It's not that the article is too late, the option (which won't happen) of building on the Javits site is now on the table.


Governor Christie killed the idea that was already in the ground for a new station directly next to Penn.


One of the reasons even the Farley site was seemed just a bit out of the way to the Dolans was it further removes the site from the subways. In New York, it's all about convenience. Moving all of those passengers a block east just recreates the problem in the opposite direction. It's great to have some service there, but not all. And you would still need to move the Garden to unlock some of that development potential. I think of Grand Central, the success that area has had, and the plans the City is thinking about implementing there to further cement that area as a top business district in not only the City, but the world. Penn Station deserves no less.

That's the idea behind Amtrak's Gateway proposal that went over like a lead balloon last year.

Yes, bringing natural light down to the tracks was one of the hallmarks of the station. The concourse had a glass roof and the floor directly above the tracks also contained glass block to let in as much light as possible. Also, large areas on the northeast and southeast sides of the original building were open to the air.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/de...0/4a19909v.jpg

The final desitnation for most people arriving at Penn Station is to the east. If you move the entrance to the platforms to the west, you're going to increase walking time.

The Farley building makes sense as a entrance for Amtrak passengers who are going on longer journeys. If you're taking a 3 1/2 hour train ride, walking another 5 minutes from Seventh to Eighth Avenues is not going to affect you. However, if you're taking a 30 minute ride on a suburban train every day, that five additional minutes of walk time is a big deal.

Also, the Farley Annex does not lie above the existing platforms like the main part of the Farley building does, so you cannot access the platforms from it.

If they could build something at Penn like the cavernous RER stations or the Madrid Sol station (large underground cavern), the experience would be far better. Just blast a cavern deep around the platforms/tracks that would be raised in the middle and accessed by escalator. Without moving the garden, a major underground cathedral to transport is the best they could aim for.

Go DEEP young man, LOL! The only way is down.

Well, the oppurtunity was there a few years ago, but the costs bogged things down to the point where we would be lucky to get Moynihan completed sooner rather than later.
The first phase alone is expected to take about 4 to 5 years.


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No, the opportunity is gone now because the city blew it. They didn't do enough to intice Dolan out of there which was a massive failure IMO. The garden won't move for at least 20 years I'm sure given the investment... that is why I said, think of something else to improve Penn. Make it a huge underground cavern. If you can't go up, go down. There is no other way now to create a decent commuter station. Monyihan station seems to be a mickey-mouse solution for Amtrak and doesn't solve the Penn problem now at all IMO.

Also, not being able to complete a small head-house station like Monyihan in a decade + is a blasphemy. Any other civilized developed country can build a new station within 5 years. Look at London. This country really has declined, it can no longer do big things. Thank God Europe can do something relatively quickly when it sets its mind to build. We'll all be old men before this country produces anything decent in the sphere of transportation. And if the Republicans win this year, good night for transit funding!!! That's when I say adios.

Given the very low probability that MSG is going anywhere for a good 20-30 years maybe it's time to seriously consider through routing to the lower level of GCT or the East Side access for both Amtrak and NJT. The lower level of GCT has a bunch of unused track and platform space.

I don't think that is possible. No connection to GCT for NJT. Amtrak uses overhead so does NJT, GCT uses third rail.

I mean turn the unused lower level platforms into a terminal for NJT/Amtrak. The power systems don't have to be compatable for NJT since that would be the end of the line. Some Amtrak Genesis locomotives already have 3rd rail shoes for Penn Station...shouldn't be that terribly difficult to figure out a way to switch to under running when stopped so they can proceed up MNRR territory.

Power supply isn't an issue. You can easily install multiple systems along the same tracks. The East River Tunnels have both catenary (for Amtrak and NJT) and third rail (for LIRR) as do several tracks at Penn that are shared by LIRR and NJT. The same could be easily done at GCT.

The obstacle to building a tunnel between Penn Station and GCT is the proximity to Water Tunnel Number 1 which, if damaged during construction, would be catastrophic to the city. There's also a lot of other infrastructure in the way that a connecting tunnel would have to carefully wend its way around. Not impossible, but very difficult.

