Yeah, the Garden has to go. As the area around Penn gets more developed, Manhattan West, 15 Penn, and there are lots all around Penn zoned for big new towers, the station is going to get even more crowded, if that's possible. So to make Penn Station even just humane, let alone a grand experience depicted in some of the renderings in this thread, the Garden's gotta move. The Farley building still makes the most sense, as the Dolan's wouldn't want to move too far from all the transit convenience of Penn Station, and you could fit an arena there.
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I hope the mayor does take MSG via eminent domain. (Granted, I'm not a NY taxpayer, but they may use Federal grants).
Penn Station shouldn't have to hunker beneath a skyscraper, arena, or anything else. |
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I don't know if it's possible but I'd like to see 2 Penn demolished in favor of building 2-4 high rises in the corners around MSG like the Barclays Center development. You could then use the land 2 Penn sat on for a new grandiose Penn Station building (would probably have to dig quite a ways over to the rails underneath MSG though).
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Article in the NYTimes yesterday about the permit renewal. Remember, City Council, Forever Is a Really Long Time, worth a read.
"...The Council could grant a 10-year permit, enough time so that the Garden and the various parties responsible for the station can come up with an appropriately aggressive plan to improve the site, a plan that should include discussions about a possible future home, elsewhere, for the arena. Renewal of the permit is one of the few points of leverage the city has over the Garden..." I hope the city would really start to force the Dolan's hand here. Penn needs a massive upgrade to be a humane and sanitary station for today's passengers to speak nothing of what it'll be like in a 10+ years, it sits on millions of sf of air rights which could be used to partially fund the project, but nothing can be done while this utter POS sits on top of it. |
I didn't know they built a stadium there... Waste of space!
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Do any of you, especially the ones who are not from New York, understand that they are completing a renovation of the Garden that is approaching $1 BILLION??
The building on the outside is dated, yes. It is far from what I would call first class from the outside. It interferes with the ability to make any worthy and beneficial changes to upgrade Penn or build a new Penn. I agree with your sentiments on this, but one needs to be realistic. The inside of the Garden is phenomenal now and has one more phase of renovation to go next summer. The entire building was gutted inside - the seating bowls, the concourses, the service spaces - were all completely removed and rebuilt. Yes, the exterior remained and could use a major remodel, however, it is a brand NEW building inside an existing shell. I'm all for more Scrapers and a new Penn Station, however, far too much $$$ was just spent to basically build a new MSG. To think that this Garden is going anywhere anytime soon is a fools errand and pipe dream. |
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Launching such a costly renovation before you get the permit renewal is a risk the Dolans have decided to bear. Trying to blackmail the city into an eternal renewal because they spent the cash should be relatively low on the list of considerations. I'd say the city should issue a 10 year extension and imply strongly that future renewals will be for shorter terms (if approved at all) and it's in their best interest to start thinking about relocation further west either to Farley or on to part of the Javits site. |
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Agreed, I'd add that the Dolan's are likely not only advocating for a perpetual permit, but also a permanent tax exemption along with the permit. |
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This is not to mention that Penn Station, and the economic activity it enables, is worth way more than $1 billion. |
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MSG is in the middle of a $1 billion renovation. It will probably outlive all of us.
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Unless everyone here is on Social Security, I seriously doubt that.
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meanwhile, full court press on farley!!!
