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-   -   NEW YORK | Moynihan Station / MSG Renovation (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum//showthread.php?t=185034)

yankeesfan1000 May 30, 2013 4:00 AM

God almighty the inside of the Shop design is incredible. It's easy to get carried away with pretty renderings, but assuming this does happen, expanding capacity needs to be priority #1, and aesthetics priority #2. The city does have several million square feet of air rights from the site to sell if I'm not mistaken.

eleven=11 May 30, 2013 8:33 AM

what about the current renovation plans at Moynihan Station ?
is there a update ?

NYC2ATX May 30, 2013 5:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaze23 (Post 6145588)
http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...nInterior1.jpg
↑ Let's move Madison Square Garden a few blocks southwest to the Morgan postal facility, says SHoP Architects. Let's also get rid of 2 Penn Plaza and redevelop a tower nearby, as well as rezone and build offices in a swath of Midtown south of the station, to make up for the space that would be cleared to make way for their glass-facaded design. Their Penn Station is an "urban bowl," with two parks, a more airy concourse, wider sidewalks and plazas around the three-block site, and a garden towards the top.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000 (Post 6146360)
God almighty the inside of the Shop design is incredible. It's easy to get carried away with pretty renderings, but assuming this does happen, expanding capacity needs to be priority #1, and aesthetics priority #2. The city does have several million square feet of air rights from the site to sell if I'm not mistaken.

I think SHoP is quickly becoming one of my favorite architectural firms currently working. Everything they've built/proposed recently (Pier 15 and the Pier 17 remodel, Barclays Center, Atlantic Yards towers, Hunter's Point towers, New Domino, and now this Penn renov) has been phenomenal. I feel their unique, inventive style has the potential to have a great influence over the architecture of New York in this century, and I LOVE IT. :cheers:

Edit: I'm examining their website and just saw that they're also the ones behind FIT's new building on 27th street (still a proposal I believe?) and how could I forget the new outlet mall in my very own Staten Island...I can't deal with all this awesomeness. :haha:

Crawford May 31, 2013 12:20 AM

I think I like the SHOP proposal the best for the station itself, but the SOM proposal for the surrounding towers and urban layout.

All three proposals are interesting ideas, though.

NYC GUY May 31, 2013 12:44 AM

Although the SHoP proposal looks the most realistic. That SOM one looks badass!!

hunser May 31, 2013 4:51 PM

Small steps ... in the right direction. Even if those projects are just visions for now, it clearly shows that New York is not afraid to build tall any longer. I think they city has finally put the painful last decade behind.

ardecila May 31, 2013 9:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StatenIslander237 (Post 6146940)
I think SHoP is quickly becoming one of my favorite architectural firms currently working.

SHoP is very well-connected in the development industry as well - they're worked with ULI and so forth to try and shift development paradigms. They're very politically and economically savvy, and their expertise goes well beyond architecture.

NYguy Jun 19, 2013 11:11 PM

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TATE/130619849

In surprise, Quinn backs mere 10-year extension for Garden
Move by the City Council Speaker came as MSG assembled an all-star cast at a City Council meeting
to oppose a City Planning push for a 15-year extension of the permit MSG wants renewed in perpetuity.



http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pb...creen&maxh=360


By Matt Chaban
June 19, 2013

Quote:

Council Speaker Christine Quinn stole the show en absentia on Wednesday at a City Council hearing on whether to grant Madison Square Garden a new, permanent special permit to continue to operate in the heart of midtown. Just before the hearing concluded around 2 p.m., Ms. Quinn, issued a statement throwing her support behind a 10-year permit for the arena, at which point it is hoped the Garden would be well on its way to relocating nearby. She also called for the creation of a "Commission for a 21st Century Penn Station" to remake the cramped transit hub that lies increasingly uncomfortably in the Garden’s basement.

She said the purpose of the group would be two-fold. First, to find a new Manhattan home for Madison Square Garden and, second, to create a Penn Station "which more appropriately suits the needs of the hundreds of thousands of travelers who pass through it every day and can accommodate its expected growth in the future."


Ms. Quinn’s opinion is critical. Not only does the speaker hold sway over most land-use decisions, but the Garden is located in her council district, which gives her opinion additional weight. Ms. Quinn, who hopes to succeed Mayor Michael Bloomberg at City Hall, had spent the morning campaigning in Harlem and Queens.

