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-   -   NEW YORK | Moynihan Station / MSG Renovation (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum//showthread.php?t=185034)

mrnyc Oct 17, 2019 3:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 8707652)
It pales in comparison to the old station, it's not a real fix for the crime that occured. Just a stop gap measure until MSG comes down in the future which should happen because MSG is vile looking. They don't even open up the platforms to the light in the new terminus which is tragic. If they had made a transparent or translucent floor you could have brought light down to the platforms, but I suppose the costs of that would have been over the top.

All in all, a half-measure that only sort of solves the problem. NY still won't have that station that will knock people's socks off like a London St. Pancras, or Berlin's main station, etc, etc,. The tracks are still dark and dingy underground without light. There is no great train shed like those of Europe and no light getting down to the tracks. Sad but True. Much of the new station is reserved for corporate offices and shops. Again, a lack of focus on the actual RAIL issue. MSG needs to gtfo so that NY can fix the whole thing properly and open up the tracks to the light.



yeah, but copper glazing! :tup::tup::tup:

chris08876 Oct 22, 2019 4:45 PM

https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/busin...f8442dbf6.jpeg
Credit: Michael Lee

chris08876 Oct 25, 2019 3:26 AM

https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/busin...c801a7af4.jpeg
Credit: Drone Fanatic

photoLith Oct 29, 2019 5:26 AM

Man, Madison Square Garden is sure one ugly ass building. Wish they would reconstruct Penn Station.

citybooster Oct 29, 2019 5:33 PM

There's not enough lipstick in the world to put on that pig(MSG)… I seriously hope they won't drop the ball and give an extension that would essentially keep it there until midcentury. The Dolans may be powerful, but there could be so much done to improve the transit/pedestrian experience by moving MSG out of there. We won't get the old Penn Station back( though some of that prestige and grandeur will be restored by the Moynihan Train Hall across the street) but we can finally try to get things right.

mrnyc Nov 1, 2019 6:20 PM

what's a shame about msg is as hideous as it is on the outside is as nice as it is inside. and the sound is just spectacular for an arena. its probably the very best big arena for concerts sound-wise.

of course that's not good enough though. tear that sh*t down. bring back light to our embarrassing rat maze basement. if paris can do it with les halles, which once was a twin of this penn station, it can be done!

NYguy Jan 7, 2020 4:55 AM

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...wye-story.html

Cuomo backs plan to acquire block south of Penn Station to increase track capacity


https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/...OJ2MIPVGT4.jpg



https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/...2C4DE2NEUM.jpg


Anna Sanders
JAN 06, 2020


Quote:

New York state would acquire the block south of Penn Station to create a new terminal and increase track capacity at the transit hub under a preexisting plan backed by Gov. Cuomo on Monday.

The state would try to purchase the properties between 30th and 31st Sts. and Seventh and Eighth Aves. to allow for the expansion of Penn Station’s underground infrastructure, according to Cuomo’s office, and use eminent domain as a last resort.

This would pave the way for at least eight new tracks on top of the 21 already in use at Penn Station, a 40% boost in capacity to serve 175,000 people daily.

“The problem with Penn Station is the functionality, the track capacity,” Cuomo said at a luncheon hosted by the Association for a Better New York, a group of business leaders.

“Sometimes there is no little fix that works and this is one of those situations,” Cuomo added. “We believe the best alternative is to expand by acquiring the block south of Penn Station and increasing the footprint that way.”
Quote:

The block south of Penn includes 22 properties. “Amtrak owns property there, the Archdiocese of New York, office, residential-use and community facilities," Cuomo said. “The state will plan to acquire it for public use. We’re already speaking to people.”

The state will also explore acquiring and converting the Theater at Madison Square Garden into a new entrance on Eighth Ave., which would also bring light into Penn Station.

The plan is part of the so-called “Empire Station Complex” that would also include the new Moynihan Train Hall, which is expected to open in the Farley Post Office on Eighth Ave. at the end of this year, along with the renovation of the current Penn Station and the expanded tracks south of Penn.

Cuomo’s office insisted the plan is not the same as “Penn South,” an expansion that has already been studied by Amtrak as part of its Gateway proposal to build two new rail tunnels under the Hudson River.

