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-   -   NEW YORK | Moynihan Station / MSG Renovation (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum//showthread.php?t=185034)

sbarn Feb 7, 2013 2:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigGeo08 (Post 6004956)
TBH Grand Central doesn't work really well. The main hall is impressive but the waiting rooms and platforms are dark and dingy. With the 30th street station, you board trains from the main hall instead of a waiting area in the catacombs. That's what makes the 30th street station unique and exemplary.

Doesn't work well? You must be joking. Grand Central serves over 60 million passengers a year, 30th Street Station serves 4.5 million. With the completion of the East Side Access project that will increase dramatically.

k1052 Feb 7, 2013 2:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigGeo08 (Post 6004956)
TBH Grand Central doesn't work really well. The main hall is impressive but the waiting rooms and platforms are dark and dingy. With the 30th street station, you board trains from the main hall instead of a waiting area in the catacombs. That's what makes the 30th street station unique and exemplary.

The platforms are darker than 30th St because they are underground.

Anyone who calls GCT dingy needs to get their prescription checked and the station handles an order of magnate more passengers than 30th with relative ease.

aquablue Feb 7, 2013 7:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 6004994)



Related should have concentrated on swapping with MSG, since it's already there, rebuild Penn Station along with some new commercial space....

http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/107968182/original.jpg

I agree but MSG was never moving because of the Dolans. It won't be now either with the renovation for a long time. No way the Dolans will easily give up their super convenient location right above Penn for a less convenient one without major incentives.

Regarding the plan to put the college in the annex, I disagree with that. That would rule out any future move of MSG and rebuilding of the current station after the renovation has lost its luster. Farley itself doesn't excite me after seeing some of the most recent renderings. It is hardly the super impressive station that a rebuilt Penn could be. The recent renderings were quite unimpressive IMO.

aquablue Feb 7, 2013 8:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 6005147)
The platforms are darker than 30th St because they are underground.

Anyone who calls GCT dingy needs to get their prescription checked and the station handles an order of magnate more passengers than 30th with relative ease.

30th street station can't hold a candle to the ornate headhouse/train sheds of the grand European stations.

I wish GCT had a train shed, but NYC is just too dense and land is too scarce for that.

Penn station was a crime, but it is even more so today that they won't rebuild it and move MSG (blame the Dolans). Farley will never be a replacement for Penn, especially since it won't be taking over the entire building. The recent renderings showed an unimpressive and rather small atrium design.

sbarn Feb 7, 2013 8:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6005654)
30th street station can't hold a candle to the ornate headhouse/train sheds of the grand European stations.

Agreed. I was just in Italy and blown away by Milano Centrale.

k1052 Feb 7, 2013 9:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6005654)
30th street station can't hold a candle to the ornate headhouse/train sheds of the grand European stations.

I wish GCT had a train shed, but NYC is just too dense and land is too scarce for that.

Penn station was a crime, but it is even more so today that they won't rebuild it and move MSG (blame the Dolans). Farley will never be a replacement for Penn, especially since it won't be taking over the entire building. The recent renderings showed an unimpressive and rather small atrium design.

Maybe swap can be done in the future since Javits will eventually have to go. The space for a grand hall at Farley is limited by the building and landmark requirement for new elements ( the glass canopy) not to be viewable from street level. Regardless it will be many more years before MSG can be moved so investing in Moynihan and interim improvements to Penn is the only realistic option right now.

aquablue Feb 7, 2013 9:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbarn (Post 6005713)
Agreed. I was just in Italy and blown away by Milano Centrale.

Agreed, that is a beauty.

DURKEY427 Feb 7, 2013 11:29 PM

Are they demolishing madison square garden?

THE BIG APPLE Feb 8, 2013 12:01 AM

^ They could but won't happen anytime soon. It's just had a major renovation. Plus I expect MSG to be gone in 15-30 years time, considering the urge of development that will surge after the Hudson Yards take full fruition.

NYguy Feb 8, 2013 1:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6005646)
I agree but MSG was never moving because of the Dolans. It won't be now either with the renovation for a long time. No way the Dolans will easily give up their super convenient location right above Penn for a less convenient one without major incentives.

That's why I said Related should have spent that time trying to sway them. I think they had a better shot than with trying to get BMCC to move. Dolan decided to move ahead with renovation in part because Related and Vornado weren't getting anwhere with the Penn Station plans. And while the current MSG renovation looks ok, that's only from the inside - its still the mess it always has been from the outside. But maybe that is the one good sign, no really significant alterations to the outside because Dolan sees a way out in the future. We could only hope.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/env_...cp053m_eas.pdf

Crawford Feb 8, 2013 1:52 AM

The Garden will probably be demolished within 10-15 years. The Dolans are only renovating the interiors; something they do every 15 years or so anyways.

MSG sits on 6 million square feet of development rights, with no height limits. The land is worth far more than the arena itself, so they will eventually sell. They just need to find a new location.

They also need to hope that the new mayor doesn't take the arena by eminent domain. There have been rumblings of this.

