentiments on this, but one needs to be realistic.

The inside of the Garden is phenomenal now and has one more phase of renovation to go next summer. The entire building was gutted inside - the seating bowls, the concourses, the service spaces - were all completely removed and rebuilt. Yes, the exterior remained and could use a major remodel, however, it is a brand NEW building inside an existing shell. I'm all for more Scrapers and a new Penn Station, however, far too much $$$ was just spent to basically build a new MSG. To think that this Garden is going anywhere anytime soon is a fools errand and pipe dream.

Who cares, even with the renovation it will still be a crappy arena. In the end its just a stadium. The needs of millions of NY commuters and the gateway to the city (i.e, one of its major lifelines) is far more important.

ardecila Feb 15, 2013 7:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by islandxtreme26 (Post 6016105)
Do any of you, especially the ones who are not from New York, understand that they are completing a renovation of the Garden that is approaching $1 BILLION??

That's the Dolans' problem, not the city's. Virtually everyone agrees that this is a poor location for an arena, and this sentiment existed before the Dolans decided to drop $1 billion on a renovation.

This is not to mention that Penn Station, and the economic activity it enables, is worth way more than $1 billion.

NYC4Life Feb 15, 2013 8:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 6016523)

This is not to mention that Penn Station, and the economic activity it enables, is worth way more than $1 billion.

In its current state, Penn Station is probably worth way less than that (sarcasm) but, as already mentioned, just because the Dolan's dished out a billion dollars on renovations doesn't make it any more or less viable to an area that needs new development. It's still an arena atop the nation's busiest commuter hub that desperately needs expansion. But ultimately, it was the city's fault back in the 1960's for allowing the demolition of the old Penn in favor of the monstrosity that sits there now.

aquablue Feb 15, 2013 9:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYC4Life (Post 6016587)
In its current state, Penn Station is probably worth way less than that (sarcasm) but, as already mentioned, just because the Dolan's dished out a billion dollars on renovations doesn't make it any more or less viable to an area that needs new development. It's still an arena atop the nation's busiest commuter hub that desperately needs expansion. But ultimately, it was the city's fault back in the 1960's for allowing the demolition of the old Penn in favor of the monstrosity that sits there now.

Which makes it all the more important that the city rectify their stupid error. It is incumbent up them to take the matter in hand. It is now or perhaps, never? Sad thought that MSG be here for another 50+ years, and people will still be scurrying around like rats in a cave underneath in 2050.

J. Will Feb 16, 2013 1:42 AM

MSG is in the middle of a $1 billion renovation. It will probably outlive all of us.

yankeesfan1000 Feb 16, 2013 5:07 AM

Unless everyone here is on Social Security, I seriously doubt that.

mrnyc Feb 16, 2013 5:37 AM

meanwhile, full court press on farley!!!

yankeesfan1000 Feb 16, 2013 1:25 PM

Madison Square Garden, Permit Lapsed, Faces New Planning Pressure

By DAVID W. DUNLAP
February 15, 2013, 6:54 pm

"... The expiration of the permit is more than a matter of administrative arcana, however. It has been seized on by advocates of a comprehensive planning process for Penn Station and the Garden. They want the City Planning Commission to use the permit renewal as leverage to compel serious discussion about moving the arena to a new site, and getting it off the top of the train station — an idea that surfaces and sinks again with some regularity...

...On Thursday, as the Garden’s application began its journey through the city’s land-use procedure, Community Board 5 voted 36 to 0, with one abstention, to deny the permit extension, as well as the Garden’s accompanying request to install much larger signage on the Eighth Avenue facade.

Instead, the board proposed that the permit be extended only for 10 years, enough time for a thoughtful plan to be developed, but not so much time as to allow Garden executives and city officials to ignore or shrug off the idea. The board said it believed that a new arena at a different location would be “in the long-term interests of the tens of millions of people who travel through Penn Station every year,” as well as nearby property owners, New York City generally and the region as a whole...

...Robert D. Yaro, the president of the Regional Plan Association, a private organization, said in an interview: “I have this old-fashioned idea that New Yorkers are entitled to having a world-class arena in Manhattan and a world-class train station. We’ve demonstrated convincingly that you can’t have both of these on the same site.” He said that a shorter extension of the special permit was a “pretty good idea” as a planning measure."

Madison Square Garden's Permanent Renewal Opposed by Community Board

February 15, 2013 10:18am | By Alan Neuhauser, DNAinfo Reporter/Producer

"...CB5 instead recommended at its full board meeting to approve a 10-year permit for MSG, giving the community time to develop plans to relocate "The World’s Most Famous Arena." Members want the arena to move in order to give room to expand the overcrowded Penn Station below.