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Madison Square Garden, Permit Lapsed, Faces New Planning Pressure
By DAVID W. DUNLAP February 15, 2013, 6:54 pm "... The expiration of the permit is more than a matter of administrative arcana, however. It has been seized on by advocates of a comprehensive planning process for Penn Station and the Garden. They want the City Planning Commission to use the permit renewal as leverage to compel serious discussion about moving the arena to a new site, and getting it off the top of the train station — an idea that surfaces and sinks again with some regularity... ...On Thursday, as the Garden’s application began its journey through the city’s land-use procedure, Community Board 5 voted 36 to 0, with one abstention, to deny the permit extension, as well as the Garden’s accompanying request to install much larger signage on the Eighth Avenue facade. Instead, the board proposed that the permit be extended only for 10 years, enough time for a thoughtful plan to be developed, but not so much time as to allow Garden executives and city officials to ignore or shrug off the idea. The board said it believed that a new arena at a different location would be “in the long-term interests of the tens of millions of people who travel through Penn Station every year,” as well as nearby property owners, New York City generally and the region as a whole... ...Robert D. Yaro, the president of the Regional Plan Association, a private organization, said in an interview: “I have this old-fashioned idea that New Yorkers are entitled to having a world-class arena in Manhattan and a world-class train station. We’ve demonstrated convincingly that you can’t have both of these on the same site.” He said that a shorter extension of the special permit was a “pretty good idea” as a planning measure." Madison Square Garden's Permanent Renewal Opposed by Community Board February 15, 2013 10:18am | By Alan Neuhauser, DNAinfo Reporter/Producer "...CB5 instead recommended at its full board meeting to approve a 10-year permit for MSG, giving the community time to develop plans to relocate "The World’s Most Famous Arena." Members want the arena to move in order to give room to expand the overcrowded Penn Station below. "The committee thought that rather than granting the Garden a renewal in perpetuity, we thought we should create a planning period — a 10-year planning period …to find a better location for Madison Square Garden,” Raju Mann, acting chairman of the board’s land-use committee, explained Thursday night. “We don’t have a world-class arena, frankly, and we don’t have a world-class [train] station. And we should have both.” ...The CB5 recommendation will next go before the borough president, who has 30 days to weigh in, and then to the city planning commission, before going officially before the City Council." |
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Does Penn have air rights to sell?
Possibly allow them to sell any rights they might have and use that to relocate, and the developer purchasing the rights could build a high rise atop this half of the station. http://www.gothamist.com/attachments...oynstation.JPG |
^ Yeah. 6M square feet or so.
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Years ago, before the Penn Station in Manhattan existed, the main train station was in Jersey City. It had a fantastic European style train shed, since demolished. What a shame that they demolished the great train sheds and instead put the trains in a dungeon underground. I am annoyed that the new Farley plan does not seem to have the trains tracks open to the light at all. That is why, given the restrictions that the Farley building imposes on any changes due to its landmark status, the removal of MSG is even more imperative to create a proper train station for NYC once again, even though it never have a classic train shed.
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http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TATE/130329971
Effort to replant Madison Square Garden tips off The Regional Plan Association and the Municipal Art Society of New York launch a joint campaign to relocate Madison Square Garden in order to rejuvenate Penn Station, which sits underneath it. By Andrew J. Hawkins March 21, 2013 Quote:
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This might actually happen...
Stringer backs 10-year limit on Madison Square Garden permit extension March 27, 2013 06:00PM http://therealdeal.com/wp-content/up...2013/03/63.jpg "Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer today recommended that the City Planning Commission endorse a proposal to expand Penn Station by shifting the location of Madison Square Garden, Crain’s reported... ... Rather, he supported a 10-year limit on the permit extension, which would allow developers and planners to brainstorm a plan to boost economic growth on the West Side. MSG’s permit to operate as an over 2,500-seat arena expired in January. ...“It is time to build a more spacious, attractive station that’s going to encourage [mass] transportation use,” Stringer told Crain’s. ...Manhattan Community Board 5 has said it wants MSG’s permit limited to 10 years..." |
So we're going to need to wait another decade before that nightmare that's called Penn Station has a chance of being rebuilt?
Why can't they just go ahead and do Moynihan station instead of renovating Penn? I really don't want to spend a decade waiting (then another decade while it's being built) and I'm tired of getting off the train and walking into that dump. |
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The MSG site prevents a grand entrance and aboveground concourse from being built, though, and blocks 6 million square feet of air rights for new towers. But the final result will include everything you see in the current Penn. The difference would be an expanded underground and grand new aboveground space. And, of course, the 6 million square feet of air rights will mean huge new towers. The previous Vornado plan called for two towers, each taller than ESB, flanking a gigantic new glass train station hall. |
This is why. The platforms are underneath Penn Station, between 7th and 8th. A Moynihan Station west of 8th would only touch the very end of the platforms (the West End Concourse, part of Moynihan, is in green). This means each platform would only have one point of access to Moynihan, leading to extreme crowding every time a train is departing. It's chaotic enough right now.
