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Thundertubs May 2, 2011 4:23 AM

Will the new rerouted Elston and the old bypassed segment south of Fullerton both be called N. Elston Ave? I inquire because of addressing. Maybe the bypassed section becomes Elston Pl or something? Having two separate sections of N. Elston Ave in the same addressing range could tear a hole in Chicago's space-time continuum.

ardecila May 2, 2011 7:03 AM

Standard practice in most jurisdictions would be to rename the stump as "Old Elston Avenue". Chicago's only done the "Old" thing twice... Once at Lake Shore Drive/Michigan, where the highrise-lined local street is technically called "Old Lake Shore Drive East", and once out at O'Hare, where airport construction forced Higgins Road onto a new path... but the city was not responsible for this renaming, it just entered city limits via annexation.

Chicago is more likely to do Elston Place, as you suggest. That address actually sounds kinda distinguished...

denizen467 May 2, 2011 7:07 AM

^ In a similar vein, wasn't Wacker Place called South Water until just a decade or so ago? This was not a reroute or new construction; it was just a renaming. A confusing one, I would say. Anyone know the story?

denizen467 May 2, 2011 7:10 AM

Can I suggest that the left turn lane on southbound Damen, for vehicles waiting to enter the Fullerton intersection, be eliminated. (In fact, prohibit left turns there.) No one would ever use it (I'm assuming no businesses would be built that have driveways out onto that tiny segment of Damen), and the space could be used as an extra lane by eastbound Fullerton vehicles (especially semi trucks) seeking to make an essentially 315 degree left turn onto northwestbound Elston.

ardecila May 2, 2011 7:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denizen467 (Post 5262690)
^ In a similar vein, wasn't Wacker Place called South Water until just a decade or so ago? This was not a reroute or new construction; it was just a renaming. A confusing one, I would say. Anyone know the story?

It still is South Water Street east of Michigan. If you ask me, it should be unified as South Water, instead of the confusing name change halfway. Having Wacker Drive AND Wacker Place is more confusing than having a South Water that doesn't run next to the river.

Does anybody in this day and age actually expect a "Water Street" to run near a body of water? It might be confusing for foreign visitors, but who cares?

Quote:

Originally Posted by denizen467 (Post 5262692)
Can I suggest that the left turn lane on southbound Damen, for vehicles waiting to enter the Fullerton intersection, be eliminated. No one would ever use it (I'm assuming no businesses would be built that have driveways out onto that tiny segment of Damen), and the space could be used as an extra lane by eastbound Fullerton vehicles (especially semi trucks) seeking to make a 225 degree left turn onto northwestbound Elston.

Agreed, although any truck heading for one of the handful of industrial properties or big-boxes on Elston between Fullerton and Diversey should be getting off at the Diversey exit.

On a related note, I've always wondered why there aren't frontage roads connecting the disconnected offramps on the Kennedy into full diamond interchanges? Connecting the Diversey/California exits would seem to make a lot of sense, and it would relieve a lot of surface congestion.

denizen467 May 2, 2011 7:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 5262698)
It still is South Water Street east of Michigan. If you ask me, it should be unified as South Water, instead of the confusing name change halfway. Having Wacker Drive AND Wacker Place is more confusing than having a South Water that doesn't run next to the river.

Does anybody in this day and age actually expect a "Water Street" to run near a body of water? It might be confusing for foreign visitors, but who cares?

I agree about unifying it. I think it used to be unified, and then the little segment's name was changed to Wacker Place, IIRC. Mr Downtown or Viva or someone might know the history of it.

I think "South Water" would be no more confusing than other street names in very old cities, especially on the east coast, where major geographic changes (including landfill) have shifted water boundaries by 10s or 100s of yards, etc. So that, by itself, doesn't bother me.

But more broadly, I think both "North Water" and "South Water" are lousy street names, because they are generic and boring and because one could actually mistake them for northern and southern segments of a street called "Water". (Although I think the address of the Sheraton -- 301 Upper East North Water -- is pretty cool with all those coordinate adjectives.)

So really it's my preference that North Water and South Water both get renamed. I actually have a bunch of streets whose names I dislike and want renamed. Chicago Avenue is one of them -- unless there's some historical reason for it, it's too generic and the resulting subway station names are confusing to tourists. Maybe it'll get renamed Obama Boulevard one day. Or Oprah Boulevard, since she used to live on it.

ardecila May 2, 2011 8:32 AM

An easy way to resolve the conflict without destroying the history would be to eliminate the space, i.e. "Northwater" and "Southwater" Streets.

Then it would reside in the murky gray area like Desplaines Street, which is written as either one word or two (Des Plaines) depending on who you ask.