"The committee thought that rather than granting the Garden a renewal in perpetuity, we thought we should create a planning period — a 10-year planning period …to find a better location for Madison Square Garden,” Raju Mann, acting chairman of the board’s land-use committee, explained Thursday night.

“We don’t have a world-class arena, frankly, and we don’t have a world-class [train] station. And we should have both.”

...The CB5 recommendation will next go before the borough president, who has 30 days to weigh in, and then to the city planning commission, before going officially before the City Council."

aquablue Feb 16, 2013 3:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000 (Post 6017466)
Madison Square Garden, Permit Lapsed, Faces New Planning Pressure

By DAVID W. DUNLAP
February 15, 2013, 6:54 pm

"... The expiration of the permit is more than a matter of administrative arcana, however. It has been seized on by advocates of a comprehensive planning process for Penn Station and the Garden. They want the City Planning Commission to use the permit renewal as leverage to compel serious discussion about moving the arena to a new site, and getting it off the top of the train station — an idea that surfaces and sinks again with some regularity...

...On Thursday, as the Garden’s application began its journey through the city’s land-use procedure, Community Board 5 voted 36 to 0, with one abstention, to deny the permit extension, as well as the Garden’s accompanying request to install much larger signage on the Eighth Avenue facade.

Instead, the board proposed that the permit be extended only for 10 years, enough time for a thoughtful plan to be developed, but not so much time as to allow Garden executives and city officials to ignore or shrug off the idea. The board said it believed that a new arena at a different location would be “in the long-term interests of the tens of millions of people who travel through Penn Station every year,” as well as nearby property owners, New York City generally and the region as a whole...

...Robert D. Yaro, the president of the Regional Plan Association, a private organization, said in an interview: “I have this old-fashioned idea that New Yorkers are entitled to having a world-class arena in Manhattan and a world-class train station. We’ve demonstrated convincingly that you can’t have both of these on the same site.” He said that a shorter extension of the special permit was a “pretty good idea” as a planning measure."

Madison Square Garden's Permanent Renewal Opposed by Community Board

February 15, 2013 10:18am | By Alan Neuhauser, DNAinfo Reporter/Producer

"...CB5 instead recommended at its full board meeting to approve a 10-year permit for MSG, giving the community time to develop plans to relocate "The World’s Most Famous Arena." Members want the arena to move in order to give room to expand the overcrowded Penn Station below.

"The committee thought that rather than granting the Garden a renewal in perpetuity, we thought we should create a planning period — a 10-year planning period …to find a better location for Madison Square Garden,” Raju Mann, acting chairman of the board’s land-use committee, explained Thursday night.

“We don’t have a world-class arena, frankly, and we don’t have a world-class [train] station. And we should have both.”

...The CB5 recommendation will next go before the borough president, who has 30 days to weigh in, and then to the city planning commission, before going officially before the City Council."

They have their priorities in the right place. NY absolutely needs a better main train station. Penn is the train station, not GC, that most people see when travelling to NYC from other major cities. It needs to be world class, not this embarrassment. MSG was just renovated, but that does not mean it deserves to tie up the future of NYC rail travel for the next century. Give them a time limit to begin to explore other options, that is the sensible thing to do. The renovation did not fix the main issues with the arena, and they should begin to realize that as MSG gets more and more out of date in 10 years.

phoenixboi08 Feb 18, 2013 1:15 PM

Does Penn have air rights to sell?
Possibly allow them to sell any rights they might have and use that to relocate, and the developer purchasing the rights could build a high rise atop this half of the station.

http://www.gothamist.com/attachments...oynstation.JPG

yankeesfan1000 Feb 23, 2013 6:38 PM

^ Yeah. 6M square feet or so.

aquablue Feb 26, 2013 11:39 PM

Years ago, before the Penn Station in Manhattan existed, the main train station was in Jersey City. It had a fantastic European style train shed, since demolished. What a shame that they demolished the great train sheds and instead put the trains in a dungeon underground. I am annoyed that the new Farley plan does not seem to have the trains tracks open to the light at all. That is why, given the restrictions that the Farley building imposes on any changes due to its landmark status, the removal of MSG is even more imperative to create a proper train station for NYC once again, even though it never have a classic train shed.

k1052 Feb 27, 2013 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6030473)
I am annoyed that the new Farley plan does not seem to have the trains tracks open to the light at all.

That could be accomplished with a glass floor or glass paving system in the main hall, similar to the original Penn Station.

NYguy Mar 21, 2013 10:01 PM

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TATE/130329971

Effort to replant Madison Square Garden tips off

The Regional Plan Association and the Municipal Art Society of New York launch a joint campaign to relocate Madison Square Garden
in order to rejuvenate Penn Station, which sits underneath it.



By Andrew J. Hawkins
March 21, 2013

Quote:

Imagine Penn Station, unburdened from the hulking arena squatting above, illuminated by natural light and expanded to accommodate the growing crowd of travelers and commuters that stream through its corridors daily.

