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the urban politician Aug 20, 2021 2:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handro (Post 9371230)
anti-maskers confirmed as biggest babies on the planet. How easy it is to just throw on a mask in stores and go about your life. It reminds me of my niece throwing a temper tantrum because she doesn’t want to put on shoes before leaving the house.

That this has become the latest symbol of “freedom” for some fools is hilarious and pathetic.

^ Once again, I don't think it's as much about masks as you think. I will post again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9371209)
I think it’s deeper than masking. I think a lot of people are tired of their Governors acting like they are kings, and “what I declare is law”

I relate to that. Being against mask mandates is, in a sense, a show of defiance to that. To many, I think it’s less about masks and more about showing the finger to leaders who they think are acting like they are monarchs in what is actually a Democracy.

That’s the feeling I’m getting.


SIGSEGV Aug 20, 2021 3:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9371209)
I think it’s deeper than masking. I think a lot of people are tired of their Governors acting like they are kings, and “what I declare is law”

I relate to that. Being against mask mandates is, in a sense, a show of defiance to that. To many, I think it’s less about masks and more about showing the finger to leaders who they think are acting like they are monarchs in what is actually a Democracy.

That’s the feeling I’m getting.

You are welcome to vote against the governor in the next election. And besides, the mask mandate in Chicago has nothing to do with the governor.

Do you feel similarly about seat belt laws, speed limits and mandatory childhood vaccinations?

SIGSEGV Aug 20, 2021 3:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man (Post 9371221)
When does this end?

If in 2030 Chicago sees 401 cases in one day, we randomly go back to masking?

This is a religion to many now, and I am not converting to it.

If hospitals around the country are overflowing, probably, but by then, hopefully anti-maskers seem as rabid as anti-seatbelters. You guys sound like this guy: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...791-story.html

Quote:

SEAT BELT LAW AN ASSAULT ON FREEDOM
William J. Holdorf
CHICAGO TRIBUNE

It was refreshing to read your recent editorial against expanding the Illinois mandatory safety belt use law so police officers can pull over every motorist in the state, at will, for not wearing a safety belt. Taking away personal freedom in order to adopt the personal safety standards of the governor and those state legislators who voted for the safety belt law, while excluding all other safety devices such as air bags, is not the answer to saving lives. In this country, saving freedom is more important than trying to regulate lives through legislation.
In fact, there's a good argument that mandatory seatbelts are more tyrannical, since seat belts don't really prevent spread of automobile collision injuries to others while the main benefit of masking is preventing spread to others.

Kngkyle Aug 20, 2021 3:31 PM

Being forced to wear a seat belt is being forced to protect yourself. Being forced to wear a mask is being forced to protect the anti-vax. Na.

SIGSEGV Aug 20, 2021 3:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kngkyle (Post 9371342)
Being forced to wear a seat belt is being forced to protect yourself. Being forced to wear a mask is being forced to protect the anti-vax. Na.

I mean, I agree mandatory vaccinations is a more effective and less invasive public health measure, so hopefully that will come soon.

The next problem with that will be this: https://www.chicagobusiness.com/heal...ines-what-then

the urban politician Aug 20, 2021 3:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 9371311)
You are welcome to vote against the governor in the next election. And besides, the mask mandate in Chicago has nothing to do with the governor.

Do you feel similarly about seat belt laws, speed limits and mandatory childhood vaccinations?

You obviously misread my post. I will post it again:

Quote:

I think it’s deeper than masking. I think a lot of people are tired of their Governors acting like they are kings, and “what I declare is law”

I relate to that. Being against mask mandates is, in a sense, a show of defiance to that. To many, I think it’s less about masks and more about showing the finger to leaders who they think are acting like they are monarchs in what is actually a Democracy.

That’s the feeling I’m getting.
Seat belt laws, speed limits, and mandatory vaccinations are laws. They were passed by general assemblies though a vote.

Mandates by Governors and Mayors are not the same thing. "I declare it so" is not democracy.

