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-   -   NEW YORK | Moynihan Station / MSG Renovation (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum//showthread.php?t=185034)

NYguy Feb 9, 2012 4:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 5583365)
I remember little outcry about Penn when they were planning that last deal and very little public interest or hype about it. Why bother writing this now?

It's not that the article is too late, the option (which won't happen) of building on the Javits site is now on the table.


Quote:

How about building a new station adjacent to the tracks on another block and have passageways connecting this new headhouse with the platforms for LIRR/NJT?
Governor Christie killed the idea that was already in the ground for a new station directly next to Penn.


Quote:

Also, why don't they just take over the entire Farley building and use it for everything, not just amtrak.. it appears big enough if the annex is incorporated, no?
One of the reasons even the Farley site was seemed just a bit out of the way to the Dolans was it further removes the site from the subways. In New York, it's all about convenience. Moving all of those passengers a block east just recreates the problem in the opposite direction. It's great to have some service there, but not all. And you would still need to move the Garden to unlock some of that development potential. I think of Grand Central, the success that area has had, and the plans the City is thinking about implementing there to further cement that area as a top business district in not only the City, but the world. Penn Station deserves no less.

KVNBKLYN Feb 9, 2012 4:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 5583365)

How about building a new station adjacent to the tracks on another block and have passageways connecting this new headhouse with the platforms for LIRR/NJT?

That's the idea behind Amtrak's Gateway proposal that went over like a lead balloon last year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 5583365)
Does anybody know if the original Penn had platforms/tracks open to the light? If not, all we need is a decent head-house for all to make up for the loss.

Yes, bringing natural light down to the tracks was one of the hallmarks of the station. The concourse had a glass roof and the floor directly above the tracks also contained glass block to let in as much light as possible. Also, large areas on the northeast and southeast sides of the original building were open to the air.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/de...0/4a19909v.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 5583365)
Also, why don't they just take over the entire Farley building and use it for everything, not just amtrak.. it appears big enough if the annex is incorporated, no?

The final desitnation for most people arriving at Penn Station is to the east. If you move the entrance to the platforms to the west, you're going to increase walking time.

The Farley building makes sense as a entrance for Amtrak passengers who are going on longer journeys. If you're taking a 3 1/2 hour train ride, walking another 5 minutes from Seventh to Eighth Avenues is not going to affect you. However, if you're taking a 30 minute ride on a suburban train every day, that five additional minutes of walk time is a big deal.

Also, the Farley Annex does not lie above the existing platforms like the main part of the Farley building does, so you cannot access the platforms from it.

aquablue Feb 9, 2012 5:17 PM

If they could build something at Penn like the cavernous RER stations or the Madrid Sol station (large underground cavern), the experience would be far better. Just blast a cavern deep around the platforms/tracks that would be raised in the middle and accessed by escalator. Without moving the garden, a major underground cathedral to transport is the best they could aim for.

Go DEEP young man, LOL! The only way is down.

NYguy Feb 9, 2012 5:37 PM

Well, the oppurtunity was there a few years ago, but the costs bogged things down to the point where we would be lucky to get Moynihan completed sooner rather than later.
The first phase alone is expected to take about 4 to 5 years.


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aquablue Feb 9, 2012 5:44 PM

No, the opportunity is gone now because the city blew it. They didn't do enough to intice Dolan out of there which was a massive failure IMO. The garden won't move for at least 20 years I'm sure given the investment... that is why I said, think of something else to improve Penn. Make it a huge underground cavern. If you can't go up, go down. There is no other way now to create a decent commuter station. Monyihan station seems to be a mickey-mouse solution for Amtrak and doesn't solve the Penn problem now at all IMO.

Also, not being able to complete a small head-house station like Monyihan in a decade + is a blasphemy. Any other civilized developed country can build a new station within 5 years. Look at London. This country really has declined, it can no longer do big things. Thank God Europe can do something relatively quickly when it sets its mind to build. We'll all be old men before this country produces anything decent in the sphere of transportation. And if the Republicans win this year, good night for transit funding!!! That's when I say adios.

k1052 Feb 10, 2012 1:21 AM

Given the very low probability that MSG is going anywhere for a good 20-30 years maybe it's time to seriously consider through routing to the lower level of GCT or the East Side access for both Amtrak and NJT. The lower level of GCT has a bunch of unused track and platform space.

aquablue Feb 10, 2012 1:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 5584747)
Given the very low probability that MSG is going anywhere for a good 20-30 years maybe it's time to seriously consider through routing to the lower level of GCT or the East Side access for both Amtrak and NJT. The lower level of GCT has a bunch of unused track and platform space.

I don't think that is possible. No connection to GCT for NJT. Amtrak uses overhead so does NJT, GCT uses third rail.

k1052 Feb 10, 2012 1:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 5584765)
I don't think that is possible. No connection to GCT for NJT. Amtrak uses overhead so does NJT, GCT uses third rail.