Water Tunnel No 1 is going to be shut down around 2020 for major repair/rebuild once Water Tunnel No 3 is complete. The case was made previously (during the ARC debacle) for that being the best window of opportunity to connect Penn and GCT without risking the city's water supply. The bulk of the construction work could be accomplished by then leaving only the most delicate work by the water tunnel for last.

Presumably there is going to be another Hudson River tunnel well before Penn Station is rebuilt in a more useful form so I think this makes the most sense in the interim since Penn is out of platform capacity. Even though the ESA will free up slots it's not going to be enough for the next several decades it's going to take to get rid of MSG.

There is only so much the city or state could do, short of eminent domain, and that would be HARD to argue in this case. Dolan also didn't want to move because of issues regarding signage on the 8th Ave side, which is to remain open as a post office, and is significant in its own right. Bitter over the stadium fight, Bloomberg also planned to remove the tax break, which was supposed to be temporary, from MSG.

But while we're talking about what could have been, another blast from the past...

http://www.richardmeier.com/www/#/pr...tates/2/363/0/


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Thanks for the pics but it is a bit sad to look at them :(

Looking at past plans won't help us. We need to think of a new way to improve Penn now, given what is happening today. If the garden doesn't move, what is the best way to improve Penn? I say gut the station and modernize it. Remove some retail locations and make it more spacious. Since it is obvious that my idea of buying adjacent lots for a new head house won't work because the walk to the tracks would be longer, something else has to be looked for the next 20+ years. The whole place is too crowded. Taking Amtrak out would help free up space at least.

Also, can someone please explain how GCT could be used for acela and NJT trains?

ALso, it is a shame that the post office remains and can't move. The farley should be all amtrak.

The image below probably shows it best. It's one of the alternates studied during the EIR process that resulted in the now-canceled ARC tunnel to the stub-end terminal below 34th Street. This alternate was favored by transit advocates and hopefully will come back at some point, once Water Tunnel Number 1 can be taken out of service.

Everything in green is what's proposed. They're showing a new tunnel under 31st Street and Park Avenue connecting tracks 1-4 of Penn Station to tracks 105-112 of GCT.

http://www.nj-arp.org/arc_altg.gif
http://www.nj-arp.org/arc4.html

The New Gateway Project will have tail tracks that will extend past the New Penn station towards GCT which would be the next expansion project probably happen in the late 2020s if the Gateway Project starts now which its looking more likely....the Problem is there is very little room at GCT NJT or Amtrak so a new terminal would be needed.

Sadly, not too much will help us because there's no money for most of it. As far as improving Penn Station though, the Farley extension (the post office will have a minor presence there, the lobby on the 8th Ave side) will relieve some of the congestion. I just left the place not too long ago, and even the pre-rush hour crowds are a bit much. It is dangerously overcrowded, particularly on the lower level where there are not many exits. That should be the main goal of any improvement there - quick exits from that lower concourse. Having daylight reach the tracks is fine, but not a necessity.

As far as Grand Central goes, Amtrak used to run trains out of there, and currently the Long Island Railroad is on course with the opening of the "East Side Access" that will allow commuters the options of going to either Grand Central or Penn Station. As far as getting NJ Transit extended to Grand Central though, I wouldn't expect it in this generation. Maybe something could be done in conjunction with the 2nd Ave subway extension, but I doubt it. What the City is looking at now is the possibility of extending the 7 line into Secaucus. That in turn would connect NJ Transit trains with not only the west side, but Grand Central, the east side, and beyond (Queens). And it would be no different than what many commuters do now anyway, changing at Newark or Hoboken to PATH trains for more direct service.

This is the closest thing we're going to get to an OLD Penn Station. BUT still not close as this was built as a POST OFFICE and Penn Station (old) was built as a TRANSPORTATION HUB.

The plan to move MSG to the far westside is a good one. MSG is a black hole on the grid. In the new location it'll be fed by the west side highway and the brand new 7 station. Javits is another black hole. It makes a lot of sense to build a convention center closer to JFK. It might mean more infrastructure and development for the airport. Maybe in the long term it'll mean a direct connection from JFK to Manhattan.