If you don't understand that, then you are being coy and you know it.

iheartthed Aug 20, 2021 4:17 PM

The mask mandates should've been tied to metrics. But I think we are past the point in the pandemic where mask mandates should be the focus of the government's efforts in controlling the spread. Mandates in certain scenarios make sense (hospitals, public transit, schools, etc.) but the focus should be on encouraging vaccinations. I think the reluctance by some execs to mandate masks broadly again is the right move for now.

jtown,man Aug 20, 2021 5:22 PM

You're right, they should be tied to metrics:

Positivity
Cases
Hospitalizations
Deaths

The CTU is arguing about how to go about this, which metric do you think they will go with? Its obvious. They will go with the one or two that mean the least amount.



If Chicago said once we hit X amount of people dying of Covid per 100k, I would be more than happy to comply. But they are simply using cases per day. They pick the most useless statistic while most of the city is vaccinated. Why?

The goalposts keep being moved.

If our hospitals were full and people were dying in large numbers, ok. I am not a neanderthal. However, this isn't the case in Chicago. Not even close.

10023 Aug 20, 2021 7:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handro (Post 9371230)
anti-maskers confirmed as biggest babies on the planet. How easy it is to just throw on a mask in stores and go about your life. It reminds me of my niece throwing a temper tantrum because she doesn’t want to put on shoes before leaving the house.

That this has become the latest symbol of “freedom” for some fools is hilarious and pathetic.

Oh my fucking god.

A perfectly healthy person putting a mask on their face in order to be allowed to go about daily life is not, in any way, like putting on shoes.

JManc Aug 20, 2021 8:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9371597)
Oh my fucking god.

A perfectly healthy person putting a mask on their face in order to be allowed to go about daily life is not, in any way, like putting on shoes.

I think he's referring to those flipping out when asked or required to wear a mask before entering an establishment. Just do what they ask, it's their business. I loath wearing one myself and haven't in a long while (not required anywhere) but I keep one in all my cars just in case I happen to go somewhere that requires them.

mrnyc Aug 20, 2021 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10023 (Post 9371140)
Look, here’s a basic question with I think a basic answer:

Should vaccinated people have to take on the burden of precautions (like masks) or restrictions (like social distancing e.g. table service only or capacity limits) because unvaccinated people might take up ICU beds?

The answer to me is quite clearly no.

Both on principle, and because I’m not sure it helps much. We shouldn’t go back into lockdown no matter how many anti-vaxxers die, and more moderate restrictions are just a pain in the ass that don’t accomplish anything.


that is incorrect and the burden remains on everyone anyway.

it's not the burden of your fussiness about wearing masks, its because the problem is the vaxxed catching variants and related long haul issues.

which ups insurance costs for everyone.

i don't want to pay when your mom has to take you to the doctor because you wouldn't wear a mask, and even if you are vaxxed you don't want to maybe be wheezing for a year and brain fog or whatever.

that's why masking indoors and in metros should remain for now.

no question it sux, but you gotta keep your big boy pants on about it for awhile longer and respect private business wishes when they require a mask. we'll get there.

mrnyc Aug 20, 2021 10:17 PM

as for the unvaxxed, raising the social pressure, offering incentives and limiting where they can go without a mask is about all you can do i think. and that is indeed what is happening. it seems to be slowly but surely working on the stragglers. it will take time to counter the massive russian military disinfo propaganda machine, but we are winning that battle, although its unfortunately now at a relative snail's pace compared to this past spring.

SIGSEGV Aug 21, 2021 2:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 9371357)
You obviously misread my post. I will post it again:



Seat belt laws, speed limits, and mandatory vaccinations are laws. They were passed by general assemblies though a vote.

Mandates by Governors and Mayors are not the same thing. "I declare it so" is not democracy.

If you don't understand that, then you are being coy and you know it.

Public health has to be the purview of the executive--state legislatures are only in session a relatively small fraction of the time, in some states every other year, and for good reason, executives have wide latitude to enact public health measures.

Now if those public health measures were unnecessary or ineffective (like if Pritzker decided to quarantine Peoria for no reason), then they certainly could be successfully challenged in court, so there is a check on this.

