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pbenjamin Jul 26, 2011 8:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan (Post 5359687)
Central was indeed a main thoroughfare in and out of downtown...in fact Central (originally named Centre Street) was designed to be THE main thoroughfare.

Center Street.

westbev93 Jul 26, 2011 8:56 PM

Before the days of the 51, 7th St. was THE thoroughfare into and out of downtown. In many ways, it still is. Hence, the reversible lanes that people don't want to get rid of.

Most of 7th St. predates the 1950's? I guess so as long as you are south of McDowell. If you are merely advocating to reduce 7th south of I-10, then I guess I misunderstood the scope of what you were talking about. I could see the reduced 7th St. happening south of I-10 actually happening. I still don't understand why that would be a focus when there are ample opportunities to develop pedestrian-friendly neighborhoods and business districts between 7th St. and Ave. that would not require a huge fight at City Hall with a bunch of people living in Desert Ridge or Moon Valley or Ahwatukee or Arcadia.

phxSUNSfan Jul 26, 2011 9:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbenjamin (Post 5359705)
Center Street.


It actually was Centre Street. The link I posted includes some information and the original name... ;)

phxSUNSfan Jul 26, 2011 9:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westbev93 (Post 5359708)
Before the days of the 51, 7th St. was THE thoroughfare into and out of downtown. In many ways, it still is. Hence, the reversible lanes that people don't want to get rid of.

Most of 7th St. predates the 1950's? I guess so as long as you are south of McDowell. If you are merely advocating to reduce 7th south of I-10, then I guess I misunderstood the scope of what you were talking about. I could see the reduced 7th St. happening south of I-10 actually happening. I still don't understand why that would be a focus when there are ample opportunities to develop pedestrian-friendly neighborhoods and business districts between 7th St. and Ave. that would not require a huge fight at City Hall with a bunch of people living in Desert Ridge or Moon Valley or Ahwatukee or Arcadia.

Thought we were only talking about downtown here? I didn't mean to imply ALL of 7th Street; that would be impossible. Also if you read the history on streets in Phoenix, Centre St (Central) was the main arterial along with Grand, Washington/Jefferson, and Fillmore. Those streets also explain why the old street cars in Phoenix traversed routes in between them; there was no rail on Centre but there was on 3rd St. and 5th Ave for instance. 7th Street was later developed as an arterial; that took place after the 50's.

I don't think there would be any conflict with suburban residents regarding downtown streets. If anything it would only require input from neighborhoods and those "urban village" planning committees that are impacted by the changes.

westbev93 Jul 26, 2011 9:14 PM

Even if the changes occurred only on 7th adjacent to downtown, I'm pretty sure that would still have go before the full Council at a meeting. That's when the suburban types will come to complain because it may take them longer to see the Dbacks or Suns, as will the usual suspects who object to every single thing that happens regardless of where it happens.

phxSUNSfan Jul 26, 2011 9:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westbev93 (Post 5359738)
Even if the changes occurred only on 7th adjacent to downtown, I'm pretty sure that would still have go before the full Council at a meeting. That's when the suburban types will come to complain because it may take them longer to see the Dbacks or Suns, as will the usual suspects who object to every single thing that happens regardless of where it happens.

Agree to disagree... :cheers:

plinko Jul 26, 2011 9:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan (Post 5359729)
I don't think there would be any conflict with suburban residents regarding downtown streets. If anything it would only require input from neighborhoods and those "urban village" planning committees that are impacted by the changes.

This is incredibly naive. Look at the amount of input the City got with regard to the reverse lanes. You think people in Moon Valley weren't interested?

Central was once the main thoroughfare into downtown Phoenix, but it hasn't been for about 50 years or so. The 7s are (and will continue to be for at least another generation), commuter roads.

Trying to advocate for retail to the 7s when it barely has a pulse at Central and Washington is foolish. The city needs organic growth downtown absolutely, but leapfrogging will only serve to hurt the progress. Downtown will continue to be just a series of disparate parts, rather than a cohesive place. Join the fledgling pieces that already exist first, then worry about how to address the periphery.

phxSUNSfan Jul 26, 2011 9:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plinko (Post 5359760)
This is incredibly naive. Look at the amount of input the City got with regard to the reverse lanes. You think people in Moon Valley weren't interested?