Meanwhile, downtown, Madison Square Garden had assembled an all-star cast at the council meeting, including director Spike Lee, Knicks hall of famer Walt Frazier, construction and theatrical unions and the pro-business Partnership for New York City to persuade it to roll back a 15-year term limit placed on the arena by the City Planning Commission. The city aims to use the limit to foster long-term planning for moving the Garden and rebuilding Penn Station, which has been trapped underneath for half a century.

In the end, Ms. Quinn went one step further, cutting five years off that time limit. In the spirit of prize fights at the Garden, Ms. Quinn's colleagues did not pull their punches in questioning arena officials or their critics.

At the hearing, other council members were also critical of the Garden’s efforts.

“I really don’t think a timeline hampers the operations of the Garden,” zoning subcommittee chair Mark Weprin countered. “You’ve had this special permit for 50 years, and even as it expired now, it hasn’t discouraged people from coming to the Garden.”

Leroy Comrie, the deputy majority leader and chair of the land-use committee, insisted that the needs of the arena had to be weighed against those of the transit hub—the nation’s busiest.

"Penn Station is a critical part of the city," he said. "Some checks and balances on perpetuity is key because Penn Station is so critical."

Other council members were just as critical of those seeking to move the arena. Staten Island Councilman Vincent Ignizio said the economic value of the Garden was too big to risk threatening the Garden and possibly having it leave the city. "What about the $200 million in spending the arena brings to the city each year?" he asked.

The opinions were equally split from the audience. “By approving a 10-year permit with no loophole, the council will send a clear message that the continued location of the Garden over Penn Station should not be permanent,” said Regional Plan Association President Bob Yaro. He likely had no way of knowing this was almost exactly what Ms. Quinn would support a few hours after he spoke.

Mr. Lee, a life-long Knicks fan well-known for antics from his court-side seats, said it was tantamount to New York treason to suggest the Garden be moved—this despite the fact he opened his remarks by saying he fondly remembers going to games as a kid at the old Madison Square Garden on 50th Street. “They own the land, and you’re talking about making them move? Where they gonna go?” Mr. Lee said. He suggested Penn Station should relocate if people did not like where it was.

Absurd, Spike Lee.

Submariner Jun 20, 2013 1:52 AM

I like how he thinks it's easy to move all of those underground rail lines...

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 6170486)
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TATE/130619849

In surprise, Quinn backs mere 10-year extension for Garden
Move by the City Council Speaker came as MSG assembled an all-star cast at a City Council meeting
to oppose a City Planning push for a 15-year extension of the permit MSG wants renewed in perpetuity.



http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pb...creen&maxh=360


By Matt Chaban
June 19, 2013




Absurd, Spike Lee.


Busy Bee Jun 20, 2013 2:19 AM

Yeah I just lost a bit of respect for the guy. As astute as he is on Tyler Perry and the sad state of black cinema, this comment and lack of understanding of the magnitude of Penn's importance just makes him sound like an idiot.

ardecila Jun 20, 2013 2:30 AM

In fairness, I don't think the public really understands the relative cost and difficulty of moving the arena vs. moving the station and approach tunnels.

I'm glad Quinn sees the need for some major urban planning shifts at Penn, but the Knicks/Rangers are beloved institutions that enjoy broad public support, so educating the public on these matters is crucial. The MSG renovation doesn't help things; most fans who attend a game see a modern, comfortable arena with good amenities that is in a convenient location for transit. They don't see an urban planning disaster.

NYguy Jun 20, 2013 5:45 AM

^ But far more people use Penn Station than attend events at MSG (Im not even talking about out of state). I think many people, if they could, would see MSG taken out of Manhattan altogether. With the success of stadiums and arenas outside of Manhattan, they don' t see why it needs to be. And as much business as it brings to the city, you cannot argue it brings more than Penn Station. I can't imagine the city without. As for MSG, we already know the name travels.

easy as pie Jun 20, 2013 6:14 AM

wow! great! hopefully quinn gets her way and msg starts looking for another spot, some pier along the western waterfront? javits? hell's kitchen? there are loads of sites where it could go, even within a few blocks of the existing arena. great news!

