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-   -   NEW YORK | Moynihan Station / MSG Renovation (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum//showthread.php?t=185034)

JACKinBeantown Jul 3, 2012 2:38 AM

Yes, even flushing money down the toilets would improve the place because at least it would scour some of the filth away.

aquablue Jul 5, 2012 11:11 PM

NY's major train station. A basement. If Tokyo Shinjuku station (another basement) can be made to look appealing, I'm sure this one can put on a brighter face.

The lack of development on the Monyihan station is disgusting. It SHOULD NOT take over a decade to even begin work.

NYguy Jul 7, 2012 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 5757331)
It SHOULD NOT take over a decade to even begin work.

It won't. It's ironic that Penn Station has been allowed to stay the way it has for so long, when not that far away, Grand Central serves as the example of what a major train terminal should be. But that has a lot to do with the real estate, mainly that Penn Station is literally a basement. There is very little they can do there without razing Madison Square Garden. This is where Moynihan Station comes in.


http://www.khl.com/magazines/interna...=breaking-news
Skanska wins New York station contract

by Sarah Ann McCay
17 Jun 2012


Quote:

Swedish contractor Skanska has been awarded an US$ 148 million contract to expand New York's Penn Station. The contract, awarded by the Moynihan Station Development Corporation, will see the contractor expand the length and width of the existing West End Concourse, which currently serves as a secondary access point to train platforms for Long Island Railroad, New Jersey Transit and Amtrak commuters.

Skanska will also build two new entrances to the station from Eighth Avenue to the West End Concourse. The station currently serves around 300,000 passengers a day. The first phase of the project is scheduled for completion in July 2016

http://www.theconstructionindex.co.u...hanstation.jpg
http://www.theconstructionindex.co.u...cts-worth-300m

NYguy Jul 10, 2012 9:26 PM

http://observer.com/2012/07/inside-t...d-post-office/

Inside the Retro-Futuristic Moynihan Station: Newest Plans Are a Throwback to the Old Post Office

http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...3-am.png?w=600
The first phase of Moynihan Station will be limited largely to new entrances on the west side of Eighth Avenue.


July 10, 2012
By Matt Chaban

Quote:

Back in May, Amtrak invited bigs from both sides of the Hudson, Albany and D.C. to come celebrate the start of phase one construction on Moynihan Station—even Rosario Dawson, train aficionado, was there. Yet more striking than the silver screen star were the new renderings for Moynihan Station that Amtrak showed off.

Not just the banal concourses of Phase 1 that have bandied about before—nothing new there—but honest to god interiors of the grand train hall meant to restore Penn Station to its former glory inside the old Farley Post office. In a bid for both historical preservation and cost savings, the roof of the post office will no longer be ripped off and replaced with a new glass ceiling, but instead the existing one, with its massive steel trusses will be preserved.

Naturally, the very next morning, The Observer was hot on the trail of those renderings. (Really, do we care about anything else?) Sadly, one bureaucrat or press handler after another said, well, those are preliminary designs, so we’re not really ready to reveal them.

But Amtrak just did, even if it didn’t mean to, in its latest report on high-speed rail for the Northeast Corridor (coming someday, we promise, fingers crossed), which the fine folks over at WNYC’s Transportation Nation picked up. Therein lie the renderings we were after, along with a lot of other cool high-speed rail pics that will keep us dreaming until we can finally get on board.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...ance.jpg?w=600
The entrance on 33rd Street includes a new subway entrance.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...8-am.png?w=600
Inside, everything is slick 20th Century airport chic.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...onsm.jpg?w=575
The biggest changes will not be the entrances but new platforms underground and rejiggered tracks.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...-am1.png?w=600
The swooping new concourse for the first phase, reminiscent of Santiago Calatrava's World Trade Center PATH station.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...6-am.png?w=600
The real show stopper is the new train hall, which keeps the old Farley Post Office roof intact, a cost-saving and preservation-friendly move.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...4816.jpg?w=598
This is contrary to a 2006 proposal, seen here, that would have done away with the old roof and replaced it with a soaring new one.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...0-am.png?w=580
New corridors will connect riders not only to trains but retail opportunities—much of the old post office will be converted into shops, like at Washington and San Fancisco's train stations.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...9-51.jpg?w=600
This is all part of a bigger plan for high speed rail, which Amtrak presented at the post office in May. A huge new station would be built for this along 30th Street.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...0-am.png?w=600
This would help accommodate new bullet trains traveling up and down the Northeast Corridor.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...1618.png?w=600
By Amtrak's own admission, this rollout will take not a few decades to complete.


