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jmecklenborg Feb 27, 2019 4:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalKid (Post 8487992)
Also, the majority of HSR systems in Europe have blended operations within dense urban environments, and dedicated tracks outside the cities. This is very standard for HSR. Saying the HSR system would terminate in SJ is silly.


The Pacheco Pass alignment puts San Jose in the driver's seat, with far better service than San Francisco. 30 minutes faster to LA and more trains. As I have written here for some time, that's why there has been so much push-back against California HSR, because it inevitably picks winners and losers.

Crawford Feb 27, 2019 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalKid (Post 8487992)
Bruh, I said TRANSIT was centered around downtown, which was the original point.

But the people don't take transit. It doesn't matter where transit is centered if people aren't taking it. LA is multinodal and car-centered, therefore a poor candidate for high capacity HSR.
Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalKid (Post 8487992)
Also, the majority of HSR systems in Europe have blended operations within dense urban environments, and dedicated tracks outside the cities. This is very standard for HSR. Saying the HSR system would terminate in SJ is silly.

No, they don't. I know of no European hub where the HSR tracks, and accompanying capacity, stop 50 miles from the destination. It would be like taking Frankfurt-Paris and stopping to transfer in a French cornfield.

jmecklenborg Feb 27, 2019 3:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8488907)
But the people don't take transit. It doesn't matter where transit is centered if people aren't taking it. LA is multinodal and car-centered, therefore a poor candidate for high capacity HSR.

Nobody goes to LAX and then flies to SF because they have to drive to LAX. It's a Ghost airport.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8488907)
No, they don't. I know of no European hub where the HSR tracks, and accompanying capacity, stop 50 miles from the destination. It would be like taking Frankfurt-Paris and stopping to transfer in a French cornfield.


HSR trains are limited to 99mph in the Channel Tunnel.

So right in the middle of perhaps the planet's premier international high speed rail line, trains must slow to about half of their top speed for 30 miles. That's why nobody rides it. Ghost trains.

That speed of 99mph in the Chunnel is 11mph slower than the CAHSR approach to SF and 26mph slower than its approach to LA.

Also, San Francisco is just a fraction of the Bay Area's 5+ million residents, which is why nobody lives there. Ghost city.

The Chemist Feb 28, 2019 2:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8488907)
But the people don't take transit. It doesn't matter where transit is centered if people aren't taking it. LA is multinodal and car-centered, therefore a poor candidate for high capacity HSR.

No, they don't. I know of no European hub where the HSR tracks, and accompanying capacity, stop 50 miles from the destination. It would be like taking Frankfurt-Paris and stopping to transfer in a French cornfield.

I don't know about Europe, but many of China's largest HSR stations (e.g. Beijing South, Shanghai Hongqiao, Guangzhou South) aren't exactly located right downtown - but they certainly aren't 50 miles outside the city either. Most of China's cities also have Metro connections to their HSR stations, in many cases more than one line directly connected. The only Chinese city that I can think of that has its station right downtown is Hong Kong - the Kowloon HSR station is pretty much in the heart of Kowloon, but that made the HSR link from Hong Kong to Shenzhen extremely expensive because it had to be underground for much of its length.

jmecklenborg Mar 1, 2019 6:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Chemist (Post 8490272)
I don't know about Europe, but many of China's largest HSR stations (e.g. Beijing South, Shanghai Hongqiao, Guangzhou South) aren't exactly located right downtown - but they certainly aren't 50 miles outside the city either. Most of China's cities also have Metro connections to their HSR stations, in many cases more than one line directly connected. The only Chinese city that I can think of that has its station right downtown is Hong Kong - the Kowloon HSR station is pretty much in the heart of Kowloon, but that made the HSR link from Hong Kong to Shenzhen extremely expensive because it had to be underground for much of its length.

Well LA Union is obviously going to have two rapid transit lines, four light rail lines, and numerous diesel lines connecting directly to it.

SF Transbay is just 900 feet from the BART/Muni Montgomery station. Deridon in San Jose will be served directly by the new BART extension. Additionally, everyone on the peninsula can take electrified Caltrain to Deridon and switch to HSR to LA.

SFBruin Mar 14, 2019 4:26 AM

Maybe we should wait until these things are built, then, see what trends are like, and then evaluate the need for High Speed Rail.

digitallagasse Mar 14, 2019 4:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFBruin (Post 8505186)
Maybe we should wait until these things are built, then, see what trends are like, and then evaluate the need for High Speed Rail.

This comes down to a chicken and egg problem. Yes better local transit would help HSR usage. That said right of way acquisition is one of the major costs for HSR. The more things get developed over time the most costly that right of way will become.