The legislature can probably in most states overrule the governor if they feel like it once they're in session. Though that doesn't always work out for them, as in Arkansas: https://apnews.com/article/health-ar...6d8b3cf4039404

Matthew Aug 21, 2021 3:25 AM

Just before the pandemic, my wife (who has worn glasses since she was a kid) finally talked me into getting glasses. If you wear glasses, a mask isn't fun. Even with a mask that has a metal wire at the top, glasses still fog. You need something pushing the mask outward from the bottom, creating an opening for the hot humid breaths to escape. Then the mask is useless against COVID-19. I use the button holes in my sweaters or the space between the buttons on the shirt to hold my glasses and I'm sure Lauren wanted me to be bespectacled like her. Then you add the acne some people are reporting and that hot humid breath trapped over your face on a hot day. I can see why some people would shop at other stores, cross county lines or a state line, if your city is at a state line. If you're fully vaccinated, you can be comfortable, use your glasses, have easy-to-hear discussions, and some shopping trips can take a while. Again, we have a young son (too young to get vaccinated) and will mask for him. I don't want to force others around me to mask and I'm sure we will want to go mask free when our son is vaccinated.

I like the idea of allowing businesses to set their own masking policy and I like the idea of businesses allowing customers to decide for themselves what level of risk they want to take. That is what we have in Georgia / Suburban Atlanta. This week, I've seen store and restaurant employees maskless and maybe a quarter-to-a-third of customers maskless. I think all big box hardware stores require masks? Other places don't want to lose valuable and hard-to-replace employees by requiring them to enforce it and do you risk losing customers? Here, the Governor won't allow cities or counties to pass mask mandates. While it's not allowed to be discussed in detail, in this thread, I do think this will become a big issue in 2022 and 2024 if people are still wearing masks. I'm not allowed to go into detail on that (in this thread) and I won't. This could be a strategy to attract jobs and population growth, which I think is the more interesting side of the discussion? It would be interesting to see if this impacts decisions to move down here? I'm sure the freedom to go mask free most of the time and the images of full hospitals, here in the South, impact decisions to both move here and stay away. There are a growing number of non-vaccinated people who believe if they become sick, they can just take monoclonal antibodies and be cured instantly. They often talk of the brand taken by a certain politician (won't name the person here to avoid politics). With insurance now talking about not covering COVID-19 hospital visits for the unvaccinated (I'm sure that treatment also won't be covered), we could see a big rise in people getting the vaccine.

Now, for what I really want to talk about:
Knowing this will be around for many years / decades and there will always be people missing boosters, not taking the vaccine, new variants, etc., at what point do we have enough data to know how to expand our hospitals? I'm expecting a hospital construction boom from this. They need to know how many beds, do you make it flexible space that can become ICU space or something else (as hospitalizations rise and fall), and do architects, tech companies, and hospitals research how to create spaces where more can be done with less hospital staff? What would that look like? Will cities with better hospitals become bigger magnets for population growth and businesses? Could we see noteworthy hospitals on the list with incentives, ready-to-go sites/spaces, educated workforce, transportation, etc., in attracting jobs? Not just a 50-bed branch or mini-hospital, but big hospitals and university research medical centers. Think of the impact on smaller metros that don't have big hospitals and research-intensive university medical centers. Think of the impact on smaller metros that do have a university research medical center. Could that decide the next round of up-and-coming cities and fast-growing cities?

SIGSEGV Aug 21, 2021 3:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew (Post 9372112)
Now, for what I really want to talk about:
Knowing this will be around for many years / decades and there will always be people missing boosters, not taking the vaccine, new variants, etc., at what point do we have enough data to know how to expand our hospitals? I'm expecting a hospital construction boom from this. They need to know how many beds, do you make it flexible space that can become ICU space or something else (as hospitalizations rise and fall), and do architects, tech companies, and hospitals research how to create spaces where more can be done with less hospital staff? What would that look like? Will cities with better hospitals become bigger magnets for population growth and businesses? Could we see noteworthy hospitals on the list with incentives, ready-to-go sites/spaces, educated workforce, transportation, etc., in attracting jobs? Not just a 50-bed branch or mini-hospital, but big hospitals and university research medical centers. Think of the impact on smaller metros that don't have big hospitals and research-intensive university medical centers. Think of the impact on smaller metros that do have a university research medical center. Could that decide the next round of up-and-coming cities and fast-growing cities?

It's not hospital space that's necessarily the issue (you can get creative with where you put patients, put tents in parking lots, etc.), but we already have a shortage of health professionals and the ability to train them. So really, we should be expanding medical schools I guess...