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...7795.png?w=579
But the opportunities for connectivity throughout the region are big.

jd3189 Jul 10, 2012 9:30 PM

:previous: Amazing. We're finally advancing in public transportation to be comparable with Europe and East Asia.

NYC2ATX Jul 11, 2012 4:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 5761608)
http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...6-am.png?w=600
The real show stopper is the new train hall, which keeps the old Farley Post Office roof intact, a cost-saving and preservation-friendly move.

what I love about this is not only is this a cost-saving and preservation-friendly move, as was said, but this I feel is yet more reminiscent of the old Penn Station than even the original Moynihan plan was, with all that exposed steel on the ceiling.

WIN. WIN. WIN. :notacrook::cheers::banana:

Dac150 Jul 11, 2012 11:40 PM

All very exciting news - I just hope they actually follow through . . .

Arawooho Jul 12, 2012 12:47 AM

Hmmm, I like this project but my biggest concern is if people will be able to actually pronounce "Moynihan station" lol

Busy Bee Jul 12, 2012 11:42 PM

Well the distinction between Moynihan and Penn to the public will be pretty limited. I think the majority will just call it Penn which leads me to wonder about the wisdom of honor namings anyway. It's an admirable tradition but I think there are other ways that don't hamper clarity or distinction as far as the public I concerned. I'm not a fan of most of these renamings Triboro = RFK included.

NYguy Jul 13, 2012 1:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 5763719)
Well the distinction between Moynihan and Penn to the public will be pretty limited.

Somewhat, but the distinction will be that when people are referencing the Farley building in particular, that will be Moynihan. Of course, if you're coming into Manhattan on the LIRR, you'll be arriving in Penn Station and not Moynihan. But Penn Station doesn't have a visible presence on the street. You can't really point to it (except for a few signs), not the case for Moynihan.

aquablue Jul 13, 2012 4:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StatenIslander237 (Post 5761990)
what I love about this is not only is this a cost-saving and preservation-friendly move, as was said, but this I feel is yet more reminiscent of the old Penn Station than even the original Moynihan plan was, with all that exposed steel on the ceiling.

WIN. WIN. WIN. :notacrook::cheers::banana:

It's a bit of a let down compared to some of the previous proposals though. The roof looks less impressive than before. Still, this needs to be done and it is a decent enough proposal.

ardecila Jul 13, 2012 8:36 AM

Well, the distinction has always been confusing to me. I assume the notion is to eventually direct intercity passengers to the "Moynihan" facilities in the Farley building, including the large atriums, waiting rooms, shopping, and public spaces. Meanwhile, the current "Penn" will become more of a secondary entrance, handling primarily commuters who are arriving for NJT and LIRR on foot or via subway.

NYC2ATX Jul 13, 2012 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 5764063)
It's a bit of a let down compared to some of the previous proposals though. The roof looks less impressive than before. Still, this needs to be done and it is a decent enough proposal.

I suppose, but I felt like the old design was striking in some ways but odd in others..the roof didn't really evoke the old Penn in my eyes, it was more of a contemporary roof tacked on to the unremarkable interior of a pre-war building. You may disagree, but my heart still breaks for the loss of the old station and I think the new design has that old train station feel that the current Penn ironically never had.

NYC4Life Jul 13, 2012 4:43 PM

Very exciting of course, but nothing beats the old penn station. Still, a much needed improvement over the current station.

NYguy Feb 5, 2013 1:04 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/05/ny...=nyregion&_r=0

New Idea for Penn Station Entails Relocating a College

By CHARLES V. BAGLI
February 4, 2013


Quote:

In the early 1990s, Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan proposed transforming the sprawling post office on Eighth Avenue, with its Corinthian columns, into a grand entryway to the busiest transit hub in North America, Pennsylvania Station. Since then, a succession of plans for what is to be known as Moynihan Station have surfaced with fanfare, only to sink later. Now, a major developer is promoting a proposal to improve the viability of the project by moving the Borough of Manhattan Community College to the back of the post office, which is across Eighth Avenue from Madison Square Garden and Penn Station.