That is the vision behind a new partnership between two of the city's leading planning organizations: the Regional Plan Association and the Municipal Art Society of New York, which launched a joint effort Thursday to advocate for the relocation of what they see as the city's least aesthetically appealing arena, Madison Square Garden, which sits atop the transit hub.

By moving the Garden to an alternate location—the backside of the old Farley Post Office across the street, for example, or the two-block long Morgan General Mail Facility on Ninth Avenue and West 30th Street—the planning groups hope to liberate Penn Station, "where overcrowded and grim public areas have plagued hundreds of thousands of daily commuters for nearly five decades," they say.

But time is running out.

"There's a very narrow window to address something that will be a problem decades into the future," said Chris Jones, vice president for research at the Regional Plan Association.

On April 10, the City's Planning Commission will hold a hearing on the Garden's land-use permit, which expired in January for the first time in 50 years. Under standard practices, a new permit would give the Garden's owners—a publicly traded company spun off by Cablevision in 2010—the rights to the site atop Penn Station in perpetuity. Instead, the planning advocates are calling for a 10-year extension, which would give the city and developers time to envision alternative locations.

"This is the Holy Grail of economic development," said Vin Cipolla, president of the Municipal Art Society. Under the new partnership, the Regional Plan Association and MAS will host a design challenge and a panel discussion to explore in greater detail options for Penn Station and Madison Square Garden.

A 10-year extension of the Garden's permit would be an unprecedented move by the City Planning Commission—no other New York stadium or arena operates under such temporary terms. Not surprisingly, the Garden's owner is uninterested in doing so—or in relocating.

"Madison Square Garden has been an integral part of New York City for more than 130 years and acts as a vital driver of the city's economy, supporting thousands of jobs and hosting over 400 annual events that attract 4 million people every year," a Garden spokesman said. "This fall, MSG will finish its three-year, top-to-bottom transformation of the Garden. Following the completion of this self-funded, nearly $1 billion transformation, it is incongruous to think that MSG would be considering moving."

yankeesfan1000 Mar 28, 2013 12:17 AM

This might actually happen...

Stringer backs 10-year limit on Madison Square Garden permit extension
March 27, 2013 06:00PM

http://therealdeal.com/wp-content/up...2013/03/63.jpg

"Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer today recommended that the City Planning Commission endorse a proposal to expand Penn Station by shifting the location of Madison Square Garden, Crain’s reported...

... Rather, he supported a 10-year limit on the permit extension, which would allow developers and planners to brainstorm a plan to boost economic growth on the West Side. MSG’s permit to operate as an over 2,500-seat arena expired in January.

...“It is time to build a more spacious, attractive station that’s going to encourage [mass] transportation use,” Stringer told Crain’s.

...Manhattan Community Board 5 has said it wants MSG’s permit limited to 10 years..."

Submariner Mar 28, 2013 12:35 AM

So we're going to need to wait another decade before that nightmare that's called Penn Station has a chance of being rebuilt?

Why can't they just go ahead and do Moynihan station instead of renovating Penn? I really don't want to spend a decade waiting (then another decade while it's being built) and I'm tired of getting off the train and walking into that dump.

Crawford Mar 28, 2013 2:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Submariner (Post 6069384)
Why can't they just go ahead and do Moynihan station instead of renovating Penn?

Just to clarify, Moynihan is happening regardless, and the current Penn isn't going anywhere.

The MSG site prevents a grand entrance and aboveground concourse from being built, though, and blocks 6 million square feet of air rights for new towers.

But the final result will include everything you see in the current Penn. The difference would be an expanded underground and grand new aboveground space.

And, of course, the 6 million square feet of air rights will mean huge new towers. The previous Vornado plan called for two towers, each taller than ESB, flanking a gigantic new glass train station hall.

ardecila Mar 28, 2013 3:38 AM

This is why. The platforms are underneath Penn Station, between 7th and 8th. A Moynihan Station west of 8th would only touch the very end of the platforms (the West End Concourse, part of Moynihan, is in green). This means each platform would only have one point of access to Moynihan, leading to extreme crowding every time a train is departing. It's chaotic enough right now.

For this reason, Moynihan can't be a replacement for Penn. It can only be an addition that expands capacity.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4976/picture6nj.jpg

Ten years seems like a long time, but Penn Station is one of the most congested, crowded sites on earth, rivaling spots in Tokyo. It takes time to come up with a plan that works for everybody, funds to build it, and a long time to build a giant new station when thousands of people must pass through daily. It will take even longer if the 10-year plan passes and the Dolans bring their inevitable lawsuit.