JACKinBeantown Jun 21, 2013 4:39 AM

I agree that Penn Station is far more important than MSG, but engineering possibilities make it easy enough to make a fantastic Penn Station with a new Garden on top. Think "MSG on top of the Astrodome" as far as the necessary engineering goes. It's going to cost gobs of money in any case, so why not really satisfy every need?

k1052 Jun 21, 2013 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown (Post 6172349)
I agree that Penn Station is far more important than MSG, but engineering possibilities make it easy enough to make a fantastic Penn Station with a new Garden on top. Think "MSG on top of the Astrodome" as far as the necessary engineering goes. It's going to cost gobs of money in any case, so why not really satisfy every need?

There is no good reason why MSG has to sit directly over Penn when it would be just fine a block away in the Farley Annex. Even with a plan in place it would take several years to demo MSG, demo all of Penn above platform level, relocate platforms and tracks, then rebuild the station. MSG can't afford to be homeless for the time this would take.

Also having MSG directly overhead would just turn it into another dark hole in the ground, something that if billions are to be spent should be carefully avoided.

steve1young Jun 21, 2013 5:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 6172597)
There is no good reason why MSG has to sit directly over Penn when it would be just fine a block away in the Farley Annex. Even with a plan in place it would take several years to demo MSG, demo all of Penn above platform level, relocate platforms and tracks, then rebuild the station. MSG can't afford to be homeless for the time this would take.

Also having MSG directly overhead would just turn it into another dark hole in the ground, something that if billions are to be spent should be carefully avoided.

Very well put. Thank you.

JACKinBeantown Jun 22, 2013 2:40 PM

Very well put, but (with all respect) not very well thought out. Look at the original setting of Grand Central. It has a roof covering the whole thing with windows on the top sides. Before it was surrounded by taller buildings, amazing shards of light came shining in and illuminated the place with an ethereal quality. That was 100 years ago. You don't think an architect with a sense of imagination and design could come up with a design using today's technology that could hold a MSG on top of a Penn Station and meet all those demands while creating something great? I bet Santiago Calatrava could do it... or many other architects who are creating masterpieces around the world.

The fact that MSG is shaped like a cone on the inside (basketball court surrounded by rows of seats) would allow for an angled ceiling below, thus allowing plenty of light to reach the new Penn Station. That's just one thought.

JMGarcia Jun 22, 2013 10:26 PM

If a new MSG is built the current MSG will need to stay open during the contruction. I cannot see how that could possibly happen if it stays on it's existing site between 7th and 8th. It needs to be moved if anything major is going to be done about Penn.

k1052 Jun 22, 2013 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown (Post 6173970)
Very well put, but (with all respect) not very well thought out. Look at the original setting of Grand Central. It has a roof covering the whole thing with windows on the top sides. Before it was surrounded by taller buildings, amazing shards of light came shining in and illuminated the place with an ethereal quality. That was 100 years ago. You don't think an architect with a sense of imagination and design could come up with a design using today's technology that could hold a MSG on top of a Penn Station and meet all those demands while creating something great? I bet Santiago Calatrava could do it... or many other architects who are creating masterpieces around the world.

The fact that MSG is shaped like a cone on the inside (basketball court surrounded by rows of seats) would allow for an angled ceiling below, thus allowing plenty of light to reach the new Penn Station. That's just one thought.

While less natural light gets into GCT these days the overall design/architecture mitigates that a lot. It's not like you're going to confuse it for Penn when getting off a train. There is no compelling reason for MSG to exist above Penn instead of in the Farley Annex, which if they don't want any gap in operations will have to be built out while the current MSG is still open.

For the love of all that's holy keep Calatrava as far from any Penn station project as humanly possible. You want him to design a landmark transportation center with a 20K seat sports arena on top after the WTC hub? I'd rather not see an extra few billion spent on his ego doing a project with better alternatives in hand.

JACKinBeantown Jun 23, 2013 12:36 AM

My point is simply that it can be done. The only reason it wouldn't be able to be done would be if everyone involved said it couldn't be done. Then of course it wouldn't be done. But we all know it could. And I only used Calatrava as an example... I'm pretty sure that was clear. :cheers:

My personal opinion is probably the same as anyone else's on this forum: the old Penn Station was gorgeous and the "new" one sucks. MSG houses millionaire athletes getting paid to play games. The transportation of millions of working people is much more important than a ball game. But they need a place to play while their new arena is built (whenever that happens) and building a new Penn Station that's planned for distant future traffic and a beautiful aesthetic is paramount.


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