The only option is A. Madison Square Garden is not going to move away from all of that transit, and the City wouldn't want it that way.

And yes, the plan was to build towers taller than the ESB, they would have enough development rights.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...garden_to.html

Madison Square Garden should move to make way for roomier N.Y. Penn Station, planners say

By Mike Frassinelli
April 28, 2013

didn't they just spend $200-$300 million to
fix up the garden????

man, fingers crossed, fingers crossed.

They should build a new Garden on top of the Port Authority bus terminal. There's room there. Incorporate whatever building they want there into it. Hell, King Kong's giant turd on top of the Port Authority would be an improvement architecturally.

Plain and simple, I see no way they will be building a NEW Madison Square Garden anytime soon. For those who are not New Yorkers or sports fans and have not been there yet this season, the "new" Garden is a nothing short of a new building inside of the existing shell and is even titled on all the Phase I-III drawings as "Garden V". I have worked on numerous renovations as well as new projects from the ground up....the work done at the Garden was nowhere near a simple renovation.

This was what it looked like inside back in June during the upper bowl demo - notice that the entire upper bowl was missing:

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6558/imag1796r.jpg

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9232/imag17811.jpg

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8625/imag17831.jpg

And here was what it looked like in early October nearing completion:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/288/20121017192535.jpg

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/2...1017191539.jpg

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6...1017192022.jpg

The first two phases of the project have totaled next to $700 million already (the demo and replacement of the entire lower seating bowl and lower concourse in Phase I and a completely reconfigured upper seating bowl and concourse during Phase II), with one phase remaining this summer. IMO, there is entirely too much power and political connection reaching out from Cablevision and MSG Holdings to even think there is a remote possibility that the Garden is going to move. This is the same entity that successfully spearheaded a movement to stop the West Side Stadium from being built in 2005, thus slamming the door on NYC's 2012 Olympic hopes.

Yes, as a diehard Rangers and Knicks fan, I would have loved a brand new arena and just like the rest of you, would have been in favor of the space being used for alternate reasons. However, I have been to the new Garden multiple times this year and appreciate the fact that they were able to basically give me a new venue to go to while still keeping the history in place. Given the connections and power of the Dolan family, Cablevision, and the Garden, I find it next to impossible to believe that they would have embarked on such a massive project without being assured that it would not all be for naught.

What was the reason for building MSG right on top of Penn in the first place? I understand that transport is important, but didn't anyone realize just how difficult it would make future expansion for the station?

Seems to me if i was a Dolan and I knew the moving of MSG and a new Penn was inevitable, I think I'd be padding the value of MSG with a "much needed" renovation too. That way when it comes time to strike a deal to move it means potentially close to a billion more tax funded greenbacks in their pockets. Horrible citizens, great businessmen.

They were on board with moving also, not even that far back. Remember the talks to move the Garden into the back of Farley Building? Dolan had a few issues because he wanted MSG advertising on all sides of the building, but once the redevelopment plan got bogged down between the delopers and public officials, Dolan knew they had to do something with the current arena, especially after fighting "threats" like the planned Jets west side stadium, and the arrival of Barclays Center.

But unfortunately for Dolan, the momentum has shifted to removal of the Garden from Penn Station, which is a more valuable asset to the City. Farley remains the best option for MSG, but there aren't many. A typical threat, like moving the arena to Jersey wouldn't work for him. The Garden must be in the City, and it must be in Manhattan. But this is the 4th Garden (they can call it 5, if they like) and this is not the historic location for it.

I wasn't around to see it get built, but with any luck, I'll be around to see this in reverse...


http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/86828806/original.jpg



http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/86828816/original.jpg



A Farley Garden...

http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/86828840/original.jpg



http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/93450455/original.jpg

Well Madison Square Garden was proposed to have been destroyed and replaced with this years ago, but it didn't happen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison..._Garden_Towers

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TATE/130509913

City proposes limiting Garden to 15 more years
Limit falls hugely short of owner's insistence that the special permit for "the World's Most Famous Arena" be renewed in "perpetuity."
Backers of limit seek way to redevelop site and give Penn Station room to grow.

By Matt Chaban
May 7, 2013

:previous:

"The world's most famous arena"? :haha: Really, more famous than the Colosseum even?

Move Javits to Queens by 2023, build new MSG on part of Javits site by 2028. Then Penn Station can finally start expanding and opening up more. Maybe in 30 years it will be a grand station once again.