There's also the problem of connections. If Amtrak builds their Gateway tunnel to bring another two tracks beneath the Hudson, where do those trains go? It's been suggested that Penn could handle these trains already, if it had bigger concourses and better management. I'm hoping for a connection between Penn and Grand Central, which would be the key achievement of the entire NY rail system.

yankeesfan1000 Mar 28, 2013 11:49 AM

^^ Where the Gateway tunnels would go is shown below.

Here's a link to Stringer's recommendation. I haven't had a time to read through it, but Second Ave Sagas gave it a good review.

As for connecting Penn and GCT, I've always thought an extension of the S would be ideal. Connecting NY's two rail hubs, and Time Square would be perfect.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/w...outh-Plans.png
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...teway-project/

Design-mind Mar 28, 2013 2:40 PM

This is a great update yankeesfan1000. It is a great overview of all the projects west of the Moynihan station, which will be even busier in the near future.

Eidolon Mar 28, 2013 6:24 PM

Move Madison Square Garden to give Penn Station more space: Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer

By Erin Durkin
March 27, 2013


http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopo...g28n-3-web.jpg

Quote:

Madison Square Garden should be planted somewhere else, a city pol says.

Penn Station is bursting at the seams — and to give it room to expand, the city should refuse to give the Garden an indefinite permit to stay atop the cramped station, Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer argues.

Instead, the city should extend the Garden’s permit — which expired in January — for only 10 years while the arena looks for a new spot, Stringer says.

The Garden recently has sunk nearly $1 billion into a massive renovation, and any deal to move would probably involve big public subsidies.

But Stringer said it’s crucial for the arena to relocate for the third time in its history.

“It is time to build a more spacious, attractive and efficient station that will further encourage transit use, reduce driving into the city and spur economic growth,” he says.
“While we need to ensure the Garden always has a vibrant and accessible home in Manhattan, moving the arena is an important first step to improving Penn Station.”

Sites that have been suggested include Ninth Ave. and W. 30th St., now the site of a general mail facility, or behind the General Post Office between W. 31st and W. 33rd Sts.


The post office itself will be the future home of Amtrak operations now at Penn Station.

The City Planning Commission and City Council will have final say on the permit, while Stringer’s vote is advisory. The Council might resist giving the Garden what it wants because Cablevision, which arena owner James Dolan also runs, has experienced recent labor strife.

A spokesman for Madison Square Garden said the arena was being “unfairly singled out” since no other sports venue in the city has a time limit on its operations.

I'd personally prefer that the Garden be relocated even further west, but out of those two sites I like 9th Ave. and 30th St. the most, the whole point is to get the garden somewhere where it won't block up traffic more than it has to.

ardecila Mar 28, 2013 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000 (Post 6069822)
As for connecting Penn and GCT, I've always thought an extension of the S would be ideal. Connecting NY's two rail hubs, and Time Square would be perfect.

If you're gonna dig a tunnel, why not dig one that suburban trains can use? That way an NJT train can deliver riders to both Penn and GCT and then take them even further out to Stamford, or an LIRR train can deliver riders to Newark. It also decreases pedestrian traffic at both Penn and GCT, since fewer riders need to transfer to the subway.

The only reason nobody's talking about this is because you'd eventually have to integrate NJT and MTA. You'd basically need to create a new agency to run commuter services across the tri-state area, or come up with some confusing arrangement to let each agency's trains continue onto the other agency's territory.

The S can't really be extended, anyway.... it's boxed in at both ends.

k1052 Mar 29, 2013 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 6070781)
If you're gonna dig a tunnel, why not dig one that suburban trains can use? That way an NJT train can deliver riders to both Penn and GCT and then take them even further out to Stamford, or an LIRR train can deliver riders to Newark. It also decreases pedestrian traffic at both Penn and GCT, since fewer riders need to transfer to the subway.

The only reason nobody's talking about this is because you'd eventually have to integrate NJT and MTA. You'd basically need to create a new agency to run commuter services across the tri-state area, or come up with some confusing arrangement to let each agency's trains continue onto the other agency's territory.

The S can't really be extended, anyway.... it's boxed in at both ends.

The ESA tail tracks already extend to 37th St so a no station extension a few blocks to Penn shouldn't be that hard (or even terrifically expensive) once Water Tunnel 1 is shut down for overhaul. Combine with 2 new Hudson tunnels and a new Portal Bridge then the city would have all the capacity it needs for a good while.

Personally I'd vote for NJT to be rolled into the MTA along with PATH (the PA has no business running this or dumping amounts of money even the MTA would consider obscene into the WTC hub).

Submariner Mar 29, 2013 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 6069528)
Just to clarify, Moynihan is happening regardless, and the current Penn isn't going anywhere.

The MSG site prevents a grand entrance and aboveground concourse from being built, though, and blocks 6 million square feet of air rights for new towers.

But the final result will include everything you see in the current Penn. The difference would be an expanded underground and grand new aboveground space.