Under the proposal by the developer, the Related Companies, the community college would move 3.8 miles north of its current location downtown to 1.1 million square feet of space in the post office building. The college would be the anchor tenant in the complex. Related Companies would simultaneously build a new train hall, train platforms and underground connections to the cramped and labyrinthine Penn Station at the front end of the post office. In return, Related would receive the college’s potentially valuable campus, which spans four city blocks near the Hudson River, for residential development.

Related’s chairman, Stephen M. Ross, has spent more than a year wooing college officials, and he met last month with senior officials in the administration of Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, hoping to persuade them that this is the best way to move the project forward, real estate executives said. But Mr. Cuomo and the City University of New York, which runs the college, have not embraced the proposal, which has been perceived by some in the real estate industry as more advantageous for Related than for the college.

Michael Arena, a CUNY spokesman, would say only that officials have had “preliminary discussions with” Related. Matthew L. Wing, a spokesman for the governor, said, “We’re reviewing the proposal.” Related would not comment on the proposal, which was described by real estate executives who have been briefed on it.

Nearly eight years after Related, and its development partner, Vornado Realty Trust, were selected by the state to build Moynihan Station, the developer is loath to relinquish its development rights. And today, the state has no desire to end the partnership, if only because it would have to reimburse Related for about $25 million in expenses related to the project.

Senator Moynihan wanted to transform the post office building to improve the cramped train station, which is used by more than 500,000 commuters a day. It was also meant to be an act of civic redemption for the 1963 demolition of the much-admired glass and steel train shed that soared over the underground portion of the station. Both the old Penn Station and the post office building were designed by the same firm — McKim, Mead & White. But the development partners had a far more ambitious, $14 billion plan in mind. They sought to demolish Madison Square Garden, which sits over Penn Station, and build a new arena for the Knicks and Rangers inside the post office. With the Garden gone, they planned to overhaul Penn Station, erecting a glass-enclosed train hall, along with department stores and, nearby, office and residential buildings.

The complicated plan collapsed in 2008 because of the recession.

Currently, the state’s development corporation is overseeing about $300 million in work beneath the post office building to create two entrances for Amtrak commuters at 31st and 33rd Streets and to expand the train platforms and the passageway to Penn Station.


yankeesfan1000 Feb 5, 2013 2:11 PM

I've long wondered when BMCC's current building would get the wrecking ball, their current building taken from Battery Park, with the WTC a couple of blocks to the right, or south in the photo below. The idea seems like a good one. Moynihan gets rolling, BMCC relocates essentially a block or less from the busiest train station in NA in a rapidly changing neighborhood, and their current POS building gets the wrecking ball.

http://w1.campusexplorer.com/media/5...e-8135EE2B.jpg
http://www.campusexplorer.com/colleg...photos-videos/

k1052 Feb 5, 2013 2:31 PM

It sounds like a complicated deal to pull off but Related is one of the few companies who could possibly do it. Looks like they'll need to find a way to sweeten the deal though to change the perception that it's a giveaway.

Busy Bee Feb 5, 2013 4:14 PM

I just a wish a similar deal could have been hatched with MSG giving us a recreated Penn interior inside a magnificent and monumental modern glass structure, returning an awe inspiring portal to an awe inspiring city.

NYC4Life Feb 5, 2013 7:47 PM

So much for the new Fiterman Hall building that just recently opened.

NYguy Feb 5, 2013 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000 (Post 6001716)
I've long wondered when BMCC's current building would get the wrecking ball, their current building taken from Battery Park, with the WTC a couple of blocks to the right, or south in the photo below.


While the site of BMCC on the hudson river ( I was once a student there ) would be a great location for residential towers ( the views are great ), I don't think a college is ideally what you would want at the new station, particularly in this part of Midtown where they are trying to attract more of a corporate presence. I liked it better when they were going to incorporate a hotel or office tower into the building. A school just doesn't seem like a good fit. Also I remember at one time more than half of the students there were from Brooklyn. I think we need something at the site that would be a gateway between Manhattan West, and the towers to the east like 15 Penn Plaza.



http://observer.com/2013/02/related-...nihan-station/

Quote:

“Under the proposal by the developer,” The Times writes, “the community college would move 3.8 miles north of its current location downtown to 1.1 million square feet of space in the post office building,” where it would serve as the would-be complex’s anchor tenant.