Of course this is all fantasy, so why not hire Robert Stern to design a station over the current Penn Station? 15CPW is a palace for the 1%, why not give the 99% a palace of their own.

Yes it is a good one. All this could happen sooner then we think despite the renovation. The air rights that MSG sits on a valuable, and if the economy were ever to boom again the Dolans might get a sweet deal that would be too hard to turn down. I'm dreaming though.:jester:

Afteral, this is like the 3 or 4th renovation of this arena. I think everything depends on the economy and how much those air rights mean to developers and how well the renovation is received. I think we'll see other development around Penn first though, that would establish it as another business hub. Then the demand for MSG rights might skyrocket if more good office space is required and other areas are built out. This would probably be 15+ years away. If the renovation is seen as average or uninspiring compared to the new arena in Brooklyn, that might push redevelopment too.

If the economy hadn't collapsed, the deal might have been done. So sad.

Another idea. How about closing a bunch of small cross streets blocks to traffic that are above concourses underground. Then you could have some kind of glass roof to open the station to the light?

Some scope has been pulled out of Phase I, although if you read the whole article, it doesn't seem so dire.

WSJ Article

What a joke.

Anyway, at least we know that Bloomie would rather spend billions on connecting NJ with NY then fixing Penn or something that would be of real value to NYers.

Connecting NJ with NY? That would be Penn Station. The Plan to get subway service from NJ to Manhattan also would be of "real value", as it would get more cars off the roads, creating less congestion in Manhattan (as well as Penn Station itself). It also would have the added bonus of creating service to Grand Central beyond just the West Side.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...106861834.html

What's lost in the conversation is the massive improvement or rebuilding of Penn Station itself that was supposed to be planned by the developer's in exchange for the development rights. Even when plans to put huge towers on site were abandoned, the developers still intended to rebuild or improve the station. The development rights are now supposed to be transfered to the surrounding area (due to MSG's not moving) but there is no resolution on that, so it remains to be seen how much if any the developers will put into rebuilding Penn Station. Meanwhile, when work commences on the 15 Penn Plaza development, the passageway that connects Penn Station to the PATH terminal and other subway lines a block away will be reopened and expanded, providing better circulation both above (street level) and below to the east. There is also talk of closing 33rd street to fraffic for a block or two west.

:hell:

The contractor should be entirely on the hook for major cost overruns.

Actually the Subway to Secaucus would do very little to get cars off the road considering its in the middle of nowhere surrounded by Highways. The Railways there cannot be expanded , if the Gateway plan to was pushed by bloomy that would mean we could expand the Regional Rail network.... But the 7 Subway means we can't , and it will encourage people to drive to Secaucus... Seeing how the Gateway just got engineering $$$ , its likely to get built before the 7 to NJ.... The MTA has no plans to extend the 7 to NJ , nor do they want too. The PA would block them , Tieing the project up for decades... NJT would also block them , they've done it in the past. Theres also the cost 7 Billion for 3 stops , that will never fly in this region...

Is there any information on how many passengers the 7-Secaucus connection might be expected to handle? The stations at Grand Central and Times Square already have an enormous amount of traffic at rush, I'm curious as to how much more the MTA thinks they can take without rebuilding / adding platforms and track.

I don't see any reason PA to want to block the project. The PA will be totally out of PATH expansion capacity without enormously expensive construction after the last round of signal upgrades are done in 2016 and they have WAY too many other projects that need funds.

NJT might be pinning it's hopes on Gateway but Christie obviously wants to keep his options open since a 7 connection would serve the area of Midtown around GCT and Gateway would not.

The 7 could be connected to Penn from the new 11th ave station. That might be a more efficient use of funds.

Actually, I would like to see the 7 to NJ, but not to the detriment of a proper HSR connection into NYC.