“We are pleased to see a comprehensive plan that encompasses not only the Station itself, but also the district surrounding it,” Regional Plan Association president and CEO Tom Wright said in a statement. “Adding transit capacity and prioritizing safety is critical to the success of the region and for the hundreds of thousands of people that rely on the Station regularly.”
Quote:

Cuomo’s office said that the new 125,000-square foot terminal south of Penn would have six entrances and exits that would reduce and dissipate congestion and enhance safety. The terminal would include retail development.

The governor didn’t say exactly how much the plan would cost, but said the new terminal would be paid for with revenue generated by the project.

The state will use “value capture” to fund the improvements with payments in lieu of taxes — voluntary payments made by organizations as a substitute for regular property taxes — along with income from new commercial development.

Urban planning consultants FXCollaborative have already been contracted to help carry out the plan.





https://www.newsday.com/long-island/...ins-1.40324743

Cuomo's plan for 'world-class' Penn Station adds 8 tracks to boost capacity


https://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/..._768/image.jpg


By Alfonso A. Castillo
January 6, 2020


Quote:

Cuomo said the new Empire Station Complex, resulting from combined projects, would be triple the size of the existing transit hub and provide a "world-class experience" to the 650,000 travelers who use it daily. Included in the complex would be the forthcoming Moynihan Train Hall, west of Penn, and a proposed reconstruction of the station that could entail knocking down the Hulu Theater.

The agency would then begin negotiations with the various property owners on the block bordered by 7th and 8th avenues and 31st and 30th streets. The block currently houses office and retail space, restaurants, Amtrak facilities and St. John the Baptist Roman Catholic Church.

The governor suggested new development on the block would largely finance the project's cost, including through tax incentive programs and increased income and sales tax revenues.




https://nypost.com/2020/01/06/andrew...r-part-of-msg/

Andrew Cuomo pitches Penn Station plan that includes taking over part of MSG

By David Meyer and Nolan Hicks
January 6, 2020


Quote:

Gov. Andrew Cuomo is looking to expand Midtown’s run-down Penn Station transit hub, saying Monday he’s even considering demolishing part of the Madison Square Garden complex to get it done.

“Penn Station has been another example of paralysis, and government paralysis,” Cuomo told the audience at a Manhattan luncheon for the pro-business group Association for a Better New York.

“Penn Station has been another example of paralysis, and government paralysis,” Cuomo told the audience at a Manhattan luncheon for the pro-business group Association for a Better New York.
Quote:

“Plans to reimagine Penn Station have never proceeded, and the plans have always focused” on the Garden, he added.

That’s because the complex that is home to the Knicks and Rangers sits atop the land that once held Pennsylvania Station’s magnificent sun-drenched train hall, which was destroyed to make room for the arena complex, giving birth to the preservationist movement in New York in the process.

Activists have called for years for the World’s Most Famous Arena, as MSG bills itself to be torn down or reconfigured as part of any Penn Station rebuild to restore natural lighting and to simplify the engineering of the project, demands that Cuomo resisted.

.....However, the governor’s new plan does make a slight concession and calls for the state to “explore” taking over a piece of the complex — the MSG Theater, which is now known as the Hulu Theater — to build a new a dramatic new entrance to the station on 8th Avenue.

NYguy Jan 7, 2020 6:00 AM

A little more from Cuomo's presentation...



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k1052 Jan 7, 2020 2:33 PM

I can't figure out why Cuomo decided to basically re-announce the Penn South component of Amtrak's Gateway plan and add another track. NY's love affair with enormously expensive stub terminals is totally irrational. With no new Hudson tunnel to serve it the entire plan is worse than worthless.

If you're going to spend a few billion bucks pick a NJT line or two to outfit with LIRR power and just dig a tunnel from Penn to the East Side Access so people can actually reach east midtown which is where they want to go. Through run the services on both sides of Manhattan to boost capacity.

NYguy Jan 7, 2020 3:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8792631)
I can't figure out why Cuomo decided to basically re-announce the Penn South component of Amtrak's Gateway plan and add another track. NY's love affair with enormously expensive stub terminals is totally irrational. With no new Hudson tunnel to serve it the entire plan is worse than worthless.

If you're going to spend a few billion bucks pick a NJT line or two to outfit with LIRR power and just dig a tunnel from Penn to the East Side Access so people can actually reach east midtown which is where they want to go. Through run the services on both sides of Manhattan to boost capacity.