This would be an upgrade from BMCC’s 780,000 square feet between Chambers Street and North Moore Street fronting on West Street, but this extra space would be dwarfed by Related’s haul, should the plan pan out: BMCC’s site sits on nearly a quarter of a million square feet of land, the majority of which has an unimpeded view of the Hudson River. With a 20 percent bonus for affordable housing or a public plaza, the current zoning would allow the site’s owners to build 2.7 million square feet of space—slightly larger than 4 WTC, as a comparison.

Related may be able to count on the support of New York’s civic elite, who are eager to see Moynihan Station come to life—Robert Yaro of the Regional Plan Association seemed to endorse the deal if it would get Moynihan back on track—but BMCC doesn’t appear to have much interest in the project, especially since it would mean leaving their $325 million, newly-built Fiterman Hall. Plus, there’s a slight legal barrier to overcome: “It was also unclear how the school could legally swap the land without going through an auction,” The Times writes. Unnamed “government officials” told The Times that Related should stick to retail and office tenants, suggesting Google as a possibility.

But Mr. Ross remains undeterred, and Related is reportedly taking the issue directly to Governor Andrew Cuomo, perhaps seeking to appeal to his edifice complex.

Rail>Auto Feb 6, 2013 7:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 6001869)
I just a wish a similar deal could have been hatched with MSG giving us a recreated Penn interior inside a magnificent and monumental modern glass structure, returning an awe inspiring portal to an awe inspiring city.

I like the garden. Will they be able to do this under the current land swap proposal?

JACKinBeantown Feb 6, 2013 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 6002582)
While the site of BMCC on the hudson river ( I was once a student there ) would be a great location for residential towers ( the views are great ), I don't think a college is ideally what you would want at the new station, particularly in this part of Midtown where they are trying to attract more of a corporate presence. I liked it better when they were going to incorporate a hotel or office tower into the building. A school just doesn't seem like a good fit. Also I remember at one time more than half of the students there were from Brooklyn. I think we need something at the site that would be a gateway between Manhattan West, and the towers to the east like 15 Penn Plaza.



http://observer.com/2013/02/related-...nihan-station/


The whole world doesn't need to revolve around corporations. Having students around will liven up the place in a way where a bunch of people in suits won't.

JACKinBeantown Feb 6, 2013 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 5761608)


http://nyoobserver.files.wordpress.c...1618.png?w=600
By Amtrak's own admission, this rollout will take not a few decades to complete.

It goes against today's Now Now Now mentality, but this is a big project and it will take a long time to accomplish. It's definitely worth waiting for, as opposed to not getting at all.

NYguy Feb 6, 2013 9:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown (Post 6003329)
The whole world doesn't need to revolve around corporations.

No, not the whole world, just the city's business districts - those areas specifically designed and zoned to attract corporations and especially around the major transit hubs. You can put students anywhere in the City, even on an island in the middle of the east river.

TheBigGeo08 Feb 7, 2013 2:53 AM

If New Yorkers want an example of an excellent train station, take a look at Philadelphia's 30th Street Station. All major Amtrak stations should follow that model.

Nexis4Jersey Feb 7, 2013 3:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigGeo08 (Post 6004676)
If New Yorkers want an example of an excellent train station, take a look at Philadelphia's 30th Street Station. All major Amtrak stations should follow that model.

The Old Penn station was similar design to 30th Street and it was bigger then 30th Street. We also have Newark Penn Station a smaller serious of 30th Street Station and Grand Central Terminal so we don't really need any examples of stations to model off of. All we need is the money to build what should be built.

sbarn Feb 7, 2013 3:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigGeo08 (Post 6004676)
If New Yorkers want an example of an excellent train station, take a look at Philadelphia's 30th Street Station. All major Amtrak stations should follow that model.

Yes, because there are no excellent train stations in NYC. :rolleyes:

JACKinBeantown Feb 7, 2013 4:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 6004084)
No, not the whole world, just the city's business districts - those areas specifically designed and zoned to attract corporations and especially around the major transit hubs. You can put students anywhere in the City, even on an island in the middle of the east river.

But NYguy (and I say this objectively, not argumentatively), just about all of Manhattan is a mix of residential and business... even midtown and downtown. The neighborhood around Penn Station certainly is a mix of both and was so long before any recent zoning for the new buildings in the area.

Anyway, I hope Moynihan Station becomes a reality for New York, for rail travel and for rectifying one of the greatest travesties in the history of architecture.