Central was once the main thoroughfare into downtown Phoenix, but it hasn't been for about 50 years or so. The 7s are (and will continue to be for at least another generation), commuter roads.

Trying to advocate for retail to the 7s when it barely has a pulse at Central and Washington is foolish. The city needs organic growth downtown absolutely, but leapfrogging will only serve to hurt the progress. Downtown will continue to be just a series of disparate parts, rather than a cohesive place. Join the fledgling pieces that already exist first, then worry about how to address the periphery.

I am not advocating retail on 7th; that wouldn't be the job of the city anyhow. But the city is responsible for creating the "bones" in this region of town. They should create a streetscape that would facilitate future development while benefiting the current needs of residents; which would be to provide respite from the heat island and creating a livable environment which includes adding pedestrian friendly arterial streets for a growing downtown population.

It would also establish a "gateway" into downtown. A nice green street with walkability is a great selling point for tourists, business, etc. It would reverberate throughout the small downtown. The reversible lane "debacle" wasn't as big of an issue as you are making it out to be. How many people actually responded to the change and attended meetings; out of 1.4 million, probably a few hundred if that...

Also, I remember when light rail was first advocated for Central the biggest complaint was that it would negatively impact car traffic since Central was a main thoroughfare. People complained that no one would use the light rail and that traffic would back up for miles. Anyway, this conversation is an interesting one, but we all know there is no immediate case or movement to put 7th Street on a road diet.

Interestingly, I've noticed that 3th Street/5th Street are often backed up more so than 7th Street before and after downtown events and games...

westbev93 Jul 26, 2011 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan (Post 5359744)
Agree to disagree... :cheers:

We can agree to disagree on whether it would happen. But you cannot agree to disagree on whether a road diet on 7th St. would require full Council action. This would go through the community comment process in conjunction with all the requisite studies. And then through the appropriate Village Planning Committee. And then through Planning Commission. And then through the Council.

Every single lunatic throughout Phoenix would have an opportunity to oppose this just like the reversible lane issue. Obviously nowhere near 1.4 million people ever commented but it still didn't mean goodbye to the reversible lanes. You think a road diet on 7th St. between, say, I-10 and Jefferson wouldn't bring out the same objectors?

I'm all for what you are advocating. I agree that we should fight urban heat islands and create pedestrian friendly arterial streets. But if you think this stuff just happily goes through City Hall you are, as noted below, incredibly naive.

phxSUNSfan Jul 26, 2011 10:10 PM

That it would need full council approval is different than how many Phoenix residents would actually care or oppose changes to Central City streets. For all intents and purposes, while downtown is an employment center, it is a very small one and very few of the working population come into downtown. The percentage of the population that comes for events and games is also small. Nonetheless, many are choosing to come downtown on light rail which would (when needed) be a strong argument for road diets in downtown. The loudmouth NIMBY's are just that, loudmouth and very few. Which speaks to the backbone of our elected officials.

HooverDam Jul 26, 2011 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan (Post 5359729)

I don't think there would be any conflict with suburban residents regarding downtown streets. If anything it would only require input from neighborhoods and those "urban village" planning committees that are impacted by the changes.

I wish this were the case, but, its not. If you went to any of the meetings regarding the reversible lanes on the 7th you could see from jump street all the City cared about what traffic capacity and what people who lived in Moon Valley thought. Central City residents could fuck off if they wanted to walk safely up 7th Street to get a soda at Macalpine's, people who lived off Thunderbird Rd HAD to get to work 3 minutes sooner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan (Post 5359687)

This link contains some interesting history on Phoenix' historic streetscapes. It contains some interesting pictures of how downtown was designed to be very pedestrian friendly; including the 7's...
http://www.azhistory.net/streetsc/ph...rvationRpt.pdf

Ug, thanks for posting this, but its depressing. Just a quick skim through shows how much we've fucked up. While the City plan was never as unique or cool as say Savannah,GA's, it was still pretty well thought out. Plenty of public parks and squares, shady streets and every street would've looked somewhat similar to today's Bridle Path (not that you could really have that in a modern CBD though).

phxSUNSfan Jul 27, 2011 1:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 5359878)
I wish this were the case, but, its not. If you went to any of the meetings regarding the reversible lanes on the 7th you could see from jump street all the City cared about what traffic capacity and what people who lived in Moon Valley thought. Central City residents could fuck off if they wanted to walk safely up 7th Street to get a soda at Macalpine's, people who lived off Thunderbird Rd HAD to get to work 3 minutes sooner.