I think the short stretch of street between Wabash and Michigan has been Wacker Place since the 1920s when Wacker Drive was built. The first stage of Wacker went from Lake to Wabash IIRC, so the short stretch of South Water was renamed at that time in order to help route traffic from Michigan Avenue to the Wacker stub one block away. The section of Wacker from Wabash to Michigan was more complex, since it had to rise to the grade of the new Link Bridge on Michigan (2 levels above the water) so its construction took longer.

It's funny how the stages of the Wacker reconstruction project mirrored those of Wacker's initial construction.

Mr Downtown May 2, 2011 1:21 PM

East South Water was renamed Wacker Place in 1987, at the request of tenants of 65 E. South Water (and—cue the flashback music—the potential developer of the vacant lot next to the Chicago Motor Club Building). They were tired of people confusing them with South Water Market, whose name and even addresses had been moved to the area of West 14th Place near Racine when the produce market was relocated in 1925. Now that area is condos, and the street is again W. 14th Place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 5262686)
at Lake Shore Drive/Michigan, where the highrise-lined local street is technically called "Old Lake Shore Drive East"

I don't believe that's correct. Neither the city's street signs, paper atlas, nor GIS database show it that way. There's a reason old-timers referred to the "Outer Drive," but technically both roadways are named "Lake Shore Drive." It works the same way as a freeway frontage road.

ardecila May 2, 2011 6:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 5262825)
I don't believe that's correct. Neither the city's street signs, paper atlas, nor GIS database show it that way. There's a reason old-timers referred to the "Outer Drive," but technically both roadways are named "Lake Shore Drive." It works the same way as a freeway frontage road.

I was using the city's GIS zoning map as a master list of street names.

stevevance May 3, 2011 1:57 AM

I uploaded photos of the posters from the meeting to my Flickr.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5149/...1e57512b_t.jpg
Crash history at Damen-Elston-Fullerton by Steven Vance, on Flickr

RE: Parking meters
There's enough parking in off-street parking that the city would not need to provide on-street parking. As a non-traffic engineer, I don't believe two through lanes on Damen are necessary as Damen is not a two-lane street north and south of the project area, but the engineers at the meeting said it was necessary for queuing capacity and to "make it work like it's supposed to."

RE: Elston's name
The staff, including CDOT workers, said that the tinny, old stretch of Elston Avenue would remain Elston Avenue and the new part of Elston Avenue would get a new name. This was to retain the addresses for the businesses and homes that are not being removed from Elston Avenue.

RE: Removing southbound Damen left turn lane at Fullerton
I don't see a purpose to removing this. What would it be replaced with? A concrete median? The northbound turn lane it's shared with (for left turns onto NW-bound Elston) is still needed. And the signal cycle would still include a phase for the northbound turn lane onto Fullerton.

RE: Street names
There's another list for street names, and that's the City Clerk of Chicago's Street Guide.
  • Lake Shore Drive (E) 1000 N, 140 N to 299 N [this doesn't make any sense]
  • Lake Shore Drive (N&S) 0, 5699 N to 6245 S
There are no streets called Inner or Outer Drive in the guide. I also checked the City's GIS centerline shapefile and found no indication of an Inner or Outer Drive.

Thank you for reading my blog.

ardecila May 3, 2011 5:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevevance (Post 5263827)
RE: Removing southbound Damen left turn lane at Fullerton
I don't see a purpose to removing this. What would it be replaced with? A concrete median? The northbound turn lane it's shared with (for left turns onto NW-bound Elston) is still needed. And the signal cycle would still include a phase for the northbound turn lane onto Fullerton.

The SB turn lane would be replaced with a longer NB turn lane. Left turns from SB Damen to EB Fullerton would be prohibited; traffic would take the new Elston instead.

nomarandlee May 3, 2011 6:42 AM

Quote:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/classi...4375617.column

City seeks proposals for system to rival those in Europe, Asia
Jon Hilkevitch


Getting Around

6:40 p.m. CDT, May 2, 2011

Still itching to build something big for Chicago even in his final days in office, Mayor Richard Daley has invited technology experts from around the world to submit concepts for an express rail service to O'Hare International Airport.

Whisking travelers from downtown Chicago to O'Hare in 10 to 20 minutes, it would be the first rapid passenger rail line connecting a downtown and an airport in the U.S., rivaling express trains in Beijing, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Paris and Shanghai, officials said.

"Rich has an idea a minute, and his recent trip to China brought this to the forefront for him again," said Lester Crown, chairman of a 17-member committee that Daley appointed to explore O'Hare express rail service after an earlier plan to use the CTA Blue Line fizzled.