I like the idea of MSG moving to the north end of the Javits site. Close to ferry terminal and bus terminal. Close to new 7 train stops. Kind of a long walk from Penn Station however, but maybe there could be some kind of shuttle system.

So, we can expect a new Penn Station in 20-25 years?

I get the complexity of the issue, but that's unbelievable. Penn Station is a disaster and with train ridership increasing year over year, it's going to be over capacity far before they start building a new one.

^ It's already way over capacity. I like the CPC's suggestion though, 15 sounds good to me.

They kicked people out of their homes to build the arena in Brooklyn. They claimed right of eminent domain (for private business in that case, ahem...). Well, this is a real case of eminent domain. The city needs a workable transit hub much more than it needs a basketball arena.. Oh wait, it doesn't need a basketball arena. The Knicks and Rangers are private businesses that only serve those who can afford to buy a ticket to see a bunch of millionaires play games. Penn Station serves literally millions who work in the city, visit from other places, and rely on a working mass transit system to help the overall economy of the city and the region.

Move Penn Station.

The thing is that back then transportaion was downsizing. The original Penn Station belonged to Pennsylvania Railroad, a private company, and Amtrak didn't exist yet. The company was near to bankrupcy, the cost of maintain the station was high and with railroad traffic plummeting, the station wasn't longer economically sustainable. They decided to make a smaller station and sell or lease air rights to more proffitable uses.

Grand Central Terminal was about to have a similar fate. The New York Central Railroad, owner of GCT, first build the PanAm Building (now Met-Life) that didn't affected the station and permited to buy some time for it. Anyway, they indeed wanted to demolish the station and some plans were made, nevertheless, given the opposition and mourn that drove the demolition of Penn Station some years earlier, made that the City declared GCT a landmark, saving it.

And that phenomenon is not unique for New York, all over the US, many grand, old train station have been either demolished or abandoned, sometimes being replaced by stations that looks just like a joke, such as the case of Cleveland, Buffalo or Detroit.

In other cases after years of abandonment, and threats of demolition, the grand stations were bring back to the former glory. That's the case of the magnificent Cincinnati Union Terminal, today mainly used as a museum center, housing various institutions like History, Natural History & Science and Children Museums. After two decades without passenger service, in 1991 it was restored, although with a very few weekly services.

The Grand Hall of The Cincinnati Union Terminal

http://imageshack.us/a/img845/6450/8...useummural.jpg


The current Buffalo Station
http://imageshack.us/a/img692/1062/8...epewstatio.jpg


Current Cleveland Station
http://imageshack.us/a/img208/134/80...landamtrak.jpg


Current Detroit Station
http://imageshack.us/a/img209/235/de...knewcenter.jpg

Hate to break it to you, but the Knicks and the Rangers have nothing to do with the reason MSG doesn't want to move. And seeing as Eminent Domain plays no factor here, I don't even see why it came up.

Regardless of the outcome, the Knicks and the Rangers are going to get another stadium somewhere in the area, possibly this time on an even larger plot of "unused" land with air rights from here to Beijing. Penn Station really got the short end of the stick, when the Dolans decided to plop an oversized toilet bowl over one of the largest transit hubs in the country, so their really isn't an argument, and I don't see why they're putting up a fight to want to stay because the Garden is "famous."

Hell, the Yankees built a carbon copy, new millennium edition of their stadium from the ground up, directly across the street from the original, and without hesitation, people still call it Yankee Stadium, so I see no reason why the Dolans are being so persistent over a lost cause.

City Gives Madison Square Garden Just 15 More Years, But With A Huge Loophole Intact
 

capitalnewyork.com
By Dana Rubinstein
1:08 pm May. 22, 2013

The City Planning Commission today approved a Bloomberg administration proposal to allow Madison Square Garden to operate atop Penn Station for just 15 more years.

The idea, one championed by urban planning organizations, is to pressure Madison Square Garden to move elsewhere, so that the railroads can finally turn the dismal, labyrinthine Penn Station into an urban transit hub befitting a great world city.

"It is over one of the big mass transit centers in the city," said Mayor Michael Bloomberg today, following a press conference in East Harlem about New York City's new Major League Soccer team. "And for the city to have the flexibility down the road of doing something, I think that's important. And I think giving them 15 years, it isn't like tomorrow. ... It's a lifetime."

Madison Square Garden's 50-year operating permit is expiring, and not unexpectedly, the company wanted it renewed in perpetuity.

