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-   -   How Is Covid-19 Impacting Life in Your City? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242036)

twister244 Dec 27, 2021 9:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 9487207)
And if people are so concerned about flight cancellations, push for a vax mandate for all flyers. I'm amazed this hasn't happened yet. Talk about low-hanging fruit. Instead we have people pushing for vax requirements to enter an elevator or empty art gallery for two minutes, and no push for spending hours in a cramped tube with hundreds of others. How many vax-denying hillbillies are frequent fliers anyways?

Because being vaccinated doesn't stop you from getting infected and transmitting the disease to others. It's a tool to prevent severe illness... Many folks testing positive right now are fully vaxxed, yet because they are testing positive (even though they have mild illness) are going home for 5-10 days.

Vaccination requirements wouldn't fix this.

Crawford Dec 27, 2021 9:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twister244 (Post 9487222)
Because being vaccinated doesn't stop you from getting infected and transmitting the disease to others. It's a tool to prevent severe illness... Many folks testing positive right now are fully vaxxed, yet because they are testing positive (even though they have mild illness) are going home for 5-10 days.

Vaccination requirements wouldn't fix this.

Vax requirements would obviously limit Covid spread, which would make millions feel comfortable traveling, since they would know they weren't killing the granny sitting next to them. I know so many people who refuse to fly now, not because they're scared for themselves, but because they're scared for others.

Vax requirements would also obviously help protect flight staff from getting sick, therefore limiting flight cancellations and economic damage. We know fully vaxxed are far less likely to pass onto others. So there are major health, psychological and economic reasons for a national flight vax requirement. It would also put the U.S. in line with other nations.

Also, what is with this constant red herring of "vax doesn't stop all Covid, therefore it shouldn't be required?" Most drunk drivers or gun-toting terrorists won't end up harming someone, so why care? No more law enforcement? Pedophiles won't harm most children in their midst, so no big deal? Teachers can be child molesters? Many stillbirths kill the mother, even with excellent hospital care. So shut the hospitals? Just because something isn't 100% perfect doesn't mean it's ineffective or not worth pursing.

twister244 Dec 27, 2021 9:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 9487229)
Vax requirements would obviously limit Covid spread, which would make millions feel comfortable traveling, since they would know they weren't killing the granny sitting next to them. I know so many people who refuse to fly now, not because they're scared for themselves, but because they're scared for others.

I don't care if it's spreading amongst people who won't develop severe illness.

Our approach has been, and should always been to keep the hospital system from being overwhelmed. It's clear that won't happen from Covid anymore. But since everyone keeps shifting the goal posts based on making millions feel comfortable traveling.......

JManc Dec 27, 2021 9:47 PM

I don't like it but I don't see any other alternative but airlines themselves to enact mandates. No, it won't stop spread but would slow it down. It would either force those who are unvaccinated to get vaccinated or drive. I'm sure flight staff would support it.

iheartthed Dec 27, 2021 9:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 9487177)
And indeed, the flight worker unions are pushing against the airlines (unsurprisingly...) to not reduce the isolation time. The trouble is that probably some people become uncontagious after a few days but others may take longer than 10 days, and it's probably not so easy to tell, so it's difficult to set policy here.

Yeah. I do think the isolation guidelines need to be clarified, but it's ridiculous to say that people should come to work when they are proven infected and thus likely contagious lol. And changing that policy wouldn't change the airlines situation at all, since a significant subset of people infected by omicron are obviously becoming symptomatic. The airlines would just have even more spread in their workforce if they allowed infected people to work.

iheartthed Dec 27, 2021 9:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9487256)
I don't like it but I don't see any other alternative but airlines themselves to enact mandates. No, it won't stop spread but would slow it down. It would either force those who are unvaccinated to get vaccinated or drive. I'm sure flight staff would support it.

Dr. Fauci seems ambivalent about a flyer mandate. He said that a mandate for airline passengers wouldn't really do much to prevent the spread, but it might encourage more people to get vaccinated.

10023 Dec 27, 2021 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 9487207)
HK's waning viability as a financial/business center is due to Beijing's takeover, not Covid. At this point, HK is basically mainland China, but with better food and worse housing. I used to have lots of expat friends based in HK; the only one who remains married a local HKer and had three kids, then got divorced, but doesn't want to leave his kids.

And if people are so concerned about flight cancellations, push for a vax mandate for all flyers. I'm amazed this hasn't happened yet. Talk about low-hanging fruit. Instead we have people pushing for vax requirements to enter an elevator or empty art gallery for two minutes, and no push for spending hours in a cramped tube with hundreds of others. How many vax-denying hillbillies are frequent fliers anyways?

It’s all moot at this point.

Hospital capacity isn’t being stretched by the current wave (because infections are generally mild). This means that someone else getting sick doesn’t matter to you or me. That means that vaccine mandates are superfluous. It also means that case levels don’t matter.

TWAK Dec 27, 2021 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9487256)
I don't like it but I don't see any other alternative but airlines themselves to enact mandates. No, it won't stop spread but would slow it down. It would either force those who are unvaccinated to get vaccinated or drive. I'm sure flight staff would support it.