The PA controls all the crossings along the Hudson , they fund things aswell....if it will affect the PATH they will block it. They have in the past , theres also the rules and tax region that will make it hard for them to extend the 7 into NJ. Theres really no room for the 7 at Secaucus , they recent suggested the 7 be extended to Hoboken where NJT has capacity....the PA would probably not block that due to the extra ridership it would receive. Its also cheaper to go to Hoboken. As for Christie , hes all over the map , most New Jerseyites are against any tunnel into NY , they would rather see the $$$ in investing in Urban / Suburban Jersey.... Both the PATH and Flushing line are nearing Capacity , so building the Full Gateway Project will take pressure off both lines. The PA is milked for pet projects on both sides of the hudson , so it doesn't matter how many projects it has. The Gateway Phase 2 is to go to Grand Central , which would happen in the mid 2020s , if Phase 1 starts in the next 2 years....which seems likely...

Extend the 7 into Penn. Do the Gateway project.

IIRC, part of Gateway calls for extending the 7 to Penn instead of NJ.

That would be a good option. Link Penn & GCT.

The 7 to NJ is a waste of money then. The Gateway will allow for HSR on the NEC as well as benefit NJT. The 7 is just for NJ commuters and won't benefit as many people. Instead of the 7 to NJ, the mayor should link the LIRR with lower Manhattan.

Both NJ and NY see an MTA connection across the Hudson as beneficial (be it Secaucus or Hoboken). The PA would be hard pressed to obstruct a project that would enjoy favorable backing from both states, particularly if the PA itself isn't putting up the cash.

The Port Authority already has a ton of projects to do and nowhere near the money to do them all. A multi-billion dollar expansion of PATH is certainly not in the cards anytime soon.

The probability that Gateway Phase 1 will be completed in 2020 as originally suggested is remote to say the least.

Where does it say both NJ and NY , its less on the NY side , and its divided on the NJ side. Most New Jerseyites are against building lines into the city , they see it as taking jobs from Jersey....and they rather see $$ invested in Urban Jersey. Which is why you see support for Northern Branch LRT and Glassboro LRT , but not much for any line feeding NY. Although anything feeding Hoboken is alright. The PA only has one project and that's the WTC project , they keep saying they'll upgrade the Bridges , tunnels and PATH , but nothing is happening.... They won't even hand over there documents to prove there constructing something... NJT would object to anything that puts pressure on the network , so there opposed to the Secaucus option , they would be in support for Hoboken which is under capacity on both the PATH and NJT. The Gateway Project would benefit a larger section of this region and not just NJ , CT and NY could expand there networks.. The 7 Project cannot do that and encourages driving with the Secaucus option. Politicians in this region have a history of talking up a storm and doing nothing. Transit advocates , Fanners and Employees like me often know whats going to happen , and the facts here are the in its current setup it will be blocked.

I'm happy to hear that. It would be ideal to do both projects, but if only one can be done, I think the gateway project is the more prudent approach to the issue.

The MTA would be footing most of the bill (amount variable due to likely federal funding), Christie indicated that NJ would participate financially what that would look like is TBD. As far as limiting NJ-NY transit expansion to make NJ somehow more attractive to corporations...lol. The MTA has already invested billions in the ESA and not corporate business parks on Long Island for a reason. Businesses want to operate in NYC. Subway service to either Secaucus (which is horridly underused for how big it is) or Hoboken (where NJT has room to grow) would be making better use of NJT, not taking away from it.

The current PA capital plan includes about $5.5B in projects. Their wish list swells that to $25ish billion. None of which includes PATH expansion (actual construction) which already operates at capacity during rush and is increasingly shouldering more passengers due to toll increases. The signal project will up capacity some but it isn't going to accommodate another 10 years of growth.

I think at least parts of Gateway are going to happen and should but it's going to take a lot longer than proposed.