THE BIG APPLE Feb 8, 2013 2:20 AM

^ The supertall plans have been floating around for MORE than a decade now, and I know that has to do with the Dolans, but who's to say 15 years doesn't become 25 years. Remember MSG has been critically HATED since its inception in 1964. It has sustained the wrecking ball for 49 years.

aquablue Feb 12, 2013 1:15 AM

http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2013...foot-led-signs

Looks like they want to pretty up MSG with signs.

The article says they want to spend 1 billion dollars on the exterior elements and public experience outside the arena.

It appears to me that they are attempting to put lipstick on a pig.

NYguy Feb 12, 2013 2:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6010977)
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2013...foot-led-signs

Looks like they want to pretty up MSG with signs.

Yeah, you can see some of the images in the pdf above.



http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/02/...mmunity-board/

MSG’s push to stay put concerns community board

February 12, 2013

Quote:

Madison Square Garden’s special permit to operate as an arena expired in January, and a move by the arena to secure a long-term renewal has evoked mixed reactions in the community, DNAinfo reported.

50 years ago, the City Planning Commission issued MSG a special permit which allows it to seat 2,500 people, according to a planning document viewed by DNAinfo. But since Jan. 24, the arena has been relying on a Temporary Certificate of Occupancy, which is set to run out in April.

In an effort to secure a permanent permit, MSG appeared before Community Board 5′s land use committee last week, but the committee said that the arena has no business sitting atop Penn station, which slows down improvements to the city’s most important train station. They added that it would consider a 10-year lease which would give the community a chance to weigh in again in the future.

“The 10-year renewal is an attempt to create a planning period to figure out another location for the Garden,” Raju Mann, acting chairman of CB5′s land use committee, told DNAinfo. “The reason we would like MSG to relocate is because the Garden sits atop Penn Station, which is North America’s most important train station, but is unfortunately woefully over capacity.”

MSG is currently going through the city’s ULURP process to renew its special permit, having also recently sought permission to waive existing rules and install four 77-foot LED display panels on the stadium’s exterior, in a fashion akin to Times Square.

But a spokeswoman for MSG told DNAinfo that there weren’t any grounds to put a time limit on one of the city’s most iconic venues. “They don’t understand why the special permit expires,” Wagner said of MSG. “For an ongoing business, it just doesn’t make sense.”

sbarn Feb 12, 2013 4:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 6011465)
Yeah, you can see some of the images in the pdf above.



http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/02/...mmunity-board/

MSG’s push to stay put concerns community board

February 12, 2013

Wow, this may be one of the few times I agree with a Community Board.

yankeesfan1000 Feb 12, 2013 5:30 PM

Agreed. Hopefully MSG only gets the temporary permit, and is forced to move sooner rather than later.

Busy Bee Feb 12, 2013 5:56 PM

Quote:

“They don’t understand why the special permit expires,” Wagner said of MSG. “For an ongoing business, it just doesn’t make sense.”
Just like pumping half a billion dollars into an arena that will inevitably be torn down doesn't make sense?. Oh wait, sure it does... its called padding the value of the building to blackmail the eventual buyers to pay way for for the structure than what its really worth. Shrewd gentlemen.

Crawford Feb 12, 2013 5:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6010977)
.

The article says they want to spend 1 billion dollars on the exterior elements and public experience outside the arena.

It appears to me that they are attempting to put lipstick on a pig.

The entire renovation costs nearly $1 billion. They aren't really doing anything to the exterior except for some new signs and entrances.

And, yeah, this is lipstick on a pig. They need to sell to Related/Vornado so this redevelopment can get going.

scalziand Feb 12, 2013 7:20 PM

Crazy idea time.

Vornado owns 2 Penn Plaza and the Hotel Pennsylvania. Demo 2 Penn (nobodies going to miss it, unlike the Hotel Penn), and dump the airights from the hotel, existing 2 Penn site, and MSG onto the 2 Penn site. I'm talking a single landmark tower with 6-8 msf of space. Easily 100+floors, maybe even 200fl. Potential WTB territory.

Preservationists get to keep the Hotel Penn, the Dolans get to keep the MSG, the city gets a new WTB.:superwhip

Eidolon Feb 12, 2013 8:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scalziand (Post 6011882)
Preservationists get to keep the Hotel Penn, the Dolans get to keep the MSG, the city gets a new WTB.:superwhip

The problem with the current incarnation of MSG is that it:

1. Brings huge crowds of people to an already overcrowded Penn Station.
2. Is holy-fuck-tier ugly.
3. Makes even the smallest upgrades to the Penn Station prohibitively costly.

To fix Penn Station (and in this case I'm only talking about making it a tolerable space, not restoring it to it's pre-violation glory days) the Garden absolutely has to go somewhere -almost anywhere- else, ASAP. In my opinion, the best location for the next MSG would be somewhere in the Far-West of Manhattan, such as a part of the Javits plot that will become available when the convention center inevitably goes, built on landfill in the Hudson River, or if a benevolent diety is on our side, maybe the future MSG could even replace the absolutely horrible PA Bus Terminal. :yes:


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