Responses to the city's "request for information and interest," due by July 26, will land on Rahm Emanuel's desk at City Hall. Mayor-elect Emanuel has expressed interest in the project. As White House chief of staff to President Barack Obama, Emanuel helped craft the administration's plan to build high-speed rail corridors across the U.S.

The initial objective of the O'Hare solicitation is to get suggestions from potential investors to finance, construct, operate and maintain the express rail project. Interested parties are required to identify potential routes and options for stations downtown and at the airport, as well as suggesting schedules and amenities to make the premium service attractive to customers.

The city wants the nonstop trains to operate about 20 hours a day. Daley's only other overarching requirements are that the new O'Hare service be developed without public funds and operate at high speeds. Daley said construction of the bullet train line could begin in five years.

The mayor frequently mentions as a potential model for O'Hare service his ride last year, aboard a magnetic levitation train in Shanghai. The Chinese maglev train briefly reaches a top speed of 267 mph on the short trip between Pudong International Airport and the outskirts of central Shanghai.

Members of the mayor's O'Hare express rail committee, however, said it's more important to focus on travel times than speed and on developing a premium-level service that handles baggage and delivers passengers directly downtown and into the airport terminals.

"Trains going 150 mph and faster don't make any sense for the distance to O'Hare," said Sam Skinner, a committee member who served as U.S. transportation secretary under President George H.W. Bush.

Skinner said identifying the best route will be key and using an existing right of way "would be a big plus." The route mentioned most prominently by rail experts is the right of way along Metra's North Central Service between Chicago Union Station and the O'Hare Transfer Station near the airport's remote parking lot F.

From a broader perspective, the project offers opportunities to connect the O'Hare service to Illinois' high-speed rail program, which is being coordinated with other Midwestern states, and other local mass-transit projects of the future.

Long-term transit projects include the proposed Metra STAR Line, which would provide expanded suburb-to-suburb connections; a proposed extension of the CTA Blue Line, possibly to DuPage County; and commuter rail service to Rockford.

"This is an exciting and really dynamic opportunity to do all the things that transit can and does do in a lot of other places in the world," said Rod Eggleston, vice president of rail in the Great Lakes region for HNTB, a leading infrastructure innovator..............

They also steered clear of offering ideas about whether to base the new service downtown at Chicago Union Station; the partially built Block 37 station, which under a former concept was to house a premium version of the CTA Blue Line to O'Hare; or a new location.

"We have some thoughts, but we want to hear what the experts have to say," Andolino said. "Our biggest thing is that we don't want to stifle anybody's creativity."

In the interim, meetings are set on Gov. Pat Quinn's recent request to Amtrak for a study on what it would take to introduce O'Hare express rail service between Union Station and the O'Hare Transfer Station. Metra's North Central Service, on the Chicago-to-Antioch route, makes 11 round trips each weekday with stops at O'Hare, but it doesn't operate on weekends. In addition, Amtrak offers the opportunity to bring train travelers from other parts of the state and the country to O'Hare, officials said.

"Hopefully we will be able to put a plan together for expanded O'Hare service in the relatively near future that does not require the kind of investment that Mayor Daley's high-speed plan calls for," said Joseph Shacter, director of public and intermodal transportation at the Illinois Department of Transportation.

"Both plans are about improving choices. Ours is to do something in the much more immediate future," he said.

Contact Getting Around at jhilkevitch@tribune.com or c/o the Chicago Tribune, 435 N. Michigan Ave., Chicago, IL 60611. Read recent columns at http://www.chicagotribune.com/gettingaround.
...l........

denizen467 May 3, 2011 7:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevevance (Post 5263827)
RE: Elston's name
The staff, including CDOT workers, said that the tinny, old stretch of Elston Avenue would remain Elston Avenue and the new part of Elston Avenue would get a new name. This was to retain the addresses for the businesses and homes that are not being removed from Elston Avenue.

Isn't it confusing for motorists who know they are driving on Elston to suddenly discover they are on a different street? Or what about a motorist coming over the bridge on Fullerton, with instructions to turn on Elston, and missing the intersection and instead arriving at the SE-bound stub's intersection?

There are really comparatively few addresses on the stub street. How about calling the bypass "Elston" but assigning new address numbers there in a way that none of them duplicates a previously-existing address, so that during the transition period no piece of mail has an ambiguous address. In the last couple decades businesses and households changed area codes from 312 to 708 and survived, and then later again changed from 708 to 630/847 and survived, so a change to "Ye Olde Elston Lane" or whatever should not be a big deal.