Pedestrian Aug 21, 2021 5:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew (Post 9372112)
Just before the pandemic, my wife (who has worn glasses since she was a kid) finally talked me into getting glasses. If you wear glasses, a mask isn't fun. Even with a mask that has a metal wire at the top, glasses still fog. You need something pushing the mask outward from the bottom, creating an opening for the hot humid breaths to escape. Then the mask is useless against COVID-19. I use the button holes in my sweaters or the space between the buttons on the shirt to hold my glasses and I'm sure Lauren wanted me to be bespectacled like her. Then you add the acne some people are reporting and that hot humid breath trapped over your face on a hot day. I can see why some people would shop at other stores, cross county lines or a state line, if your city is at a state line. If you're fully vaccinated, you can be comfortable, use your glasses, have easy-to-hear discussions, and some shopping trips can take a while. Again, we have a young son (too young to get vaccinated) and will mask for him. I don't want to force others around me to mask and I'm sure we will want to go mask free when our son is vaccinated.

I bet you can cope. I've worn glasses for 60 years and I can. Just put the mask on first, then the glasses. Or get some anti-fog stuff from someplace:

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/ser...524778/enhance

Quote:

I like the idea of allowing businesses to set their own masking policy and I like the idea of businesses allowing customers to decide for themselves what level of risk they want to take. That is what we have in Georgia / Suburban Atlanta. This week, I've seen store and restaurant employees maskless and maybe a quarter-to-a-third of customers maskless. I think all big box hardware stores require masks? Other places don't want to lose valuable and hard-to-replace employees by requiring them to enforce it and do you risk losing customers? Here, the Governor won't allow cities or counties to pass mask mandates. While it's not allowed to be discussed in detail, in this thread, I do think this will become a big issue in 2022 and 2024 if people are still wearing masks. I'm not allowed to go into detail on that (in this thread) and I won't. This could be a strategy to attract jobs and population growth, which I think is the more interesting side of the discussion? It would be interesting to see if this impacts decisions to move down here? I'm sure the freedom to go mask free most of the time and the images of full hospitals, here in the South, impact decisions to both move here and stay away. There are a growing number of non-vaccinated people who believe if they become sick, they can just take monoclonal antibodies and be cured instantly. They often talk of the brand taken by a certain politician (won't name the person here to avoid politics). With insurance now talking about not covering COVID-19 hospital visits for the unvaccinated (I'm sure that treatment also won't be covered), we could see a big rise in people getting the vaccine.
The point of mask mandates, as it has been for over a year, is that the best masks (KN95, N95) protect the wearer to some degree but the cloth masks most people wear primarily protect others by reducing the emission of aerosols by the wearer. Therefore, your protection depends on other people being masked and other people may not be sufficiently motivated to protect you unless the government or the proprietor tells them they have to. Other people can be uncaring sh*ts.

Quote:

Now, for what I really want to talk about:
Knowing this will be around for many years / decades and there will always be people missing boosters, not taking the vaccine, new variants, etc., at what point do we have enough data to know how to expand our hospitals? I'm expecting a hospital construction boom from this. They need to know how many beds, do you make it flexible space that can become ICU space or something else (as hospitalizations rise and fall), and do architects, tech companies, and hospitals research how to create spaces where more can be done with less hospital staff? What would that look like? Will cities with better hospitals become bigger magnets for population growth and businesses? Could we see noteworthy hospitals on the list with incentives, ready-to-go sites/spaces, educated workforce, transportation, etc., in attracting jobs? Not just a 50-bed branch or mini-hospital, but big hospitals and university research medical centers. Think of the impact on smaller metros that don't have big hospitals and research-intensive university medical centers. Think of the impact on smaller metros that do have a university research medical center. Could that decide the next round of up-and-coming cities and fast-growing cities?
There will be no hospital building boom. None. No one--not the private owners of most hospitals, not the local governments who own others--can afford to build and especially not to staff hospital capacity way beyond what will be used under normal circumstances. Hospitals are incredibly expensive. California has been mandating the construction of new hospitals that meet earthquake codes that require them to survive and remain in operation for the maximal predicted earthquake. San Francisco has built a couple recently to comply with this and they each cost billions of $ with a B. The new acute care building at SF General with just over 400 beds was $1.02 billion and the new Pacific Medical Center with only 274 beds was $2.1 billion. Next comes the University of California at San Francisco Medical Center rebuild for an estimated $1.5 billion. None of these projects will expand the capacity of the hospitals--just make them withstand earthquakes.

