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Busy Bee Jan 6, 2022 3:37 PM

Well I guess that depends on perspective. I'm in my 30s so I sure as hell hope to see it in my lifetime. There's no reason a B-Q-Bx rapid service couldnt be in place within 15 years, it just takes political prioritization and funding. I think the entire Crossrail program has been planned and constructed in less time.

mrnyc Jan 6, 2022 3:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist (Post 9494870)
Speaking of transit to the outer boroughs, the Staten Island ferry is at auction for $100K, which seems like a pretty good deal!

https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/au...ew?auc=2955564


^ ahh so they retired the jfk? -- and you can buy it? haha cool, cool. :tup:


fyi -- they have three brand new s.i. ferry boats, the sandy ground, the michael h. ollis and still being built is the dorothy day. :tup:

we are about to move over there to staten by the end of the month, so i have to keep up with this news thanks! :)

Busy Bee Jan 6, 2022 3:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist (Post 9494870)
Speaking of transit to the outer boroughs, the Staten Island ferry is at auction for $100K, which seems like a pretty good deal!

https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/au...ew?auc=2955564

100K lol... It woild probably take 50 million to retrofit that into a private vessel. 100K almost seems like scrap value...with no takers so maybe that even too much. RIP JFK.

dchan Jan 6, 2022 4:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 9494840)
Yeah I actually dont doubt the ridership projections at all, what I doubt is the operational feasibility of a Hell Gate crossing. You know sometimes you gotta just build a tunnel. That outta be on the wall of MTA leadership.

I agree. Imagine how much faster and more service you'll get from the Manhattan Bridge lines (B, D, Q, N) if the MTA built a tunnel and smoothed out the geometry & track configurations from the Atlantic Terminal stations.

Busy Bee Jan 6, 2022 5:12 PM

^MTA could easily poor a couple billion into track geometry and ride smoothing. Of course there's always split bogies.

jmecklenborg Jan 7, 2022 2:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9494815)
in the meantime, there is no reason not to focus on the 18 total proposed stations and get to work for the phase one brooklyn section and then the phase two queens section.

^And therein lies a big part of the problem - all of the stations. Unless there is some sort of express service on the new line, it'll be competing with the express trains that travel long distances beneath Manhattan without stopping.

Conceivably, in the full build-out, there could be express tracks in Queens that would allow no stops between The Bronx and Brooklyn (except, perhaps, LGA), but I haven't heard any news of that sort.

ardecila Jan 7, 2022 3:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 9494272)
...doesn't really have the space for 2 dedicated tracks for Amtrak, 2 dedicated tracks for Metro-North plus another 2 for a subway based service (plus the FRA might make them build a bunch of intrusion barriers whereas they will probably get a waver for the Bay Ridge branch due to low usage...

A Triboro service sharing tracks with mainline Metro-North is a non-starter, no serious transport professional would advocate for such a thing which is why I always found the notion of a Triboro service crossing the Hell Gate so perplexing. Unless the Triboro rolling stock is built to mainline specs like M-N and LIRR, which it won't and makes little to no sense to do so...

I actually think this will be a mainline rail operation, not built to subway standards. Given the space constraints along the Bay Ridge branch and the tie-in to the Cross-Harbor Tunnel, the easiest thing will be to run a mixed operation of passenger and freight on a 3-4 track line. Passenger service would get priority but the 3rd/4th track would be priority freight and expanded freight ops at night. Supposedly the operating model is the London Overground.

I'm not sure who would operate the line, LIRR makes the most sense since they already own portions of the line and they have the organization to run a railroad, but they would have to be browbeaten into offering free subway transfers without a stiff transfer fare. LIRR also has one of the highest operating costs per passenger-mile in the US, maybe the highest.

This actually seems like a slam dunk if they can make it happen because most of the transfers to radial subway lines are right there. In Chicago if you tried to build a line along the Belt, all the stops are 1/4 mile away at least. But along the Bay Ridge Branch the longest walk to an intersecting station is only ~700' at Brooklyn College.

mrnyc Jan 7, 2022 5:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg (Post 9496018)
^And therein lies a big part of the problem - all of the stations. Unless there is some sort of express service on the new line, it'll be competing with the express trains that travel long distances beneath Manhattan without stopping.