For this reason, Moynihan can't be a replacement for Penn. It can only be an addition that expands capacity. http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4976/picture6nj.jpg Ten years seems like a long time, but Penn Station is one of the most congested, crowded sites on earth, rivaling spots in Tokyo. It takes time to come up with a plan that works for everybody, funds to build it, and a long time to build a giant new station when thousands of people must pass through daily. It will take even longer if the 10-year plan passes and the Dolans bring their inevitable lawsuit. There's also the problem of connections. If Amtrak builds their Gateway tunnel to bring another two tracks beneath the Hudson, where do those trains go? It's been suggested that Penn could handle these trains already, if it had bigger concourses and better management. I'm hoping for a connection between Penn and Grand Central, which would be the key achievement of the entire NY rail system. |
^^ Where the Gateway tunnels would go is shown below.
Here's a link to Stringer's recommendation. I haven't had a time to read through it, but Second Ave Sagas gave it a good review. As for connecting Penn and GCT, I've always thought an extension of the S would be ideal. Connecting NY's two rail hubs, and Time Square would be perfect. http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/w...outh-Plans.png http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...teway-project/ |
This is a great update yankeesfan1000. It is a great overview of all the projects west of the Moynihan station, which will be even busier in the near future.
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Move Madison Square Garden to give Penn Station more space: Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer
By Erin Durkin March 27, 2013 http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopo...g28n-3-web.jpg Quote:
I'd personally prefer that the Garden be relocated even further west, but out of those two sites I like 9th Ave. and 30th St. the most, the whole point is to get the garden somewhere where it won't block up traffic more than it has to. |
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The only reason nobody's talking about this is because you'd eventually have to integrate NJT and MTA. You'd basically need to create a new agency to run commuter services across the tri-state area, or come up with some confusing arrangement to let each agency's trains continue onto the other agency's territory. The S can't really be extended, anyway.... it's boxed in at both ends. |
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Personally I'd vote for NJT to be rolled into the MTA along with PATH (the PA has no business running this or dumping amounts of money even the MTA would consider obscene into the WTC hub). |
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Just a thought, but it would be awesome to see the 33rd St leg of PATH extended through the new Hudson tunnel back into New Jersey tunneling under JFK or Bergenline through Union City, West NY terminating in Cliffside Park or Palisades Park. NJT bus service wold hate the idea, but would/could spark massive investment into those cities.
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While we're in fantasy territory... through route the 7 with the L? You'd have to switch the L to IRT rolling stock and rebuild some platforms, but it's a hell of a lot easier than going to Secaucus.
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My Not so far fetched Regional Proposals call for merging all the commuter rail services into one new Agency.... The Northern , Eastern and Western Networks would replace Metro North , the Long Island Railroad , and New Jersey Transit. The Long Island Railroad would be refitted with overhead wires and expanded into the City to Fulton Street Transit Hub , and Restored lines on Long Island creating a completed regional island system. Metro North would be expanded down to Fulton Street Transit hub and along the I-287 Corridor. Various Regional Rail Expansions would be done to the system in Connecticut like the Beacon/Maybrook line , New Milford Extension , Bristol & Torrington Branches... New Jersey Transit would see numerous Regional Rail Expansions up West of the Hudson to Newburgh , down in the Central , West into the Western Foothills. The Network would be fully electrified , the Urban Areas would see a few stations restored like Ampere , Harrison , Weequahic , Hillside , North Paterson , Kearny , and North Arlington. The through lines would replace existing line services , like the Morristown/Ronkonkoma line would become the East-West Corridor , or the Harlem/Staten Island RR/North Jersey Coast line would become the North-South Corridor. There would also be a 2 part beltway line composed of old abandoned Freight lines in Staten Island , New Jersey and a lightly used line in Brooklyn and Queens....along with the I-287 Corridor. These through and ring systems would form the backbone of the system , carrying most of the Passengers. Branch services and short lines like the Gladstone or Far Rockaway Branch would terminate at the current terminals. This would not be the only system I would merge either. New England would get its own Regional Rail agency , SEPTA would lose its Regional Rail to a new Agency covering Southeastern/Eastern Pennsylvania , Delaware , Eastern Maryland and South Jersey's Rail System. Maryland , DC , and Virgina would get another agency , Amtrak would remain....