That's one thing if those beds are in use. It's another if they are just going to sit empty waiting for the next pandemic in who knows how many years.

And yes, this pandemic will die away. Every pandemic in human history has. Before there were vaccines, everybody just got infected and the survivors were immune. Now some people can get vaccinated and can avoid infection. But one way or another enough people eventually become immune that the case loads decline and fade into the general background of human sickness.

Kngkyle Aug 21, 2021 6:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9372175)
Therefore, your protection depends on other people being masked and other people may not be sufficiently motivated to protect you unless the government or the proprietor tells them they have to.

No, my protection depends on the vaccine that was scientifically developed and proven to be effective.

Pedestrian Aug 21, 2021 6:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 9372121)
It's not hospital space that's necessarily the issue (you can get creative with where you put patients, put tents in parking lots, etc.), but we already have a shortage of health professionals and the ability to train them. So really, we should be expanding medical schools I guess...

As I've previously described, you can't expand medical schools without expanding academic medical centers and the teaching staff for them. And, again, it would be incredibly expensive. The median cost to the student of 4 years of medical school is $250,000 but that, surprisingly, isn't what the training actually costs to provide. I wasn't able to find the estimated actual cost of providing this education but I did find an estimate of the cost of post-graduate training (and in a sense that might be cheaper since residents earn their keep to some extent by providing patient care):

Quote:

. . . our estimated actual costs, which ranged from $181,737 per internal medicine resident in large inpatient intensive programs to $209,999 per internal medicine resident in small outpatient intensive programs
https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002...14)00596-8/pdf

These are annual costs in 2014.

Pedestrian Aug 21, 2021 6:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kngkyle (Post 9372181)
No, my protection depends on the vaccine that was scientifically developed and proven to be effective.

Your best protection depends on both and if you were vaccinated several months ago the vaccine is probably not much more than 80% effective. Being in an environment where everyone is masked adds an increment to that (no one is sure how large an increment but just about all epidemiologist and virologists--follow the science, remember--agree it's something).

I'll never understand why you and people like you insist that one and only one means of protection is good enough when there are additive layers of protection that can be used and they aren't that hard.

If you chose to be stubborn, fine, but I want the city or management to keep you out of stores where I have to shop because there's some chance you will infect me.

I am more sympathetic to urbanpolitician's argument now that he wants to get infected because he assumes the infection will be mild and he will have stronger immunity afterwards. That's actually true and if you want to go around unmasked trying to get infected, have at it. I even considered that if I get infected, at least there's this upside. But I don't think you have the right to infect others as you might do if allowed in stores and other places without a mask. Some of the people in those stores might have immune compromise or other wise be especially vulnerable as well.

JManc Aug 21, 2021 6:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 9372186)
Your best protection depends on both and if you were vaccinated several months ago the vaccine is probably not much more than 80% effective. Being in an environment where everyone is masked adds an increment to that (no one is sure how large an increment but just about all epidemiologist and virologists--follow the science, remember--agree it's something).

I'll never understand why you and people like you insist that one and only one means of protection is good enough when there are additive layers of protection that can be used and they aren't that hard.

If you chose to be stubborn, fine, but I want the city or management to keep you out of stores where I have to shop because there's some chance you will infect me.

I am more sympathetic to urbanpolitician's argument now that he wants to get infected because he assumes the infection will be mild and he will have stronger immunity afterwards. That's actually true and if you want to go around unmasked trying to get infected, have at it. I even considered that if I get infected, at least there's this upside. But I don't think you have the right to infect others as you might do if allowed in stores and other places without a mask. Some of the people in those stores might have immune compromise or other wise be especially vulnerable as well.

Then you get a booster when they're available...which I intend to. Asking everyone to wear a mask indefinitely is not the solution and I am glad all but a handful of virtue signaling cities haven't slid back into these mandates. I think people like my mother and mother-in-law should probably wear them in public with Delta on the rampage but at their own discretion. I see this dragging on well into next year. Today it's Delta, tomorrow, it will be Lambda or something else and goal posts are constantly being moved.


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