And, of course, the 6 million square feet of air rights will mean huge new towers. The previous Vornado plan called for two towers, each taller than ESB, flanking a gigantic new glass train station hall.

So Moynihan will then be an expansion of Penn? Will it serve Amtrak?

Busy Bee Mar 29, 2013 10:07 PM

Just a thought, but it would be awesome to see the 33rd St leg of PATH extended through the new Hudson tunnel back into New Jersey tunneling under JFK or Bergenline through Union City, West NY terminating in Cliffside Park or Palisades Park. NJT bus service wold hate the idea, but would/could spark massive investment into those cities.

ardecila Mar 29, 2013 11:40 PM

While we're in fantasy territory... through route the 7 with the L? You'd have to switch the L to IRT rolling stock and rebuild some platforms, but it's a hell of a lot easier than going to Secaucus.

k1052 Mar 30, 2013 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 6071826)
Just a thought, but it would be awesome to see the 33rd St leg of PATH extended through the new Hudson tunnel back into New Jersey tunneling under JFK or Bergenline through Union City, West NY terminating in Cliffside Park or Palisades Park. NJT bus service wold hate the idea, but would/could spark massive investment into those cities.

PATH is locked in to the 33rd St terminus due to subsequent subway construction directly conflicting with any ROW for extension.

k1052 Mar 30, 2013 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 6071924)
While we're in fantasy territory... through route the 7 with the L? You'd have to switch the L to IRT rolling stock and rebuild some platforms, but it's a hell of a lot easier than going to Secaucus.

Another proposal I've seen is to extend the 7 to a new terminal at 9th Ave/14th St and create a level transfer with the L which would be extended to Secaucus. In theory this would better distribute the NJ L train ridership amongst the 7 and Manhattan trunk lines.

Nexis4Jersey Mar 30, 2013 3:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 6070805)
The ESA tail tracks already extend to 37th St so a no station extension a few blocks to Penn shouldn't be that hard (or even terrifically expensive) once Water Tunnel 1 is shut down for overhaul. Combine with 2 new Hudson tunnels and a new Portal Bridge then the city would have all the capacity it needs for a good while.

Personally I'd vote for NJT to be rolled into the MTA along with PATH (the PA has no business running this or dumping amounts of money even the MTA would consider obscene into the WTC hub).

Theres just one problem , the different voltages and power sources would make inner connecting the systems hard and expensive. Sure Tunneling is easy , but everything is a pain sadly. As for NJT being merged into the MTA , what is with New Yorkers always trying to merge NJ agencies in NYC.....it makes no sense and pisses us off on this side of the Hudson. Same with the PA , its still better shape then the MTA ever will be. Sure the WTC is a boondoggle but that's no reason to merge the PATH into the MTA.... You can merge the fares but that's about it , other then that , what would NY gain from a Jersey Centric system , and a New Jersey Agency.....? Sounds like New York trying to "state" grab again....

Nexis4Jersey Mar 30, 2013 4:59 PM

My Not so far fetched Regional Proposals call for merging all the commuter rail services into one new Agency.... The Northern , Eastern and Western Networks would replace Metro North , the Long Island Railroad , and New Jersey Transit. The Long Island Railroad would be refitted with overhead wires and expanded into the City to Fulton Street Transit Hub , and Restored lines on Long Island creating a completed regional island system. Metro North would be expanded down to Fulton Street Transit hub and along the I-287 Corridor. Various Regional Rail Expansions would be done to the system in Connecticut like the Beacon/Maybrook line , New Milford Extension , Bristol & Torrington Branches... New Jersey Transit would see numerous Regional Rail Expansions up West of the Hudson to Newburgh , down in the Central , West into the Western Foothills. The Network would be fully electrified , the Urban Areas would see a few stations restored like Ampere , Harrison , Weequahic , Hillside , North Paterson , Kearny , and North Arlington. The through lines would replace existing line services , like the Morristown/Ronkonkoma line would become the East-West Corridor , or the Harlem/Staten Island RR/North Jersey Coast line would become the North-South Corridor. There would also be a 2 part beltway line composed of old abandoned Freight lines in Staten Island , New Jersey and a lightly used line in Brooklyn and Queens....along with the I-287 Corridor. These through and ring systems would form the backbone of the system , carrying most of the Passengers. Branch services and short lines like the Gladstone or Far Rockaway Branch would terminate at the current terminals. This would not be the only system I would merge either. New England would get its own Regional Rail agency , SEPTA would lose its Regional Rail to a new Agency covering Southeastern/Eastern Pennsylvania , Delaware , Eastern Maryland and South Jersey's Rail System. Maryland , DC , and Virgina would get another agency , Amtrak would remain....