C.Lan May 3, 2011 8:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denizen467 (Post 5264372)
Isn't it confusing for motorists who know they are driving on Elston to suddenly discover they are on a different street? Or what about a motorist coming over the bridge on Fullerton, with instructions to turn on Elston, and missing the intersection and instead arriving at the SE-bound stub's intersection?

There are really comparatively few addresses on the stub street. How about calling the bypass "Elston" but assigning new address numbers there in a way that none of them duplicates a previously-existing address, so that during the transition period no piece of mail has an ambiguous address. In the last couple decades businesses and households changed area codes from 312 to 708 and survived, and then later again changed from 708 to 630/847 and survived, so a change to "Ye Olde Elston Lane" or whatever should not be a big deal.

I've had this problem before, usually midwest. It's different out in Cali; out here, you just get stuck in traffic for hours and want to beat your steering wheel while you're waiting for traffic to move in some conceivable direction to get where you're going. Chicago, Indy too when I've driven through it and Detroit, certain neighborhoods are pretty old-town, so it's hard to change the mail delivery system on substreets caught up by new housing, you've got "buildings that were there" and "buildings that were newly developed" and since the mail route hasn't changed (and USPS is f***in slow) unless you want to poison off the old tenants (which I don't suggest) for the neighborhood to be totally rehabbed, you have the interesting problems of lingering history vs. future forward.

Granted the old-town culture is what makes a lot of neighborhoods what they are; I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned. Does that not matter? Chicago in a lot of the outlying suburbs is old town; that's what makes its cultural integrity intact. Different from Cali. Which is, as a driver, quite difficult to navigate.

VivaLFuego May 3, 2011 2:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 5264238)
The SB turn lane would be replaced with a longer NB turn lane. Left turns from SB Damen to EB Fullerton would be prohibited; traffic would take the new Elston instead.

Ah... this would also explain why New Elston would be widened to two lanes each direction.

After construction, what would land ownership and development potential in the area be like? There are going to be a lot of very oddly shaped vacant parcels...

Nowhereman1280 May 3, 2011 2:58 PM

^^^ I would imagine they would want to replat any of the takings. I mean any lots that need to be demolished will have to be resized to make them marketable. I would imagine the reconfiguration of this intersection will really do a lot to open it up for redevelopment.

sammyg May 3, 2011 5:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denizen467 (Post 5264372)
Isn't it confusing for motorists who know they are driving on Elston to suddenly discover they are on a different street? Or what about a motorist coming over the bridge on Fullerton, with instructions to turn on Elston, and missing the intersection and instead arriving at the SE-bound stub's intersection?

If they make it anything like the stub of Lincoln Ave. in Lincoln Square, there shouldn't be any problem at all.

stevevance May 3, 2011 5:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 (Post 5264542)
^^^ I would imagine they would want to replat any of the takings. I mean any lots that need to be demolished will have to be resized to make them marketable. I would imagine the reconfiguration of this intersection will really do a lot to open it up for redevelopment.

I'm concerned about the plot "created" within the project (surrounded by Damen on the west, Elston on the north and east, and Fullerton on the south).

If any buildings are allowed to be built here, they may need driveways and off-street parking, making the newly-simple roadway design slightly more complex.

I was thinking this plot could be made passive green space. Add a bunch of curb/sidewalk adjacent landscaping to serve as a visual distraction that would slow traffic.

emathias May 3, 2011 5:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevevance (Post 5264700)
I'm concerned about the plot "created" within the project (surrounded by Damen on the west, Elston on the north and east, and Fullerton on the south).

If any buildings are allowed to be built here, they may need driveways and off-street parking, making the newly-simple roadway design slightly more complex.

I was thinking this plot could be made passive green space. Add a bunch of curb/sidewalk adjacent landscaping to serve as a visual distraction that would slow traffic.

I've always thought Chicago lacked a large, dramatic victory Arch - perfect place for it!

lawfin May 3, 2011 5:39 PM

Re: the Elston / Damen / Fullerton intersection

Count me as thinking this is a terrible idea. I know that intersection is tough but I see this as being worse at least at street level for neighborhood continuity and pedestrians......not that there are a lot of pedestrian hoofing it across the damen / fullerton intersection.

This might be good for transporting cars and getting suburbanites who get off at fullerton to this part of the city but I think for most of the people who live arpound here this "solution" is worse than the problem.....


Diced up isolated land dominated by increased traffic lanes does not make for a pleasant neighborhood


We really focus too much on the car in this town.....Chicago is screwed in the transportation dept.....I've given up; it seems Chicago looks west for its transportation inspiration; not even as far west as LA....which is doing some really exciting things in the transport dept.....but but more like Dallas or Phx.....

ugh


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