Conceivably, in the full build-out, there could be express tracks in Queens that would allow no stops between The Bronx and Brooklyn (except, perhaps, LGA), but I haven't heard any news of that sort.

problem? manhattan? express trains? wat? :shrug:

triboro rx is a local loop connector service for brooklyn and queens and eventually the bronx (and i have seen a staten island tunnel idea too, but is really livin' a dream).
anyway, its a crosstown boro service targeted for those residents.
in other words, its just like the G train.

also, the phase three bx section will not be able to come along for a long, long time, so that part not worth worrying over now whatsoever.
this is why hochul wants to move on it and at least the first two phases, which can be done now.
i suppose they could build out some express service along the way on the route, but that is really not the point of it.

dchan Jan 7, 2022 8:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9496177)
problem? manhattan? express trains? wat? :shrug:

Yeah, I can't think of a single express line going from BK to Queens or Bronx that skips the majority of its stops in Manhattan.

k1052 Jan 7, 2022 9:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 9496071)
I'm not sure who would operate the line, LIRR makes the most sense since they already own portions of the line and they have the organization to run a railroad, but they would have to be browbeaten into offering free subway transfers without a stiff transfer fare. LIRR also has one of the highest operating costs per passenger-mile in the US, maybe the highest.

Would be a total NY move to build a very useful rail line and turn it over to the worst railroad on the planet who will run it terribly at great expense charing fares people won't pay.

ardecila Jan 7, 2022 9:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 9496493)
Would be a total NY move to build a very useful rail line and turn it over to the worst railroad on the planet who will run it terribly at great expense charing fares people won't pay.

The fares charged for Interboro is a political decision. It doesn't hit many activity centers on its own (mostly residential areas), it's only useful as a transfer to other subway lines so I imagine that will drive a lot of the fare policy.

As far as LIRR, yeah it sucks but who else would run it? NYCTA has no experience running or maintaining a mainline rail system. Metro-North could do it, but it's far outside their territory. A whole new agency would require creating one more redundant bureaucracy and management structure. LIRR at least has trained crews who can maintain tracks, power systems and rolling stock and they have existing shops and facilities that are proximate to the Bay Ridge branch.

k1052 Jan 7, 2022 9:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 9496500)
The fares charged for Interboro is a political decision. It doesn't hit many activity centers on its own (mostly residential areas), it's only useful as a transfer to other subway lines so I imagine that will drive a lot of the fare policy.

As far as LIRR, yeah it sucks but who else would run it? NYCTA has no experience running or maintaining a mainline rail system. Metro-North could do it, but it's far outside their territory. A whole new agency would require creating one more redundant bureaucracy and management structure. LIRR at least has trained crews who can maintain tracks, power systems and rolling stock and they have existing shops and facilities that are proximate to the Bay Ridge branch.

I'm legit tempted to let NYCTA try because I really doubt it could be worse than LIRR but the latter is almost definitely going to be tasked with it.

Busy Bee Jan 7, 2022 10:59 PM

I've been rather busy and haven't been able to respond to the previous comments to-day, but plan to. I just wanted to quickly say that along with putting the cart in front of the proverbial horse, this conversation about who will operate this service is being looked at all wrong. You cannot look at the Bay Ridge branch as a corridor the service will be operating ON, IN or OVER. I believe what will be the case is a 2 track system SHARING the branch ROW but not sharing the branch, if that makes sense. Whether that means a freight track just on the other side of a short fence, a sheet pile wall or a twelve foot concrete wall, whatever, I think the goal is to create an isolated system just like any other metro, including the NY subway. This is logical for any number of reasons. Also, remember that the Sea Beach Line already shares a short section of the row and a short interlining with it is possible. I will address this opinion further later but I actually believe this will be a NYCT subway line, built to subway standards, with maybe a modified B division scaled vehicle, hopefully very modern in appearance, not stainless (!), and automated (!!), and no I don't just think this because I'm obsessed with this service having the route bullet (X) lol. I don't see any evidence that this corridor would REQUIRE mainline specifications for any reasons, and fully expect either corridor fencing or wall, paired with possible freight movements relegated to overnight hours (but probably not even that) to be enough to get FRA sign-off. LIRR doesn't want to operate a half orbital distributive metro service completely within city limits on a branch they abandoned decades ago, that's just not happening, nor would they likely be any good at it.

More to come, gottta go.

jmecklenborg Jan 10, 2022 5:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dchan (Post 9496415)
Yeah, I can't think of a single express line going from BK to Queens or Bronx that skips the majority of its stops in Manhattan.

The 4 and 5 each have 9 stops in Manhattan. The 6 (local) has 20, and doesn't travel south of City Hall.

The D skips 18 stops between its terminus in The Bronx and where it branches from the N,R in Brooklyn.

mrnyc Jan 10, 2022 2:08 PM

triboro rx would be another line on the subway, not commuter rail.
an intra-city commuter line doesn't make logistical sense and its not the purpose of this crosstown boro service.

mrnyc Jan 11, 2022 3:50 PM

gov hochul wants janno lieber to remain the official head honcho of mta:


Hochul officially nominates Janno Lieber for top MTA job

By Kevin Duggan
Posted on January 9, 2022


Governor Kathy Hochul officially nominated Metropolitan Transportation Authority acting Chairperson and CEO Janno Lieber to keep his job at the top of the state-controlled transit agency.