A sample.... https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...01011,1.674042

East-West Corridor
Philpsburg - Main Street
Philpsburg - US 22 / NJ 57 Park / Ride
Washington

Hackettstown
Mount Olive
Netcong
Lake Hopatcong
Mount Arlington
Dover
Denville
Mount Tabor
Morris Plains
Morristown
Convent Station
Madison
Chatham
Summit
Short Hills
Millburn
Maplewood
South Orange
Orange
Brick Church
Newark Board Street
Harrison
Journal SQ
West 4th Street
Fulton Street
Borough Hall

Atlantic Avenue
Nostrand Avenue
East New York
Jamaica
Hollis
Queens Village
Floral Park
Stewart Manor
Nassau Boulevard
Garden City
East Garden City
East Meadow
Levittown

Farmingdale
Pinelawn
Wyandanch
Deer Park
Brentwood
Central Islip
Ronkonkoma


North - South Regional Service
Wassaic
Dover Plains
Harlem Valley – Wingdale
Appalachian Trail
Pawling
Patterson
Southeast
Brewster
Croton Falls
Purdy's
Golden's Bridge
Katonah
Bedford Hill
Mt. Kisco
Chappaqua
Pleasentville
Hawthrone
Valhalla
North White Plains
White Plains
Hartsdale
Scarsdale
Crestwood
Tuckahoe
Bronxville
Fleetwood
Mount Vernon West
Wakefield
Woodlawn
Fordham
Harlem-125th Street
Grand Central
Union Square
Fulton Street

St. George
Tompkinsville
Stapleton
Clinton
Grasmere
Old Town
Dongan Hills
Jefferson Ave
Grant City
New Dorp
Oakwood Heights
Bay Terrace
Great Kills
Eltingville
Annadale
Huguenot
Prince's Bay
Pleasant Plains
Richmond Valley
Nassau
Atlantic
Perth Amboy
South Amboy
Laurence Harbor
Matawan
Hazlet
Middletown
Red Bank
Little Silver
Long Branch
Elberon
Allenhurst
Asbury Park
Bradley Beach
Belmar
Spring Lake
Manasquan
Point Pleasant Beach
Bay Head


Northeast Corridor - Local Service
New London Union
Niantic
Old Lyme

Old Saybrook
Westbrook
Clinton
Madison
Guilford
Branford
East Haven
Fair Haven

New Haven - State Street
New Haven - Union Station
West Haven
Orange

Milford
Stratford
East Bridgeport
Bridgeport
Fairfield Metro
Fairfield
Southport
Green Farms
Westport
East Norwalk
South Norwalk
Rowayton
Darien
Norton Heights
East Stamford
Stamford
Old Greenwich
Riverside
Cos-Cob
Greenwich
Port Chester
Rye
Harrison
Mamaroneck
Larchmont
New Rochelle
Woodside
Orchard Beach-City Island
Co-Op City
Morris Park
Parkchester
Hunts Point
Astoria
Sunnyside JCT

New York Penn Station
Secaucus JCT
Newark Penn Station
Newark Liberty Airport
North Elizabeth
Elizabeth
Linden
Rahway
Metropark
Metuchen
Edison
New Brunswick
North Brunswick
Princeton JCT
Hamilton
Trenton


Regional Connector
Hillburn
East Suffern
Airmont
West Nyack
South Nyack
Tarrytown JCT

Irvington
Ardsley on Hudson
Dobbs Ferry
Hasting on Hudson
Greystone
Glenwood
Yonkers
Ludlow
Riverdale
Spuyten Duyvil
Marbel Hill
University Heights
Morris Heights
Yankees-163rd Street
Mott Haven
Northern Boulvard - Woodside
Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst
Ridgewood
East New York
Canarsie
Flatbush Ave
Ocean Parkway
Bay Ridge

St. George (Underground)
Bayonne (Underground)
Port Elizabeth (Depressed)
Midtown Elizabeth (Elevated-Viaduct)
Elmora
Cranford
Garwood
Westfield
Fanwood
Netherwood
Plainfield
Dunellen
Bound Brook

Raritan

Northern Connector Xpress
North White Plains
White Plains
Hartsdale
Scarsdale
Mount Vernon West
Fordham
Mott Haven
Northern Boulevard - Woodside
Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst

Forest Hills
Kew Gardens
Jamaica


I-287 Railway Corridor
New Haven - State Street
New Haven - Union Station
West Haven
Orange

Milford
Stratford
East Bridgeport
Bridgeport
Fairfield Metro
Fairfield
Southport
Green Farms
Westport
East Norwalk
South Norwalk
Rowayton
Darien
Norton Heights
East Stamford
Stamford
Old Greenwich
Riverside
Cos-Cob
Greenwich
Port Chester
Purchase
East White Plains
(Underground)
White Plains (Underground)
Fairview (Underground)
Elmsford (Underground)
Tarrytown JCT (Underground)
South Nyack
West Nyack
Airmont
East Suffern
(Underground)
Hillburn

401PAS Apr 1, 2013 1:20 PM

:previous:

WOW, very ambisious and detailed. While some of these I think would be fairly reachable as they reuse existing tracks/lines, the new tunnels and/or bridges that you are envisioning would be wonderful but certainly not a near term item. I am 1000% for expanding the regions transit lines. Use it every day and any improvement would certainly help not just NYC but also the entire Tri-State area's econmoy.