TheBigGeo08 Feb 7, 2013 7:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey (Post 6004707)
The Old Penn station was similar design to 30th Street and it was bigger then 30th Street. We also have Newark Penn Station a smaller serious of 30th Street Station and Grand Central Terminal so we don't really need any examples of stations to model off of. All we need is the money to build what should be built.

TBH Grand Central doesn't work really well. The main hall is impressive but the waiting rooms and platforms are dark and dingy. With the 30th street station, you board trains from the main hall instead of a waiting area in the catacombs. That's what makes the 30th street station unique and exemplary.

NYguy Feb 7, 2013 8:13 AM

Grand Central itself is undergoing a transformation, but nothing really touches it, even the grand PATH and Fulton Street terminals Downtown, as fabulous as they are.



http://gothamist.com/2013/02/05/rela...attan_real.php

Moynihan Station Developer Now Wants Free TriBeCa Real Estate


http://gothamist.com/attachments/gar..._moynihan1.jpg
A rendering of one of the entrances to the long-suffering Moynihan Station. BMCC would, in theory, go in an office building round back


Quote:

As much as we hope and pray that it will, the depressing subterranean mess that is the modern Penn Station isn't just going to one day magically fix itself. And the ambitious and long-gestating project to turn the Farley Post Office across the street from the current station into Moynihan Station isn't going to pay for itself. Which was sort of why we thought the city picked a developer for the project. But now, it seems, the project's developer, Related, is trying to think outside the box to make it feasible. According to the Times the company is actively trying to woo Manhattan's community college, BMCC, to leave TriBeCa and move to midtown. This is not a good idea.

The plan spelled out in the Times would be for Related to create 1.1 million square feet of space in a new office building that would go up as the company builds a new train hall, new train platforms and underground connections to the rest of Penn Station. The school would be the anchor tenant in the new building. Which sounds great—we want all of those things—but there is a catch.

In exchange for the new BMCC campus, Related would want the school to hand over its current downtown campus—which considering its location on Chambers Street next to Battery Park City and some of the best public schools in the city could be a potential gold mine. Luckily, BMCC doesn't seem particularly interested. And since the land is the government's it isn't even clear if such a swap would be legal. Right now neither BMCC officials or officials for the Governor (BMCC is a part of CUNY, after all) are saying much about the idea beyond that they've seen it.

Related is reportedly still working on charming BMCC and the Governor on this deal, arguing that it is the only way to restart the long-languishing project. Still, as much as we desperately want to never have to enter the current Penn Station ever again this seems like a raw deal. Related is already well entrenched in the city future (hello, Hudson Yards) and the last thing it needs is an incredibly valuable piece of lower Manhattan real estate as a way to get moving on a project that it should have been working on for more than half a decade. Yes, there was a recession that slowed things down but we're sure there are other anchor tenants out there to jump start the project that wouldn't involve the government giving away more "free" money.

Related should have concentrated on swapping with MSG, since it's already there, rebuild Penn Station along with some new commercial space....


http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/141417232/original.jpg



http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/107968182/original.jpg

sbarn Feb 7, 2013 2:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigGeo08 (Post 6004956)
TBH Grand Central doesn't work really well. The main hall is impressive but the waiting rooms and platforms are dark and dingy. With the 30th street station, you board trains from the main hall instead of a waiting area in the catacombs. That's what makes the 30th street station unique and exemplary.

Doesn't work well? You must be joking. Grand Central serves over 60 million passengers a year, 30th Street Station serves 4.5 million. With the completion of the East Side Access project that will increase dramatically.

k1052 Feb 7, 2013 2:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigGeo08 (Post 6004956)
TBH Grand Central doesn't work really well. The main hall is impressive but the waiting rooms and platforms are dark and dingy. With the 30th street station, you board trains from the main hall instead of a waiting area in the catacombs. That's what makes the 30th street station unique and exemplary.

The platforms are darker than 30th St because they are underground.

Anyone who calls GCT dingy needs to get their prescription checked and the station handles an order of magnate more passengers than 30th with relative ease.

aquablue Feb 7, 2013 7:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 6004994)



Related should have concentrated on swapping with MSG, since it's already there, rebuild Penn Station along with some new commercial space....

http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/107968182/original.jpg

I agree but MSG was never moving because of the Dolans. It won't be now either with the renovation for a long time. No way the Dolans will easily give up their super convenient location right above Penn for a less convenient one without major incentives.