The new tunnel component is gonna have to happen anyway, but it makes no sense to increase tunnel capacity without anywhere for the trains to go. The two plans go hand in hand, which is why the southern expansion has been on the board for years.

But I don’t understand. You do nothing, people complain. Announce plans to address the issue, they still complain. You aren’t gonna please all critics, which is why I hope Cuomo moves ahead with this plan like Moses.

k1052 Jan 7, 2020 4:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 8792658)
The new tunnel component is gonna have to happen anyway, but it makes no sense to increase tunnel capacity without anywhere for the trains to go. The two plans go hand in hand, which is why the southern expansion has been on the board for years.

Through run the commuter services and drastically cut Amtrak dwell times. Europe handles huge passenger volumes out of a few tracks and 3-4 big platforms. We can do the same. Using Penn as a terminal for anything more than a small handful of relatively infrequent Amtrak services has long been certifiably nuts.

Quote:

But I don’t understand. You do nothing, people complain. Announce plans to address the issue, they still complain. You aren’t gonna please all critics, which is why I hope Cuomo moves ahead with this plan like Moses.
The plan is objectively terrible and I thought he same thing when Amtrak announced it years ago. Now minus another Hudson tube it's even worse than super expensive and wrong headed, it's totally irresponsible.

Crawford Jan 7, 2020 4:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8792631)
I can't figure out why Cuomo decided to basically re-announce the Penn South component of Amtrak's Gateway plan and add another track.

Cuomo's announcement has nothing to do with Penn South. Totally different project.
Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8792631)
NY's love affair with enormously expensive stub terminals is totally irrational.

As opposed to what, exactly? Vastly more expensive through terminals?
Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8792631)
With no new Hudson tunnel to serve it the entire plan is worse than worthless.

Has nothing to do with the new Hudson tunnel plan (that's Penn South) and I have no idea why you think it's "less than worthless" to extend current Penn capacity. Have you been to Penn lately? You don't think it needs to be expanded?
Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8792631)
If you're going to spend a few billion bucks pick a NJT line or two to outfit with LIRR power and just dig a tunnel from Penn to the East Side Access so people can actually reach east midtown which is where they want to go. Through run the services on both sides of Manhattan to boost capacity.

Seriously? A separate NJT to GCT, below the new LIRR terminal, would be insanely expensive. Like over 100 billion, probably. You would be digging tunnels a tenth of a mile below bedrock. It would have to be at least 400 ft underground. And it would do nothing to add capacity where it's needed (on the West Side).

Clearly some people just like to argue. When Moynihan was expanded, people whined "you can't expand, there are no new tracks". Now that they're adding tracks, people are whining "you can't add new tracks, there's no tunnel". When the tunnel is added it will be back to "you can't add a new tunnel, we have to expand". NIMBY nonsense.

k1052 Jan 7, 2020 5:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8792803)
Cuomo's announcement has nothing to do with Penn South. Totally different project.

They literally occupy the same space and Amtrak is listed as a stakeholder. This is the upper level of Penn South.

https://i.imgur.com/fFU0Add.jpg

Quote:

As opposed to what, exactly? Vastly more expensive through terminals?
Penn already is mostly built like one. Just fill in some of the tracks for more platform space and address the power problem, probably though dual electric mode equipment.

Quote:

Has nothing to do with the new Hudson tunnel plan (that's Penn South) and I have no idea why you think it's "less than worthless" to extend current Penn capacity. Have you been to Penn lately? You don't think it needs to be expanded?
How are more trains going to reach an expanded terminal through tunnels that already function at capacity during peak? There are two big issues at Penn today 1) extremely inefficient use as a terminal 2) horrible vertical circulation imposed by narrow platforms, MSG, and the office bloc above. You don't need to build Penn South if you fix these instead.

Quote:

Seriously? A separate NJT to GCT, below the new LIRR terminal, would be insanely expensive. Like over 100 billion, probably. You would be digging tunnels a tenth of a mile below bedrock. It would have to be at least 400 ft underground. And it would do nothing to add capacity where it's needed (on the West Side).
No, connect Penn to the tail tracks of the East Side Access and through run NJT trains into LIRR territory and LIRR trains into NJT territory. Do not terminal in Manhattan.