I mean turn the unused lower level platforms into a terminal for NJT/Amtrak. The power systems don't have to be compatable for NJT since that would be the end of the line. Some Amtrak Genesis locomotives already have 3rd rail shoes for Penn Station...shouldn't be that terribly difficult to figure out a way to switch to under running when stopped so they can proceed up MNRR territory.

KVNBKLYN Feb 10, 2012 1:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 5584765)
I don't think that is possible. No connection to GCT for NJT. Amtrak uses overhead so does NJT, GCT uses third rail.

Power supply isn't an issue. You can easily install multiple systems along the same tracks. The East River Tunnels have both catenary (for Amtrak and NJT) and third rail (for LIRR) as do several tracks at Penn that are shared by LIRR and NJT. The same could be easily done at GCT.

The obstacle to building a tunnel between Penn Station and GCT is the proximity to Water Tunnel Number 1 which, if damaged during construction, would be catastrophic to the city. There's also a lot of other infrastructure in the way that a connecting tunnel would have to carefully wend its way around. Not impossible, but very difficult.

k1052 Feb 10, 2012 2:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KVNBKLYN (Post 5584798)
Power supply isn't an issue. You can easily install multiple systems along the same tracks. The East River Tunnels have both catenary (for Amtrak and NJT) and third rail (for LIRR) as do several tracks at Penn that are shared by LIRR and NJT. The same could be easily done at GCT.

The obstacle to building a tunnel between Penn Station and GCT is the proximity to Water Tunnel Number 1 which, if damaged during construction, would be catastrophic to the city. There's also a lot of other infrastructure in the way that a connecting tunnel would have to carefully wend its way around. Not impossible, but very difficult.

Water Tunnel No 1 is going to be shut down around 2020 for major repair/rebuild once Water Tunnel No 3 is complete. The case was made previously (during the ARC debacle) for that being the best window of opportunity to connect Penn and GCT without risking the city's water supply. The bulk of the construction work could be accomplished by then leaving only the most delicate work by the water tunnel for last.

Presumably there is going to be another Hudson River tunnel well before Penn Station is rebuilt in a more useful form so I think this makes the most sense in the interim since Penn is out of platform capacity. Even though the ESA will free up slots it's not going to be enough for the next several decades it's going to take to get rid of MSG.

NYguy Feb 10, 2012 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 5583981)
No, the opportunity is gone now because the city blew it. They didn't do enough to intice Dolan out of there which was a massive failure IMO. The garden won't move for at least 20 years I'm sure given the investment... that is why I said, think of something else to improve Penn.

There is only so much the city or state could do, short of eminent domain, and that would be HARD to argue in this case. Dolan also didn't want to move because of issues regarding signage on the 8th Ave side, which is to remain open as a post office, and is significant in its own right. Bitter over the stadium fight, Bloomberg also planned to remove the tax break, which was supposed to be temporary, from MSG.

But while we're talking about what could have been, another blast from the past...

http://www.richardmeier.com/www/#/pr...tates/2/363/0/

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The program for this competition called for the redevelopment of the present Madison Square Garden site into 4.4 msf of office space, including trading floors.

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aquablue Feb 10, 2012 5:48 PM

Thanks for the pics but it is a bit sad to look at them :(

Looking at past plans won't help us. We need to think of a new way to improve Penn now, given what is happening today. If the garden doesn't move, what is the best way to improve Penn? I say gut the station and modernize it. Remove some retail locations and make it more spacious. Since it is obvious that my idea of buying adjacent lots for a new head house won't work because the walk to the tracks would be longer, something else has to be looked for the next 20+ years. The whole place is too crowded. Taking Amtrak out would help free up space at least.

Also, can someone please explain how GCT could be used for acela and NJT trains?

ALso, it is a shame that the post office remains and can't move. The farley should be all amtrak.

KVNBKLYN Feb 10, 2012 6:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 5585646)

Also, can someone please explain how GCT could be used for acela and NJT trains?

The image below probably shows it best. It's one of the alternates studied during the EIR process that resulted in the now-canceled ARC tunnel to the stub-end terminal below 34th Street. This alternate was favored by transit advocates and hopefully will come back at some point, once Water Tunnel Number 1 can be taken out of service.

Everything in green is what's proposed. They're showing a new tunnel under 31st Street and Park Avenue connecting tracks 1-4 of Penn Station to tracks 105-112 of GCT.

http://www.nj-arp.org/arc_altg.gif
http://www.nj-arp.org/arc4.html

Nexis4Jersey Feb 10, 2012 6:49 PM

The New Gateway Project will have tail tracks that will extend past the New Penn station towards GCT which would be the next expansion project probably happen in the late 2020s if the Gateway Project starts now which its looking more likely....the Problem is there is very little room at GCT NJT or Amtrak so a new terminal would be needed.

NYguy Feb 10, 2012 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 5585646)
Thanks for the pics but it is a bit sad to look at them :(

Looking at past plans won't help us. We need to think of a new way to improve Penn now, given what is happening today. If the garden doesn't move, what is the best way to improve Penn? I say gut the station and modernize it. Remove some retail locations and make it more spacious. Since it is obvious that my idea of buying adjacent lots for a new head house won't work because the walk to the tracks would be longer, something else has to be looked for the next 20+ years. The whole place is too crowded. Taking Amtrak out would help free up space at least.