I've only made it to one meeting and you are right, which is why our elected officials need backbone in order to tell these suburbanites that the immediate need of downtown, the city, and business development overshadow their need for speed: The small increment in time they gain from having an extra lane in one direction shouldn't be important at all. Stanton seems to have the right mindset to overcome this suburban hurdle. The city really could just change the street without much conflict or input; they are doing it on N. Central and that was the case for light rail as well. Often a council member or two are apparatchiks for urban development and downtown resurgence. They need to be put in their place. Peggy Neely comes to mind in this sense. Also, we downtown residents need to voice our opinions just as loudly and consistently as suburbanites. This is something that is catching on and the downtown community is becoming more boisterous and tight-knit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam (Post 5359878)
Ug, thanks for posting this, but its depressing. Just a quick skim through shows how much we've fucked up. While the City plan was never as unique or cool as say Savannah,GA's, it was still pretty well thought out. Plenty of public parks and squares, shady streets and every street would've looked somewhat similar to today's Bridle Path (not that you could really have that in a modern CBD though).

You're right and why it is important to start returning the streetscapes (especially downtown) to their old model, emulating what was destroyed the last few decades. Looking down Central Ave in old photos is heartbreaking given the lovely old buildings that once lined the streets as far as one could see.

PhxDowntowner Jul 27, 2011 4:09 PM

i like this discussion. I'd also like to note that St Croix, urbanly horrific as it may be, creates more density than Artisan Village. I know a lot of people in these forums like to poopoo density, but density is an absolute linchpin for walkability.

Note that I'm not saying St Croix's density is enough to get it done - it's not. Eventually (30 yrs) it'll have to be torn down and replaced with something better. But same goes for Artisan Village.

westbev93 Jul 27, 2011 4:23 PM

This is good news if you like music. This should be more successful than the predecessor venue that was in this space:

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/upo...nnounces_c.php

PHX31 Jul 27, 2011 4:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westbev93 (Post 5360568)
This is good news if you like music. This should be more successful than the predecessor venue that was in this space:

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/upo...nnounces_c.php

I have had no knowledge of this story at all but this...:

"Stateside purchased the historic building, erected in 1917, just a few months ago. Renovations to renew its old-timey charm are currently under way as crews strip the paint and old sheetrock that cover Levy's vision of an authentically Phoenix venue."

...is amazing news!!!!! I love rehabilitation of historic buildings' facades! I'm going to patronize this place because of this.

I'm pretty sure this building was under construction not too long ago to become "Bentley's" (I think that was the name). It looked like it was going to be a restaurant.

westbev93 Jul 27, 2011 4:37 PM

It was going to be Bentley's. I think it was even open for an extremely short time.

Stateside Presents brings great bands to town so this should do well. Hopefully others follow suit and start revitalizing that area of Van Buren. It has some great warehouse space, is close to ASU, and would provide a nice link between Downtown and Grand Ave.

PHX31 Jul 27, 2011 4:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westbev93 (Post 5360583)
It was going to be Bentley's. I think it was even open for an extremely short time.

Stateside Presents brings great bands to town so this should do well. Hopefully others follow suit and start revitalizing that area of Van Buren. It has some great warehouse space, is close to ASU, and would provide a nice link between Downtown and Grand Ave.

Here's what the side of the building looks like... if they do the rehab right, it should be a pretty neat brick building.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/phxrep/new.jpg

Now we just need some more people to follow suit. There are several dozen buildings in and around downtown I can think of that need their sheet rock masks stripped off.

Vicelord John Jul 27, 2011 5:02 PM

things are starting to pop. Just as I thought, we got the chains and corporate places in Cityscape, now the organic development is starting to happen quickly.

PHX31 Jul 27, 2011 5:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX31 (Post 5360575)
"Stateside purchased the historic building, erected in 1917, just a few months ago. Renovations to renew its old-timey charm are currently under way as crews strip the paint and old sheetrock that cover Levy's vision of an authentically Phoenix venue."

Rethinking this a bit, i hope they are talking about the outside, but they may be talking just about the interior. Hopefully both. I wish I knew the guy's email address to ask him.

westbev93 Jul 27, 2011 5:26 PM

They have a facebook page you could probably ask through.


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