A sample.... https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...01011,1.674042 East-West Corridor Philpsburg - Main Street Philpsburg - US 22 / NJ 57 Park / Ride Washington Hackettstown Mount Olive Netcong Lake Hopatcong Mount Arlington Dover Denville Mount Tabor Morris Plains Morristown Convent Station Madison Chatham Summit Short Hills Millburn Maplewood South Orange Orange Brick Church Newark Board Street Harrison Journal SQ West 4th Street Fulton Street Borough Hall Atlantic Avenue Nostrand Avenue East New York Jamaica Hollis Queens Village Floral Park Stewart Manor Nassau Boulevard Garden City East Garden City East Meadow Levittown Farmingdale Pinelawn Wyandanch Deer Park Brentwood Central Islip Ronkonkoma North - South Regional Service Wassaic Dover Plains Harlem Valley – Wingdale Appalachian Trail Pawling Patterson Southeast Brewster Croton Falls Purdy's Golden's Bridge Katonah Bedford Hill Mt. Kisco Chappaqua Pleasentville Hawthrone Valhalla North White Plains White Plains Hartsdale Scarsdale Crestwood Tuckahoe Bronxville Fleetwood Mount Vernon West Wakefield Woodlawn Fordham Harlem-125th Street Grand Central Union Square Fulton Street St. George Tompkinsville Stapleton Clinton Grasmere Old Town Dongan Hills Jefferson Ave Grant City New Dorp Oakwood Heights Bay Terrace Great Kills Eltingville Annadale Huguenot Prince's Bay Pleasant Plains Richmond Valley Nassau Atlantic Perth Amboy South Amboy Laurence Harbor Matawan Hazlet Middletown Red Bank Little Silver Long Branch Elberon Allenhurst Asbury Park Bradley Beach Belmar Spring Lake Manasquan Point Pleasant Beach Bay Head Northeast Corridor - Local Service New London Union Niantic Old Lyme Old Saybrook Westbrook Clinton Madison Guilford Branford East Haven Fair Haven New Haven - State Street New Haven - Union Station West Haven Orange Milford Stratford East Bridgeport Bridgeport Fairfield Metro Fairfield Southport Green Farms Westport East Norwalk South Norwalk Rowayton Darien Norton Heights East Stamford Stamford Old Greenwich Riverside Cos-Cob Greenwich Port Chester Rye Harrison Mamaroneck Larchmont New Rochelle Woodside Orchard Beach-City Island Co-Op City Morris Park Parkchester Hunts Point Astoria Sunnyside JCT New York Penn Station Secaucus JCT Newark Penn Station Newark Liberty Airport North Elizabeth Elizabeth Linden Rahway Metropark Metuchen Edison New Brunswick North Brunswick Princeton JCT Hamilton Trenton Regional Connector Hillburn East Suffern Airmont West Nyack South Nyack Tarrytown JCT Irvington Ardsley on Hudson Dobbs Ferry Hasting on Hudson Greystone Glenwood Yonkers Ludlow Riverdale Spuyten Duyvil Marbel Hill University Heights Morris Heights Yankees-163rd Street Mott Haven Northern Boulvard - Woodside Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst Ridgewood East New York Canarsie Flatbush Ave Ocean Parkway Bay Ridge St. George (Underground) Bayonne (Underground) Port Elizabeth (Depressed) Midtown Elizabeth (Elevated-Viaduct) Elmora Cranford Garwood Westfield Fanwood Netherwood Plainfield Dunellen Bound Brook Raritan Northern Connector Xpress North White Plains White Plains Hartsdale Scarsdale Mount Vernon West Fordham Mott Haven Northern Boulevard - Woodside Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst Forest Hills Kew Gardens Jamaica I-287 Railway Corridor New Haven - State Street New Haven - Union Station West Haven Orange Milford Stratford East Bridgeport Bridgeport Fairfield Metro Fairfield Southport Green Farms Westport East Norwalk South Norwalk Rowayton Darien Norton Heights East Stamford Stamford Old Greenwich Riverside Cos-Cob Greenwich Port Chester Purchase East White Plains (Underground) White Plains (Underground) Fairview (Underground) Elmsford (Underground) Tarrytown JCT (Underground) South Nyack West Nyack Airmont East Suffern (Underground) Hillburn |
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WOW, very ambisious and detailed. While some of these I think would be fairly reachable as they reuse existing tracks/lines, the new tunnels and/or bridges that you are envisioning would be wonderful but certainly not a near term item. I am 1000% for expanding the regions transit lines. Use it every day and any improvement would certainly help not just NYC but also the entire Tri-State area's econmoy. |