Sadly, not too much will help us because there's no money for most of it. As far as improving Penn Station though, the Farley extension (the post office will have a minor presence there, the lobby on the 8th Ave side) will relieve some of the congestion. I just left the place not too long ago, and even the pre-rush hour crowds are a bit much. It is dangerously overcrowded, particularly on the lower level where there are not many exits. That should be the main goal of any improvement there - quick exits from that lower concourse. Having daylight reach the tracks is fine, but not a necessity.

As far as Grand Central goes, Amtrak used to run trains out of there, and currently the Long Island Railroad is on course with the opening of the "East Side Access" that will allow commuters the options of going to either Grand Central or Penn Station. As far as getting NJ Transit extended to Grand Central though, I wouldn't expect it in this generation. Maybe something could be done in conjunction with the 2nd Ave subway extension, but I doubt it. What the City is looking at now is the possibility of extending the 7 line into Secaucus. That in turn would connect NJ Transit trains with not only the west side, but Grand Central, the east side, and beyond (Queens). And it would be no different than what many commuters do now anyway, changing at Newark or Hoboken to PATH trains for more direct service.

THE BIG APPLE Feb 11, 2012 3:24 AM

This is the closest thing we're going to get to an OLD Penn Station. BUT still not close as this was built as a POST OFFICE and Penn Station (old) was built as a TRANSPORTATION HUB.

vandelay Feb 11, 2012 6:28 PM

The plan to move MSG to the far westside is a good one. MSG is a black hole on the grid. In the new location it'll be fed by the west side highway and the brand new 7 station. Javits is another black hole. It makes a lot of sense to build a convention center closer to JFK. It might mean more infrastructure and development for the airport. Maybe in the long term it'll mean a direct connection from JFK to Manhattan.

Of course this is all fantasy, so why not hire Robert Stern to design a station over the current Penn Station? 15CPW is a palace for the 1%, why not give the 99% a palace of their own.

aquablue Feb 11, 2012 7:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandelay (Post 5587107)
The plan to move MSG to the far westside is a good one. MSG is a black hole on the grid. In the new location it'll be fed by the west side highway and the brand new 7 station. Javits is another black hole. It makes a lot of sense to build a convention center closer to JFK. It might mean more infrastructure and development for the airport. Maybe in the long term it'll mean a direct connection from JFK to Manhattan.

Of course this is all fantasy, so why not hire Robert Stern to design a station over the current Penn Station? 15CPW is a palace for the 1%, why not give the 99% a palace of their own.

Yes it is a good one. All this could happen sooner then we think despite the renovation. The air rights that MSG sits on a valuable, and if the economy were ever to boom again the Dolans might get a sweet deal that would be too hard to turn down. I'm dreaming though.:jester:

Afteral, this is like the 3 or 4th renovation of this arena. I think everything depends on the economy and how much those air rights mean to developers and how well the renovation is received. I think we'll see other development around Penn first though, that would establish it as another business hub. Then the demand for MSG rights might skyrocket if more good office space is required and other areas are built out. This would probably be 15+ years away. If the renovation is seen as average or uninspiring compared to the new arena in Brooklyn, that might push redevelopment too.

If the economy hadn't collapsed, the deal might have been done. So sad.

aquablue Feb 11, 2012 8:17 PM

Another idea. How about closing a bunch of small cross streets blocks to traffic that are above concourses underground. Then you could have some kind of glass roof to open the station to the light?

KVNBKLYN Feb 13, 2012 11:46 PM

Some scope has been pulled out of Phase I, although if you read the whole article, it doesn't seem so dire.

Quote:

New Setback For Moynihan Station Plans
Project's First Phase Being Scaled Back

By TED MANN

State and federal officials wary about mounting costs plan to scale back the first segment of work for the future Moynihan Station, the latest setback for an ambitious project almost two decades in the making.

...

The board of directors of the Moynihan Station Development Corp. voted to reject the bids last week.

The lowest bid came under the projected cost but didn't include a big enough cushion for possible cost-overruns, a person familiar with the project said.

...

While Mr. Foye expressed confidence that the first wave of station improvements would go forward, the latest hiccup underscores the challenges that still lie ahead for Moynihan.

...

In the interview, Mr. Foye said officials agreed to rebid the contract, focusing on the expansion of the existing West End Concourse, nestled beneath the main steps of the Farley building. Other elements of the first phase, including improvements to the 33rd Street corridor under Eighth Avenue, two new entrances to the station across Eighth Avenue and a new passenger waiting area, will follow once costs can be lowered, Mr. Foye said.

The initial work will provide immediate benefits to commuters at Penn Station, he said. The proposed concourse improvements would roughly double the width and length of the existing concourse. And the project will extend the concourse south, to serve nine of the underlying tracks, up from the current five.
WSJ Article


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