Nexis4Jersey Apr 4, 2013 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 401PAS (Post 6074002)
:previous:

WOW, very ambisious and detailed. While some of these I think would be fairly reachable as they reuse existing tracks/lines, the new tunnels and/or bridges that you are envisioning would be wonderful but certainly not a near term item. I am 1000% for expanding the regions transit lines. Use it every day and any improvement would certainly help not just NYC but also the entire Tri-State area's econmoy.

No , the only through running that can be done right off the bat is the NEC local service. The rest of the proposes require tunneling , bridges , extensive track rebuilds , most stations are old historic stations some are still standing and can be reused. But it would greatly benefit the region by having a belt Regional Rail line. I think Regional Rail is the best choice...over Heavy Subway Rail due to the Suburban sections of the line.

The Regional Connector would serve as a major Rail line in the region , connecting over 22 major lines...current and future.


Regional Connector
Hillburn (Underground) -- Connecting Service : MNRR Main/Bergen/Port Jervis lines , Future : MNRR Pascack Valley line
East Suffern (Underground)
Airmont
Nanuet (Depressed)
West Nyack -- Connecting Service : Future MNRR West Shore line
South Nyack (Underground)
Tarrytown JCT (Underground) -- Connecting Service : Future MNRR I-287 Rail line to White Plains & Port Chester
Irvington -- Connecting Service : MNRR Hudson Line
Ardsley on Hudson
Dobbs Ferry
Hasting on Hudson
Greystone
Glenwood
Yonkers -- Connecting Service : Future Yonkers - White Plains BRT
Ludlow
Riverdale
Spuyten Duyvil
Marbel Hill -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 1 Train @ Marbel Hill
University Heights
Morris Heights
Yankees-163rd Street
Mott Haven (Underground) -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 2 & 5 Trains @ 3 Av - 149 St
Northern Boulvard - Woodside
Roosevelt Ave - Woodside -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 7,E,F,M,R Trains @ Jackson Heights - Roosevelt Ave
Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst
Metroplitian Ave - Ridgewood -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway M Train
East New York -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway A,C,J,Z,L Trains @ Broadway JCT & Long Island Railroad @ East New York
Canarsie
Flatbush Ave -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 2,5 Trains
Avenue H -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway Q Train @ Avenue H
Ocean Parkway
New Utretch Ave - Borough Park -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway D Train @ 62nd Street
Bay Ridge -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway R Train @ Bay Ridge Ave
St. George (Underground) -- Connecting Service : Staten Island Ferry & Future North Shore BRT or LRT
Bayonne (Underground) -- Connecting Service : Hudson Bergen Light Rail @ 8th Street
Port Elizabeth (Depressed) -- Connecting Service : Future , Newark - Elizabeth LRT
Midtown Elizabeth (Elevated-Viaduct) -- Connecting Service : Northeast Corridor , Future , Newark-Elizabeth LRT
Elmora
Cranford -- Connecting Service : Raritan Valley line
Garwood
Westfield
Fanwood
Netherwood
Plainfield
Dunellen
Bound Brook -- Connecting Service : Future New Brunswick LRT
Bridgewater -- Connecting Service : Future West Trenton & Flemington lines
Somerville
Raritan

Mister Uptempo Apr 9, 2013 7:38 PM

Public Hearing on MSG - Wednesday, April 10, 2013
 
Just a note to anyone within the NYC metro with any interest in the future of Penn Station/Madison Square Garden - the Planning Commission of the City of New York will meet tomorrow, Wednesday, April 10, 2013, during which a public hearing will be held to discuss Madison Square Garden's request on renewal of its special use permit, as well as a proposal for more signage outside the venue.

Meeting starts at 10:00AM, at Spector Hall, 22 Reade Street.

The agenda for the meeting has MSG's requests listed as the last items to be addressed, items 24, 25, and 26.

Towersteve Apr 9, 2013 10:19 PM

I think a good solution for New Jersey would be to use the under utilized Secaucus junction as a starting point to expand PATH. It would drastically reduce traffic to the GW and Lincoln if you built PATH tunnels from Weehawken to the new 7 train expansion on the west side and to the 72nd street 1,2,3 station. You could connect these to the already in progress Hudson/Bergen Light Rail. It would make the Jersey Gold Coast comporable to Queen's and Brooklyn at much less cost and difficulty than the ARC Tunnel or Gateway proposal.