Regarding the plan to put the college in the annex, I disagree with that. That would rule out any future move of MSG and rebuilding of the current station after the renovation has lost its luster. Farley itself doesn't excite me after seeing some of the most recent renderings. It is hardly the super impressive station that a rebuilt Penn could be. The recent renderings were quite unimpressive IMO.

aquablue Feb 7, 2013 8:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 6005147)
The platforms are darker than 30th St because they are underground.

Anyone who calls GCT dingy needs to get their prescription checked and the station handles an order of magnate more passengers than 30th with relative ease.

30th street station can't hold a candle to the ornate headhouse/train sheds of the grand European stations.

I wish GCT had a train shed, but NYC is just too dense and land is too scarce for that.

Penn station was a crime, but it is even more so today that they won't rebuild it and move MSG (blame the Dolans). Farley will never be a replacement for Penn, especially since it won't be taking over the entire building. The recent renderings showed an unimpressive and rather small atrium design.

sbarn Feb 7, 2013 8:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6005654)
30th street station can't hold a candle to the ornate headhouse/train sheds of the grand European stations.

Agreed. I was just in Italy and blown away by Milano Centrale.

k1052 Feb 7, 2013 9:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6005654)
30th street station can't hold a candle to the ornate headhouse/train sheds of the grand European stations.

I wish GCT had a train shed, but NYC is just too dense and land is too scarce for that.

Penn station was a crime, but it is even more so today that they won't rebuild it and move MSG (blame the Dolans). Farley will never be a replacement for Penn, especially since it won't be taking over the entire building. The recent renderings showed an unimpressive and rather small atrium design.

Maybe swap can be done in the future since Javits will eventually have to go. The space for a grand hall at Farley is limited by the building and landmark requirement for new elements ( the glass canopy) not to be viewable from street level. Regardless it will be many more years before MSG can be moved so investing in Moynihan and interim improvements to Penn is the only realistic option right now.

aquablue Feb 7, 2013 9:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbarn (Post 6005713)
Agreed. I was just in Italy and blown away by Milano Centrale.

Agreed, that is a beauty.

DURKEY427 Feb 7, 2013 11:29 PM

Are they demolishing madison square garden?

THE BIG APPLE Feb 8, 2013 12:01 AM

^ They could but won't happen anytime soon. It's just had a major renovation. Plus I expect MSG to be gone in 15-30 years time, considering the urge of development that will surge after the Hudson Yards take full fruition.

NYguy Feb 8, 2013 1:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6005646)
I agree but MSG was never moving because of the Dolans. It won't be now either with the renovation for a long time. No way the Dolans will easily give up their super convenient location right above Penn for a less convenient one without major incentives.

That's why I said Related should have spent that time trying to sway them. I think they had a better shot than with trying to get BMCC to move. Dolan decided to move ahead with renovation in part because Related and Vornado weren't getting anwhere with the Penn Station plans. And while the current MSG renovation looks ok, that's only from the inside - its still the mess it always has been from the outside. But maybe that is the one good sign, no really significant alterations to the outside because Dolan sees a way out in the future. We could only hope.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/env_...cp053m_eas.pdf

Crawford Feb 8, 2013 1:52 AM

The Garden will probably be demolished within 10-15 years. The Dolans are only renovating the interiors; something they do every 15 years or so anyways.

MSG sits on 6 million square feet of development rights, with no height limits. The land is worth far more than the arena itself, so they will eventually sell. They just need to find a new location.

They also need to hope that the new mayor doesn't take the arena by eminent domain. There have been rumblings of this.

THE BIG APPLE Feb 8, 2013 2:20 AM

^ The supertall plans have been floating around for MORE than a decade now, and I know that has to do with the Dolans, but who's to say 15 years doesn't become 25 years. Remember MSG has been critically HATED since its inception in 1964. It has sustained the wrecking ball for 49 years.

aquablue Feb 12, 2013 1:15 AM

http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2013...foot-led-signs

Looks like they want to pretty up MSG with signs.

The article says they want to spend 1 billion dollars on the exterior elements and public experience outside the arena.

It appears to me that they are attempting to put lipstick on a pig.

NYguy Feb 12, 2013 2:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6010977)
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2013...foot-led-signs

Looks like they want to pretty up MSG with signs.