Honesty is the key. You can not like something but still understand that it's a good move.
Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9487271)
It’s all moot at this point.

Hospital capacity isn’t being stretched by the current wave (because infections are generally mild). This means that someone else getting sick doesn’t matter to you or me. That means that vaccine mandates are superfluous. It also means that case levels don’t matter.

Yes it is. You just don't like the restrictions...
Quote:

As a fast-spreading new strain of the coronavirus swarms across the country, hospitals in Ohio running low on beds and staff recently took out a full-page newspaper advertisement pleading with unvaccinated Americans to finally get the shot. It read, simply, “Help.”
source

SIGSEGV Dec 27, 2021 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 9487257)
Yeah. I do think the isolation guidelines need to be clarified, but it's ridiculous to say that people should come to work when they are proven infected and thus likely contagious lol. And changing that policy wouldn't change the airlines situation at all, since a significant subset of people infected by omicron are obviously becoming symptomatic. The airlines would just have even more spread in their workforce if they allowed infected people to work.

I completely agree (and argued so in the other thread). This likely only stops being true once a higher fraction of the workforce is sick than the symptomatic proportion, which likely isn't reached until more than half of the workforce calls out sick (which is obviously not the case, given that the vast majority of flights are still happening).

JManc Dec 28, 2021 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWAK (Post 9487272)
Honesty is the key. You can not like something but still understand that it's a good move.

I don't like broccoli either but still eat it.

SIGSEGV Dec 28, 2021 12:52 AM

And the CDC now only recommends a 5 day isolation period if asymptomatic (followed by 5 days of wearing masks around others):

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2...-guidance.html

I'm not sure if the evidence is strong enough to warrant this but clearly they're bowing to political pressures.

twister244 Dec 28, 2021 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 9487394)
I'm not sure if the evidence is strong enough to warrant this but clearly they're bowing to political pressures.

Or it's because they are hitting a wall called reality.

If we continue to have day-over-day of 2k+ flight cancellations for a bunch of mild covid infections, the political calculus starts to sour pretty damn fast.

JManc Dec 28, 2021 1:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twister244 (Post 9487397)
Or it's because they are hitting a wall called reality.

If we continue to have day-over-day of 2k+ flight cancellations for a bunch of mild covid infections, the political calculus starts to sour pretty damn fast.

I think they caved but obviously understand that society is ready to move on and this 5 day guidance is probably the minimum recommendation short of throwing it out the window. I don't know how many times the average person has been exposed but a 2-week quarantine each time is killing productivity.

the urban politician Dec 28, 2021 1:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twister244 (Post 9487397)
Or it's because they are hitting a wall called reality.

If we continue to have day-over-day of 2k+ flight cancellations for a bunch of mild covid infections, the political calculus starts to sour pretty damn fast.

Political pressure to start using basic sense is going to continue to weigh on the CDC, which is a tunnel vision organization full of germaphobes that should advise, NOT dictate public policy

JManc Dec 28, 2021 2:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9487415)
Political pressure to start using basic sense is going to continue to weigh on the CDC, which is a tunnel vision organization full of germaphobes that should advise, NOT dictate public policy

It's literally their job to be cautious and encourage caution but they don't make policy and it's actually local, state and federal officials failing to weigh CDC's recommendations along with everything else. Even if you hate your vegetables and are overweight, it's still your doctor's job to tell you are getting too fat and need more greens in your diet.

the urban politician Dec 28, 2021 2:34 AM

^ Right, but the politicians (especially from one party) have literally just handed the CDC the keys and told them “drive it”.

And that’s why we are in such a mess with so much shitty, mixed messaging

xzmattzx Dec 28, 2021 4:05 AM

Correct, the CDC should be only recommending stuff from a medical standpoint. But when the CDC says that people should follow state and local protocols, and then states enact regulations based on CDC guidance, you enter a death spiral where a recommendation becomes law. At least, that's the way it was about a year ago before vaccines became widely available.

10023 Dec 28, 2021 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9487371)
I don't like broccoli either but still eat it.

Try roasting on very high heat. Give it a decent char. Add chilies and roasted garlic at the end and plenty of salt. :)

10023 Dec 28, 2021 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9487440)
^ Right, but the politicians (especially from one party) have literally just handed the CDC the keys and told them “drive it”.

And that’s why we are in such a mess with so much shitty, mixed messaging

You do remember that this was my issue back in April 2020?

10023 Dec 28, 2021 1:32 PM

Covid: Evidence does not support more England curbs - minister

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59807241


Here’s the big “duh” statement:

Quote:

Prof Paul Hunter, professor in medicine at the University of East Anglia, told BBC Breakfast that in time people with Covid should be allowed to "go about their normal lives" as they would with a common cold.

"If the self-isolation rules are what's making the pain associated with Covid, then we need to do that perhaps sooner rather than later," he said.

The problem is not the virus, it’s all the testing and isolation rules when people aren’t actually getting sick anymore. Some people will still die but always will. They die of flu or even a bad cold, if they’re old and frail enough. That’s life.

Note the Easter timing mention. That seems consistent with the government moving to treat it like a cold/flu from end March as I was told a month or so ago (but that was from someone in government, not a public source).


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