Towersteve Apr 9, 2013 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 6071826)
Just a thought, but it would be awesome to see the 33rd St leg of PATH extended through the new Hudson tunnel back into New Jersey tunneling under JFK or Bergenline through Union City, West NY terminating in Cliffside Park or Palisades Park. NJT bus service wold hate the idea, but would/could spark massive investment into those cities.

This would be amazing and is soooo over do! Unless you love standing in a shoving match for an hour at the Port Authority!

k1052 Apr 10, 2013 1:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Towersteve (Post 6084730)
This would be amazing and is soooo over do! Unless you love standing in a shoving match for an hour at the Port Authority!

PATH could never accommodate the huge surge in ridership such an extension would cause, even if it were physically possible (it isn't). The PA also has no interest in any major expansion of PATH for the foreseeable future. If NJ wants more heavy rail transit then a deal is going to have to be made with the MTA to extend NYCT into NJ (perhaps two or three lines even). Given the dismal prospects of any increase in NJT service into NYC for the the next couple decades it might be time for the state to face reality.

Busy Bee Apr 10, 2013 2:02 AM

Nothing we don't already know, but at least the "big vision" is getting national exposure, per NPR.

New York's Penn Station Makeover Faces Arena Sized Obstacle

April 09, 2013 3:00 PM

Every day, more than 600,000 thousand rail commuters navigate the crowded maze of tunnels and tracks that is Penn Station. Mass transit advocates would like to replace the aging station with a world-class transportation hub. But there's a big obstacle: Madison Square Garden, the arena that sits directly on top of Penn Station. And the Garden's owners show no signs of moving.

Listen Here.

NYguy Apr 12, 2013 2:37 PM

http://commercialobserver.com/2013/0...ssion-hearing/

Opponents and Defenders of MSG Spar at Planning Commission Hearing]


By Gus Delaporte 4/11/13

Quote:

Shortly into yesterday’s City Planning Commission public hearing on the special permit application for Madison Square Garden—an event that would stretch into the evening—a comparison to Brooklyn’s Barclays Center was made. It was an early indication of what would be a recurring theme throughout the day. A number of obstacles facing the Garden, from its age and inferior infrastructure to its request for special signage, were brought to the fore as Planning Commissioner Amanda Burden heard from a list of 50 speakers, ranging from State Assemblyman Richard Gottfried to former New York Knick Larry Johnson, he of the four-point play.

Defenders of Madison Square Garden’s request to renew its special permit to operate an arena in perpetuity point to the competitive environment its finds itself in these days, with the newly built Barclays Center a short subway ride away from the bowels of the arena. The Garden’s $1 billion renovation plan—two thirds complete—was inevitable and unavoidable in the competitive landscape, they claimed. “[Madison Square Garden] couldn’t wait,” Elise Wagner, partner at Kramer Levin, said on behalf of the Garden. “They were in a competitive environment with Barclays being built and they decided to invest.”

Weaknesses brought into the open included the Garden’s inferior loading facilities, which are inadequately sized to accommodate modern trucking. Citing the Barclays Center’s ability to seamlessly handle trucking, Ms. Burden asked Joel Fisher, executive vice president at Madison Square Garden, how many trucks the arena can accommodate.

“We can’t bring any semis in,” Mr. Fisher replied.

“That’s exactly right,” Ms. Burden said.

The question was continually raised as to whether the term on Madison Square Garden’s permit should be limited to 10 years, or some other period of time, to allow the arena to amortize its current investment. The Garden’s defenders challenged the notion....However, the investment itself was challenged by some members of the Commission, the most vocal of which may have been Irwin Cantor, who declared: “If you put lipstick on a pig, it’s still a pig.”

It will take time for the Commission to process the testimony it heard yesterday. Though a vote on the Garden’s future was a possibility, Ms. Burden put the notion to rest early in her remarks. “Today is a time for us to listen, to ask questions and to learn the facts,” she said.

As part of the Uniform Land Use Review Procedure, a vote needs to be made by the end of May and is likely to take place at the Commission’s hearing on May 22. Following a vote, the process will proceed to review by the City Council.

Sky88 Apr 13, 2013 9:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 6088424)
http://commercialobserver.com/2013/0...ssion-hearing/

Opponents and Defenders of MSG Spar at Planning Commission Hearing]


By Gus Delaporte 4/11/13


NYguy, what do you think about the possibility of moving to another place the MSG. It is feasible or not? Besides the three solutions, which are shown in the picture can be taken into account, or for the MGM is too complicated to find a new place?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8539/8...9a499349_b.jpg

If the MSG will be moved in the future, Vornado can will build tall towers as are shown in the picture. And a tower can will be taller than the ESB?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8125/8...c68fa525_b.jpg


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