Yeah, you can see some of the images in the pdf above.



http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/02/...mmunity-board/

MSG’s push to stay put concerns community board

February 12, 2013

Quote:

Madison Square Garden’s special permit to operate as an arena expired in January, and a move by the arena to secure a long-term renewal has evoked mixed reactions in the community, DNAinfo reported.

50 years ago, the City Planning Commission issued MSG a special permit which allows it to seat 2,500 people, according to a planning document viewed by DNAinfo. But since Jan. 24, the arena has been relying on a Temporary Certificate of Occupancy, which is set to run out in April.

In an effort to secure a permanent permit, MSG appeared before Community Board 5′s land use committee last week, but the committee said that the arena has no business sitting atop Penn station, which slows down improvements to the city’s most important train station. They added that it would consider a 10-year lease which would give the community a chance to weigh in again in the future.

“The 10-year renewal is an attempt to create a planning period to figure out another location for the Garden,” Raju Mann, acting chairman of CB5′s land use committee, told DNAinfo. “The reason we would like MSG to relocate is because the Garden sits atop Penn Station, which is North America’s most important train station, but is unfortunately woefully over capacity.”

MSG is currently going through the city’s ULURP process to renew its special permit, having also recently sought permission to waive existing rules and install four 77-foot LED display panels on the stadium’s exterior, in a fashion akin to Times Square.

But a spokeswoman for MSG told DNAinfo that there weren’t any grounds to put a time limit on one of the city’s most iconic venues. “They don’t understand why the special permit expires,” Wagner said of MSG. “For an ongoing business, it just doesn’t make sense.”

sbarn Feb 12, 2013 4:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 6011465)
Yeah, you can see some of the images in the pdf above.



http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/02/...mmunity-board/

MSG’s push to stay put concerns community board

February 12, 2013

Wow, this may be one of the few times I agree with a Community Board.

yankeesfan1000 Feb 12, 2013 5:30 PM

Agreed. Hopefully MSG only gets the temporary permit, and is forced to move sooner rather than later.

Busy Bee Feb 12, 2013 5:56 PM

Quote:

“They don’t understand why the special permit expires,” Wagner said of MSG. “For an ongoing business, it just doesn’t make sense.”
Just like pumping half a billion dollars into an arena that will inevitably be torn down doesn't make sense?. Oh wait, sure it does... its called padding the value of the building to blackmail the eventual buyers to pay way for for the structure than what its really worth. Shrewd gentlemen.

Crawford Feb 12, 2013 5:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6010977)
.

The article says they want to spend 1 billion dollars on the exterior elements and public experience outside the arena.

It appears to me that they are attempting to put lipstick on a pig.

The entire renovation costs nearly $1 billion. They aren't really doing anything to the exterior except for some new signs and entrances.

And, yeah, this is lipstick on a pig. They need to sell to Related/Vornado so this redevelopment can get going.

scalziand Feb 12, 2013 7:20 PM

Crazy idea time.

Vornado owns 2 Penn Plaza and the Hotel Pennsylvania. Demo 2 Penn (nobodies going to miss it, unlike the Hotel Penn), and dump the airights from the hotel, existing 2 Penn site, and MSG onto the 2 Penn site. I'm talking a single landmark tower with 6-8 msf of space. Easily 100+floors, maybe even 200fl. Potential WTB territory.

Preservationists get to keep the Hotel Penn, the Dolans get to keep the MSG, the city gets a new WTB.:superwhip

Eidolon Feb 12, 2013 8:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scalziand (Post 6011882)
Preservationists get to keep the Hotel Penn, the Dolans get to keep the MSG, the city gets a new WTB.:superwhip

The problem with the current incarnation of MSG is that it:

1. Brings huge crowds of people to an already overcrowded Penn Station.
2. Is holy-fuck-tier ugly.
3. Makes even the smallest upgrades to the Penn Station prohibitively costly.

To fix Penn Station (and in this case I'm only talking about making it a tolerable space, not restoring it to it's pre-violation glory days) the Garden absolutely has to go somewhere -almost anywhere- else, ASAP. In my opinion, the best location for the next MSG would be somewhere in the Far-West of Manhattan, such as a part of the Javits plot that will become available when the convention center inevitably goes, built on landfill in the Hudson River, or if a benevolent diety is on our side, maybe the future MSG could even replace the absolutely horrible PA Bus Terminal. :yes:


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