The MTA plans on extending service into Penn station via the Metro North lines after the ESA is completed and would need some more space opened up via the Gateway Project. lets look at the cost of the expansions... 8.7 Billion for 5 mile extension of the 7 line into NJ with maybe only 2 stations vs the 13-16 Billion Gateway Project which includes all the lines that would be allowed to be restored on the NJ side and added capacity and service on the NY side. The Gateway Project would allow for 9 lines to be restored on the NJ side with 64 stations.... The 7 Extension would not allow for this and it would delay this... Secaucus was overbuilt and badly , but there is also no room for Expansion in terms of Capacity , NJT can't turn around NEC trains on the NEC. No room for a loop track ,or Yard , so they have to go and use the Sunnyside Yard in Queens.... Even if you build a Subway to Secaucus it won't solve anything...it would make things worse... Ridership would only be 50-70,000 from what i'm hearing , for that much $$$ its better to build something on a Regional Scale. The Gateway Project and Regional Rail Expansions would service 450-500,000 Daily , including Amtrak expansions into PA and increased trains. Half of the Prep work for the Gateway is done already , making Major construction easier to do...

As for the PA , its corrupt , most of the $$$ pours into the WTC , not the PA projects its been audited recently.... The PATH rush hr is pretty short , at least in terms of crowds , only 30 trains are wall to wall.... which occurs from 5.30pm to 6.45pm...the rush hr starts on the PATH system between 4pm to 7pm.... The system can handle more then they let on , the system can handle more , the only problems are some of the station sizes... But the trains can safely handle the extra load. The Signal upgrade will allow for more trains which will reduce some of the station congestion and increase capacity up 350,000 if I recall correctly.

NJ and Urban Jersey are in a constant battle over NY stealing business and treating us badly , thus most New Jerseyites are against lines feeding into NY. Operating in NY is expensive so over the past 10 years Urban Jersey has sucked 50,000 jobs from NYC....were starting to win , and most New Jerseyites are realizing the value of investing in our Urban areas....

Yea , the 7 Extension makes no sense in the commuting sense. If you look at a map , Penn station has access to the 1,2,3 and A,C,E , and the Next stop north is 42nd Street. The Extension into NJ would add an estimated 20-30mins onto the journey ,the top speed on the subway is 65mph which is rarely hit , while Regional Rail under the Hudson hits 90mph.... Most people who take the train into Penn work around Penn station and Times SQ. Most Midtown bound NJ commuters use the bus , which is faster then the train and drops you off at 42nd street. The Core of Office Workers works around 42nd street to 63rd street which is along the N , Q , R , E , 4 , 5 & 6 lines. The 7 services nothing that big in terms of employment... The Gateway would also allow for Regional and Intercity rail expansions in NJ , PA , NY , CT and as far as DE , the 7 would not. Most Rail / Transit advocates while not against the extension see no value or need for it over the Gateway , the cost ratio is weaker on the 7 then Gateway. These plans like the 7 Extension and other Political crap come up every 5-10 years and go nowhere....due to the Politics of this region....

That's good, NJ's urban areas are wasted potential and need investment. However, if NY were to decline in global appeal and lose jobs, so would you given you are all intertwined. So I wouldn't think in these state vs state mentality, it is very negative and can only hurt the entire region in the long run. Just my two cents.:tup:

The Battle lines have already been drawn...and breached. The NYPD is now spying on NJ college Campuses... While I don't want NYC to loose power on the Global scene it needs to share some of the jobs.... Outside of NYC , its every city for itself , fighting like wild animals trying to lure any expanding corporate jobs. Its made this regions economy very weak , instead of powerful. Every city should have a healthy economy , with NYC having the powerhouse that drives the other cities. Instead NYC controls and hogs everything and you have cities like Newark , Elizabeth and Yonkers struggling to get by.

:previous:What needs to happen is more density in the outer suburbs of the city and increased transit . NYC also needs to develop as well, since the outer boroughs face the same problems the New Jersey region face. This would actually help the city in a global economic standpoint because it would have many financial districts to fall back on. But this can only work if the metro area continues to experience high growth. Manhattan is great and all,but it doesn't need to be the only powerhouse in Greater New York. There is great potential to make the whole region in that fashion.