The governor also tapped New York Building Congress Chairperson Elizabeth Velez for a seat on the MTA’s 21-member board, according to the Saturday announcement.

https://www.amny.com/transit/hochul-...r-top-mta-job/


https://www.amny.com/wp-content/uplo...o-1200x891.jpg
MTA acting Chairperson and CEO Janno Lieber and Gov. Kathy Hochul hold a press conference in the tunnels of the Second Avenue Subway expansion on Nov. 23, 2021.
Marc A. Hermann / MTA

Busy Bee Jan 11, 2022 5:49 PM

Great news...I like Janno a lot and as competent as Andy Byford was I just am not sure he could transcend the culture gap* like Janno can. Who am I kidding, Cuomo drove him away.

*the "culture culture" kind, not the "how to run a railroad" kind.

ardecila Jan 12, 2022 7:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 9496661)
I've been rather busy and haven't been able to respond to the previous comments to-day, but plan to. I just wanted to quickly say that along with putting the cart in front of the proverbial horse, this conversation about who will operate this service is being looked at all wrong. You cannot look at the Bay Ridge branch as a corridor the service will be operating ON, IN or OVER. I believe what will be the case is a 2 track system SHARING the branch ROW but not sharing the branch, if that makes sense. Whether that means a freight track just on the other side of a short fence, a sheet pile wall or a twelve foot concrete wall, whatever, I think the goal is to create an isolated system just like any other metro, including the NY subway. This is logical for any number of reasons. Also, remember that the Sea Beach Line already shares a short section of the row and a short interlining with it is possible. I will address this opinion further later but I actually believe this will be a NYCT subway line, built to subway standards, with maybe a modified B division scaled vehicle, hopefully very modern in appearance, not stainless (!), and automated (!!), and no I don't just think this because I'm obsessed with this service having the route bullet (X) lol. I don't see any evidence that this corridor would REQUIRE mainline specifications for any reasons, and fully expect either corridor fencing or wall, paired with possible freight movements relegated to overnight hours (but probably not even that) to be enough to get FRA sign-off. LIRR doesn't want to operate a half orbital distributive metro service completely within city limits on a branch they abandoned decades ago, that's just not happening, nor would they likely be any good at it.

More to come, gottta go.

There are many very good reasons to build this as part of the mainline rail network and not as an isolated subway line. Perhaps the biggest one is space along the corridor, to provide the most flexibility for passenger and freight service it makes sense for a 3-track buildout where freight can use all 3 tracks off-peak going down to 1 track during peak periods, and passengers can use 2 tracks at all times. Separating the two means you need significant sections of 4 or even 5 track, since the freight service would need its own passing and storage sidings, which runs into costly problems with retaining walls, land acquisition and the jet fuel pipeline that runs beneath the 4th trackway.

The 2nd reason is for future extensions. Hochul's plan also includes the Cross Harbor Tunnel, which can be used for passenger service to Staten Island and the North Shore if and only if Interboro is also built to mainline specs. The same goes for the Hell Gate Line at the other end. For now Amtrak is putting the kibosh on using Hell Gate for Interboro so it can't have a Bronx connection, but that could change with different Amtrak leadership. Would be great if MTA didn't also erect a huge technological barrier to that future extension.

mrnyc Jan 14, 2022 3:39 PM

^ a tunnel to staten aint happening anytime soon and instead of hellgate more likely a new bridge and widening will be needed for the eventual/long term bronx section to co-op city.


triboro rx / interborough express rail line plan history -- and why no bx for now:



From tri-borough to inter-borough: What about the Bronx?


By Aliya Schneider
Posted on January 13, 202



While Queens and Brooklyn residents dreamed of easier public transit at the unveiling of the Interborough Express, Bronxites who know the origins of the proposal weren’t so impressed.


Gov. Kathy Hochul announced the Interborough Express in her State of the State address on Jan. 5 and directed the MTA to begin an environmental review. The project would utilize the existing Bay Ridge Branch freight rail line, to connect Brooklyn and Queens residents to up to 17 subway lines and the Long Island Rail Road.


But what Hochul’s speech and press release didn’t mention is that the proposal had already long existed as the Triboro, which connected the two boroughs to the east Bronx.



more:

https://www.bxtimes.com/from-tri-bor...inter-borough/


the two previous triboro rx plans:


2013
https://www.bxtimes.com/wp-content/u...ap-700x690.png


1996
https://www.bxtimes.com/wp-content/u...PA-582x700.jpg

mrnyc Jan 16, 2022 6:33 PM

revel bails on the bronx
due to crime
because they can:


Revel’s Bronx exit proves tech can’t save cities — but public safety will

By Nicole Gelinas
January 16, 2022 12:58pm Updated

more:
https://nypost.com/2022/01/16/revels...t-save-cities/


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