They didn't win that battle, but they did win a major loophole.

As Capital first reported on Monday, if, during the Garden's new 15-year permit, it is able to reach a deal with the three railroads that operate beneath it to make improvements to the station, like adding escalators and elevators, and the city's planning commissioner approves that agreement, then the Garden will get a permit to operate atop Penn Station forever.

When I asked Bloomberg earlier today why that exception was needed, the mayor, perhaps not understanding the question, responded rather vaguely: "Because you're right above this mass transit location and if you needed to do something for the greater good of the city, leaving the city in the position of being able to do something down the road. Doesn't mean they're gonna do it. But we would be derelict in our duty, I think, to take that away."

Much more of the story can be found here.

Hmm... I guess it all depends on what's acceptable to the planning commissioner then. Currently Amanda Burden is in favor of a radical reconstruction of Penn, but when Bloomberg leaves office the next guy (or gal, if it's Quinn) will bring in a new commissioner who might not care as much.

Very interesting proposals for Penn Station, LOVE the SOM proposal.

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2013/0...ealed.php#more

http://ny.curbed.com/uploads/LeadImageSOM.jpg

Last month the Municipal Art Society invited four high-profile architecture firms—SHoP Architects, SOM, H3 Hardy Collaboration Architecture, and Diller Scofidio + Renfro—to come up with ambitious plans for a new Penn Station. The timing was intentional, and apt: Madison Square Garden's permit to operate is expiring, and there a contentious battle has been raging over how long it should be renewed. Those advocating for a new Penn want the Garden's permit to be limited to 10 years, giving the city time to prepare the machinations necessary to relocate the arena, essentially clearing space for the kind of massive, starchitect-designed, innovatively structured transit hubs that the four firms have proposed. Madison Square Garden, however, won't be so easily moved, and the City Planning Commission is currently recommending a 15-year permit with a loophole that would allow the Garden to remain in its spot in perpetuity should it agree to compromise with the trains lines that run below on improvements. But many, including Times archicritic Michael Kimmelman, are holding out hope that the City Council and its speaker Christine Quinn will see the benefit to limiting MSG's operations in order to build a statement-making station, like the ones designed for the challenge.

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...nInterior1.jpg
↑ Let's move Madison Square Garden a few blocks southwest to the Morgan postal facility, says SHoP Architects. Let's also get rid of 2 Penn Plaza and redevelop a tower nearby, as well as rezone and build offices in a swath of Midtown south of the station, to make up for the space that would be cleared to make way for their glass-facaded design. Their Penn Station is an "urban bowl," with two parks, a more airy concourse, wider sidewalks and plazas around the three-block site, and a garden towards the top.

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...4/SideView.jpg

↑ The proposal by Skidmore, Owings & Merrill (SOM) incorporates glass walls and skylights so that even "from the tracks you know where you are." They aim to move MSG to a spot just south of the Farley Building, on Eighth Avenue between 30th and 31st streets. Above the station would be a mixed-use complex, with residential space, parks including a skyline garden, offices, and places for cultural/leisure activities.

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...Train_Hall.jpg

↑ H3 Hardy Collaboration Architecture's plan involves relocating Madison Square Garden to a built-out pier along the Hudson River to the west of the Javits Center, and connecting it to the rest of the city via an elevated walkway for pedestrians and cyclists called the water line. With the freed up land, they would upzone plots all along Seventh Avenue to make way for tall office towers, four of which would occupy the four corners of the Penn Station site. A three-acre roof garden would sit on top of the station, while all of the train lines would use the multi-layered structure whose centerpiece would be an airy 120-foot-high main hall with skylights. Meanwhile, the Farley Post Office would be used as an education center.

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...eet%20View.jpg

↑ Meanwhile, Diller Scofidio + Renfro took a more philosophical approach, making much of the idea that a new Penn could be "a city within a city" and combining multiple uses into one multi-layered, porous space that would look like "a large sponge-like mass, aerated from every angle." With MSG moved to behind the Farley building on Ninth Avenue, there's room for a variety of spaces, from a spa to a micro theater to a cascading park. Also imagined are a pool, restaurants, and many surfaces on which to project advertisements. Inside the station, they envision drifting food vendors carrying their wares around their waist (like at a baseball stadium), train arrival and departure times projected onto the floor, and real-time video footage of trains approaching and leaving the station aired onto a large screen. Meanwhile, seizing upon the multifunctionality of the space, travelers will be able to use their mobile phones to see how much time they have until their train, and just how many activities (shopping, dining, leisure) are within their reach while they are killing time, something the firm called "the architecture of waiting."