The Inner ring Westchester and Northern NJ suburbs have redeveloped densely around train stations over the past 20 years. Recently Urban Jersey & Westchester , CT have been playing catch up to there dense suburban neighbors... Theres still alot of work to do , but you can finally sense change in the air. As for the Outer boroughs , Staten Island is more suburban then Neighboring Union and Hudson Counties which are dense Suburban / Urban ,there seems to be little effort to make them dense. Same with Urban Renewal in Eastern Queens and Southern Brooklyn , its slow... The South Bronx has recently started cleaning , maybe thats a sign of the poorer areas of this region changing?

I have no preference on if the a hypothetical 7 extension serves Secaucus or the Hoboken terminal, If one costs less than the other I'd be in favor of that alternative. The trains don't have to turn at SJ since they can just continue on to the Hoboken terminal and be turned there as usual.

PATH capacity is about 240K and will go up to 290K once the signal project is done. I'll repeat this again...past that the PA hasn't even hinted that they have any interest in doing major construction to PATH to raise capacity (longer stations/trains).

Trying to strangle commuting into NYC in order to promote companies doing business in NJ is certifiable in light of what the ESA is going to do to commuting patterns and the overall competitiveness of regions served by MNRR and LIRR who will have more and faster access to the core of the metro.

Oh boi....where to begin....

I never said the Hoboken bound trains had any issues , I said the NEC trains can't turn around.... The Commute into the City would be a 2 seat ride which is unpopular in this region , it would also add 20-30 mins onto the journey...

The PATH Capacity is 250k , will go up to 290-350k , although no one knows the actually truth and seeing how the PA lies or skews facts i'm willing to place capacity increases higher. The PA just got sued by a few people and is under a huge amount of pressure to ADA there Harrison station and Grove Street which was rebuilt in 2007 and not ADA'd. They've promised to redo both by 2020...of course they've been saying that since 2000. The PA is under alot of pressure to clean up there act ,so i do see it finally getting done. There currently replacing the walls of the Hoboken , Newport and Exchange Place PATH , and relocating the Newport substation....along with the signal upgrades...

I never said to strangle commuting into NY , but if where going to prioritize our Cross Hudson Projects we should build something that should serve the whole Northeastern US , not a tiny slice of Urban Jersey. The MNRR is more competitive and better run then the LIRR , its on the same level as NJT....both systems need capacity increases and system expansions....and the Gateway would allow this....

Penn itself is no NJT rider's final destination. They end up on the subway or bus routes to access midtown north of the station. Doing the 7 extension provides more capacity from the NJ side that doesn't have to be routed through Penn. All Hoboken and many Penn riders already have a 2 (or even 3) seat ride.

I already said that Gateway should be built but it hasn't been designed and has no funding commitments other than preliminary engineering studies. The 2020 completion that is talked about is wildly optimistic, more like 2030 assuming the money can be gotten.

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2012...n/?mod=WSJBlog

After Delay, Moynihan Station Meets the Bidders

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/im...0302162906.jpg

By Ted Mann
March 2, 2012

Hey guys, I'm doing work on Phase 2 of the MSG renovation and snapped some pictures on Tuesday night:

View from 300 Level Concourse with 300 Level Seating Sections Removed:
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1336/imag17591.jpg

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3203/imag17571.jpg



Looking Down From One of the Spot Lighting Platforms in the Ceiling:
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6637/imag17721.jpg



Inside the Attic Above the Ceiling - The Dustry Cylinder in the Middle is Directly Above the MSG Scoreboard and is a Water Tank to Collect From the Roof Drains Before Being Pumped Down to the Street:
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/7051/imag17741.jpg



Behind the 400 Level Seating for Removal of Decking on the 10th Floor:
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9232/imag17811.jpg



View From the old 400 Level:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8625/imag17831.jpg



Removal of Steel at the 10th Floor:
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3916/imag17851.jpg



View of Demolition From the Arena Floor:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5429/imag1795.jpg

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9823/imag1796.jpg

Whoa. Awesome update. Thanks for sharing.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...fic&id=8721631

LIRR planning Penn Station makeover

5/01/12

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TION/120709991

Penn Station makeover is finally in the works


By Andrew J. Hawkins @andyjayhawk
July 2, 2012

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