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The Regional Connector would serve as a major Rail line in the region , connecting over 22 major lines...current and future. Regional Connector Hillburn (Underground) -- Connecting Service : MNRR Main/Bergen/Port Jervis lines , Future : MNRR Pascack Valley line East Suffern (Underground) Airmont Nanuet (Depressed) West Nyack -- Connecting Service : Future MNRR West Shore line South Nyack (Underground) Tarrytown JCT (Underground) -- Connecting Service : Future MNRR I-287 Rail line to White Plains & Port Chester Irvington -- Connecting Service : MNRR Hudson Line Ardsley on Hudson Dobbs Ferry Hasting on Hudson Greystone Glenwood Yonkers -- Connecting Service : Future Yonkers - White Plains BRT Ludlow Riverdale Spuyten Duyvil Marbel Hill -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 1 Train @ Marbel Hill University Heights Morris Heights Yankees-163rd Street Mott Haven (Underground) -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 2 & 5 Trains @ 3 Av - 149 St Northern Boulvard - Woodside Roosevelt Ave - Woodside -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 7,E,F,M,R Trains @ Jackson Heights - Roosevelt Ave Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst Metroplitian Ave - Ridgewood -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway M Train East New York -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway A,C,J,Z,L Trains @ Broadway JCT & Long Island Railroad @ East New York Canarsie Flatbush Ave -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 2,5 Trains Avenue H -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway Q Train @ Avenue H Ocean Parkway New Utretch Ave - Borough Park -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway D Train @ 62nd Street Bay Ridge -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway R Train @ Bay Ridge Ave St. George (Underground) -- Connecting Service : Staten Island Ferry & Future North Shore BRT or LRT Bayonne (Underground) -- Connecting Service : Hudson Bergen Light Rail @ 8th Street Port Elizabeth (Depressed) -- Connecting Service : Future , Newark - Elizabeth LRT Midtown Elizabeth (Elevated-Viaduct) -- Connecting Service : Northeast Corridor , Future , Newark-Elizabeth LRT Elmora Cranford -- Connecting Service : Raritan Valley line Garwood Westfield Fanwood Netherwood Plainfield Dunellen Bound Brook -- Connecting Service : Future New Brunswick LRT Bridgewater -- Connecting Service : Future West Trenton & Flemington lines Somerville Raritan |
Public Hearing on MSG - Wednesday, April 10, 2013
Just a note to anyone within the NYC metro with any interest in the future of Penn Station/Madison Square Garden - the Planning Commission of the City of New York will meet tomorrow, Wednesday, April 10, 2013, during which a public hearing will be held to discuss Madison Square Garden's request on renewal of its special use permit, as well as a proposal for more signage outside the venue.
Meeting starts at 10:00AM, at Spector Hall, 22 Reade Street. The agenda for the meeting has MSG's requests listed as the last items to be addressed, items 24, 25, and 26. |
I think a good solution for New Jersey would be to use the under utilized Secaucus junction as a starting point to expand PATH. It would drastically reduce traffic to the GW and Lincoln if you built PATH tunnels from Weehawken to the new 7 train expansion on the west side and to the 72nd street 1,2,3 station. You could connect these to the already in progress Hudson/Bergen Light Rail. It would make the Jersey Gold Coast comporable to Queen's and Brooklyn at much less cost and difficulty than the ARC Tunnel or Gateway proposal.
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Nothing we don't already know, but at least the "big vision" is getting national exposure, per NPR.
New York's Penn Station Makeover Faces Arena Sized Obstacle April 09, 2013 3:00 PM Every day, more than 600,000 thousand rail commuters navigate the crowded maze of tunnels and tracks that is Penn Station. Mass transit advocates would like to replace the aging station with a world-class transportation hub. But there's a big obstacle: Madison Square Garden, the arena that sits directly on top of Penn Station. And the Garden's owners show no signs of moving. Listen Here. |
http://commercialobserver.com/2013/0...ssion-hearing/
Opponents and Defenders of MSG Spar at Planning Commission Hearing] By Gus Delaporte 4/11/13 Quote:
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NYguy, what do you think about the possibility of moving to another place the MSG. It is feasible or not? Besides the three solutions, which are shown in the picture can be taken into account, or for the MGM is too complicated to find a new place? http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8539/8...9a499349_b.jpg If the MSG will be moved in the future, Vornado can will build tall towers as are shown in the picture. And a tower can will be taller than the ESB? http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8125/8...c68fa525_b.jpg |
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