After all the presentations, Madison Square Garden issued the following (rather biting) statement:

It's curious to see that there are so many ideas on how to tear down a privately owned building that is a thriving New York icon, supports thousands of jobs and is currently completing a $1 billion transformation. These pie-in-the-sky drawings completely ignore the fact that no viable plans or funding to rebuild Penn Station and relocate MSG actually exist. Not that long ago, MSG spent millions of dollars and three years exploring a move to the Farley building as part of the new vision for Moynihan Station. That plan collapsed for a number of reasons that did not involve MSG, but did involve many of the same people now pressuring MSG to move, including The Municipal Art Society, which created enormous obstacles to achieving the relocation. The restoration of Moynihan Station has been a 20-year discussion that has led to very little progress or funding. The fact that this exercise does not include anyone who actually has detailed knowledge of this issue or understands the realities of this complex project exposes this exercise for exactly what it is.

^^^

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...ict_Aerial.jpg

Even though it isn't likely to see the light of day, I wonder how tall that tower is? It must be at least 700M tall and if the version of 15 Penn displayed there is still 371M, this building is easily taller. A megatall here would be amazing!

:notacrook:

Never would they even propose something so ridiculous. The FAA would be on that like a bee indoors. NEVER.

Something that tall could be built, but these are just ideas. That looks to be the site of the potential Penn East development, itself around 1,000 ft. Interestingly, the 2 Penn plaza site was being considered for an unlimited FAR during the hudson yards rezoning, but the city council killed that.

Two of the architectural proposals are for 2,000 ft. towers.

And one of the proposals is for 29 million square feet of redevelopment. Holy crap.

I dunno, I might sound a little bit snobbish for saying this. But in my opinion I don't believe that a modern building would really heal the wounds on the MSG site. Sure we got that concrete bowl and box out of the way and have a respectable station instead of some creepy dungeon.

I don't think modern style buildings are the way to go, but that's just me.

I like how the SHoP proposal is illustrating the density that might very well be a reality 20 years from now, even though it omits quite alot like the towers like those from the Midtown East Re-Zoning, 57th Street, whatever gets built on the Javits Center site, the northern half of the Hudson Yards district, Hell's Kitchen, Greenwich Village, Madison Square Park.... well, maybe it isn't so adequate in illustrating how much density is going to be added in the next 20 years after all. :P

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...ewayAerial.jpg


As long as La Guardia airport exists, I agree with you. After it's gone though, who knows.

How does SOM propose to build that glass bubble? That's all I am interested in knowing.

2,000 feet! Yes, New York City finally gets the propsals we were talking about eariler. :P

The plans for the station look fantastic too! The level of drama in the designs is just crazy!

I like this one best. It feels like it's the closest to doing the original Penn Station justice.

God almighty the inside of the Shop design is incredible. It's easy to get carried away with pretty renderings, but assuming this does happen, expanding capacity needs to be priority #1, and aesthetics priority #2. The city does have several million square feet of air rights from the site to sell if I'm not mistaken.

what about the current renovation plans at Moynihan Station ?
is there a update ?

I think SHoP is quickly becoming one of my favorite architectural firms currently working. Everything they've built/proposed recently (Pier 15 and the Pier 17 remodel, Barclays Center, Atlantic Yards towers, Hunter's Point towers, New Domino, and now this Penn renov) has been phenomenal. I feel their unique, inventive style has the potential to have a great influence over the architecture of New York in this century, and I LOVE IT. :cheers:

Edit: I'm examining their website and just saw that they're also the ones behind FIT's new building on 27th street (still a proposal I believe?) and how could I forget the new outlet mall in my very own Staten Island...I can't deal with all this awesomeness. :haha:

I think I like the SHOP proposal the best for the station itself, but the SOM proposal for the surrounding towers and urban layout.

All three proposals are interesting ideas, though.

Although the SHoP proposal looks the most realistic. That SOM one looks badass!!

Small steps ... in the right direction. Even if those projects are just visions for now, it clearly shows that New York is not afraid to build tall any longer. I think they city has finally put the painful last decade behind.

SHoP is very well-connected in the development industry as well - they're worked with ULI and so forth to try and shift development paradigms. They're very politically and economically savvy, and their expertise goes well beyond architecture.