Quote:

Clearly some people just like to argue. When Moynihan was expanded, people whined "you can't expand, there are no new tracks". Now that they're adding tracks, people are whining "you can't add new tracks, there's no tunnel". When the tunnel is added it will be back to "you can't add a new tunnel, we have to expand". NIMBY nonsense.
You need both components to make it work even at the exorbitant costs that it will undoubtedly run.

NYguy Jan 8, 2020 1:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8792778)
Through run the commuter services and drastically cut Amtrak dwell times. Europe handles huge passenger volumes out of a few tracks and 3-4 big platforms. We can do the same. Using Penn as a terminal for anything more than a small handful of relatively infrequent Amtrak services has long been certifiably nuts.

The plan is objectively terrible and I thought he same thing when Amtrak announced it years ago. Now minus another Hudson tube it's even worse than super expensive and wrong headed, it's totally irresponsible.

We're not talking about what goes on in Europe. Penn Station handles daily a population larger than the area's 3 major airports (Kennedy, LaGuardia, Newark) combined. It's the lifeline that draws thousands into and out of the city, and is THE best way to get cars off of our already congested Manhattan streets. But you keep talking about what Europe handles.

What's totally irresponsible is that the station has taken so long to expand, when it has been well over capacity for so long.

NYguy Jan 8, 2020 1:40 AM

Looking back at the JDS bid for the project, which pretty much covers the same themes...



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k1052 Jan 8, 2020 3:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 8793349)
We're not talking about what goes on in Europe. Penn Station handles daily a population larger than the area's 3 major airports (Kennedy, LaGuardia, Newark) combined. It's the lifeline that draws thousands into and out of the city, and is THE best way to get cars off of our already congested Manhattan streets. But you keep talking about what Europe handles.

What's totally irresponsible is that the station has taken so long to expand, when it has been well over capacity for so long.

I mean...they've got a lot of trains and busier stations then Penn some of which utilize half the tracks and platforms that NYP does.A lot of America's transit problems are in how we use things and this is a perfect example of that.

Pouring a fortune into an expanded Hudson served stub without the capability to utilize it makes zero sense even if I disagree with the cost effectiveness of the original plan. The East Side Access was essentially headed to a similar fate until the 3rd Main Track and Ronkonkoma double track projects finally moved.

hammersklavier Jan 9, 2020 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8792865)
They literally occupy the same space and Amtrak is listed as a stakeholder. This is the upper level of Penn South.

https://i.imgur.com/fFU0Add.jpg

I literally did not think this thing could get any worse from a technical standpoint than it already was.

Then you showed this. And it did.

This project is the biggest waste of money I have ever seen in my entire life. There are absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever about the proposal. Doing NOTHING AT ALL has better transportation value than this monstrosity of a project.

Busy Bee Jan 9, 2020 3:33 AM

I don't know, the LGA Airtrain is up for the same prize.

Crawford Jan 9, 2020 9:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8793698)
I mean...they've got a lot of trains and busier stations then Penn some of which utilize half the tracks and platforms that NYP does.A lot of America's transit problems are in how we use things and this is a perfect example of that.

There is no station in the western world as busy as Penn. And I can't think of any major European station with fewer tracks than Penn, even though none have similar ridership. For example, Frankfurt HBF, probably the most important station in Europe, has 30 tracks, but only 450k daily users.
Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8793698)
Pouring a fortune into an expanded Hudson served stub without the capability to utilize it makes zero sense

The capability is the tunnel. It makes total sense.
Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8793698)
even if I disagree with the cost effectiveness of the original plan. The East Side Access was essentially headed to a similar fate until the 3rd Main Track and Ronkonkoma double track projects finally moved.

ESA was always planned in concert with capacity additions to the east, just like Penn improvements are planned in concert with capacity additions to the west.

Crawford Jan 9, 2020 9:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hammersklavier (Post 8794357)
This project is the biggest waste of money I have ever seen in my entire life. There are absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever about the proposal. Doing NOTHING AT ALL has better transportation value than this monstrosity of a project.

Now I think I understand the ridiculous posts. It's satire. Just trolling for a reaction.

Yeah, there is absolutely no value to spending a penny on public transit in the most transit-dependent location in North America, underneath the largest and most productive business district on the planet, in a region encompassing 10% of the U.S. economy. The money should be flushed down the toilet in foreign adventures rather than giving people prosperity and mobility in the U.S.


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