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TATE/130619849

In surprise, Quinn backs mere 10-year extension for Garden
Move by the City Council Speaker came as MSG assembled an all-star cast at a City Council meeting
to oppose a City Planning push for a 15-year extension of the permit MSG wants renewed in perpetuity.


http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pb...creen&maxh=360


By Matt Chaban
June 19, 2013


Absurd, Spike Lee.

I like how he thinks it's easy to move all of those underground rail lines...

Yeah I just lost a bit of respect for the guy. As astute as he is on Tyler Perry and the sad state of black cinema, this comment and lack of understanding of the magnitude of Penn's importance just makes him sound like an idiot.

In fairness, I don't think the public really understands the relative cost and difficulty of moving the arena vs. moving the station and approach tunnels.

I'm glad Quinn sees the need for some major urban planning shifts at Penn, but the Knicks/Rangers are beloved institutions that enjoy broad public support, so educating the public on these matters is crucial. The MSG renovation doesn't help things; most fans who attend a game see a modern, comfortable arena with good amenities that is in a convenient location for transit. They don't see an urban planning disaster.

^ But far more people use Penn Station than attend events at MSG (Im not even talking about out of state). I think many people, if they could, would see MSG taken out of Manhattan altogether. With the success of stadiums and arenas outside of Manhattan, they don' t see why it needs to be. And as much business as it brings to the city, you cannot argue it brings more than Penn Station. I can't imagine the city without. As for MSG, we already know the name travels.

wow! great! hopefully quinn gets her way and msg starts looking for another spot, some pier along the western waterfront? javits? hell's kitchen? there are loads of sites where it could go, even within a few blocks of the existing arena. great news!

I agree that Penn Station is far more important than MSG, but engineering possibilities make it easy enough to make a fantastic Penn Station with a new Garden on top. Think "MSG on top of the Astrodome" as far as the necessary engineering goes. It's going to cost gobs of money in any case, so why not really satisfy every need?

There is no good reason why MSG has to sit directly over Penn when it would be just fine a block away in the Farley Annex. Even with a plan in place it would take several years to demo MSG, demo all of Penn above platform level, relocate platforms and tracks, then rebuild the station. MSG can't afford to be homeless for the time this would take.

Also having MSG directly overhead would just turn it into another dark hole in the ground, something that if billions are to be spent should be carefully avoided.

Very well put. Thank you.

Very well put, but (with all respect) not very well thought out. Look at the original setting of Grand Central. It has a roof covering the whole thing with windows on the top sides. Before it was surrounded by taller buildings, amazing shards of light came shining in and illuminated the place with an ethereal quality. That was 100 years ago. You don't think an architect with a sense of imagination and design could come up with a design using today's technology that could hold a MSG on top of a Penn Station and meet all those demands while creating something great? I bet Santiago Calatrava could do it... or many other architects who are creating masterpieces around the world.

The fact that MSG is shaped like a cone on the inside (basketball court surrounded by rows of seats) would allow for an angled ceiling below, thus allowing plenty of light to reach the new Penn Station. That's just one thought.

If a new MSG is built the current MSG will need to stay open during the contruction. I cannot see how that could possibly happen if it stays on it's existing site between 7th and 8th. It needs to be moved if anything major is going to be done about Penn.

While less natural light gets into GCT these days the overall design/architecture mitigates that a lot. It's not like you're going to confuse it for Penn when getting off a train. There is no compelling reason for MSG to exist above Penn instead of in the Farley Annex, which if they don't want any gap in operations will have to be built out while the current MSG is still open.

For the love of all that's holy keep Calatrava as far from any Penn station project as humanly possible. You want him to design a landmark transportation center with a 20K seat sports arena on top after the WTC hub? I'd rather not see an extra few billion spent on his ego doing a project with better alternatives in hand.

My point is simply that it can be done. The only reason it wouldn't be able to be done would be if everyone involved said it couldn't be done. Then of course it wouldn't be done. But we all know it could. And I only used Calatrava as an example... I'm pretty sure that was clear. :cheers:

My personal opinion is probably the same as anyone else's on this forum: the old Penn Station was gorgeous and the "new" one sucks. MSG houses millionaire athletes getting paid to play games. The transportation of millions of working people is much more important than a ball game. But they need a place to play while their new arena is built (whenever that happens) and building a new Penn Station that's planned for distant future traffic and a beautiful aesthetic is paramount.