Maybe the compromise can be acquiring that right of way in the denser areas and using it for local transit. Have the right of way grade separated. Also have it designed to directly support future HSR or have the space for expansion to support that future HSR. At least that will help both the local transit needs and the path in for HSR.

jmecklenborg Mar 15, 2019 4:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitallagasse (Post 8505590)
Maybe the compromise can be acquiring that right of way in the denser areas and using it for local transit. Have the right of way grade separated. Also have it designed to directly support future HSR or have the space for expansion to support that future HSR. At least that will help both the local transit needs and the path in for HSR.

Um, that is exactly what is happening. HSR is paying for half of this one near San Francisco:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDmoIhyDuiQ

Here's one between LA and Anaheim:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugsdkvHd610

SFBruin Mar 17, 2019 3:59 PM

^ I guess if High Speed Rail results in local improvements in San Francisco and LA, then it could be a good thing. I don't get why a mainline is necessary for these improvements.

I may be an old soul for this project. :/

jmecklenborg Mar 18, 2019 7:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFBruin (Post 8508725)
^ I don't get why a mainline is necessary for these improvements.

They're horrendously expensive the rail volume is way less than the Alameda Corridor. HSR at full build-out will add 12 trains per hour, per direction, thereby justifying the grade separations.

jd3189 Mar 20, 2019 9:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8487533)
None of this is true.

Real HSR would terminate in SJ, not SF, and LA is not oriented around its core. It's probably the most multinodal major metro on earth.

Being in Southern California for a few months and taking the Metrolink commuter rail that connects LA to SB, SJ, Orange County, etc, I would say that LA’s transit is somewhat centered at the downtown core via Union Station.

jmecklenborg Mar 28, 2019 3:27 AM

New drone footage of Central Valley construction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnV0...vNpYtK0GRGm2ys

LAsam Mar 28, 2019 3:56 PM

^ Wow, there's quite a bit of work being done in the Central Valley. I'm so torn by this project... on the one hand, I really do like the idea of a high speed rail network connecting California's urban center. On the other hand, I can't help but feel that this is a massive boondoggle and we're ultimately not going to receive the high speed rail network we need... just a shadow of it.

jmecklenborg Mar 28, 2019 6:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAsam (Post 8521793)
^ Wow, there's quite a bit of work being done in the Central Valley. I'm so torn by this project... on the one hand, I really do like the idea of a high speed rail network connecting California's urban center. On the other hand, I can't help but feel that this is a massive boondoggle and we're ultimately not going to receive the high speed rail network we need... just a shadow of it.


Completion of these aerial structures gives the project a strong visual. As someone who used to work in print journalism, I can attest to the power of a visual in attracting attention to an issue. Moreover, the public hates seeing something that is incomplete. So seeing new trains operating on new bridges out in the central valley but NOT close to the big cities will arouse jealousy and improve public support for completion of the project between LA and SF.


The other thing is that these fact-centered videos being put out by the HSR Authority are getting close to zero views. Meanwhile, shilling by the Reason Foundation, that huckster Elon Musk, etc., gets millions of views.

Busy Bee Mar 28, 2019 8:41 PM

That's because people are stupid. Also because fear/doubt propaganda is often viewed by people on the rabbit hole path and aren't exactly the same crowd seeking out factual postive news on youtube about the project.

plutonicpanda Apr 2, 2019 3:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 8522301)
That's because people are stupid. Also because fear/doubt propaganda is often viewed by people on the rabbit hole path and aren't exactly the same crowd seeking out factual postive news on youtube about the project.

It could also be slightly due to hostile nature of those that disagree and using ad hominem instead of education and facts that you claim to have to make a point. How do you expect to have a rational and intellectual conversation by start off with “that’s because people are stupid” basically calling those that disagree with you and your opinions of transit stupid. Good luck with that.

jtown,man Apr 4, 2019 11:09 AM

Everyone that is against anything they like are "funded by the Kock brothers" or some other right-wing boogie man. Like, do yall realize people are individuals? Not all opposition is funded or backed by some organization. People just don't like the price tag, they don't like the timeline, they don't like the "benefits" of it, and they don't like the routes.

And instead of debating these points, all relevant, they are just STUPID.

I don't want to get too far off in the weeds here, but this is a problem with Democrats overall. If you don't believe in their particular vision, you are BAD MAN. The same thing happened to me when I was in class and challenged the Green New Deal. You would have thought I told all the kids in class their dead grandmas deserved to die earlier. I wasn't even challenging climate change, I was simply stating I think the GND wasn't actually trying to gain support by being a document that is 40% or so about everything but climate change. Like if they really wanted it passed, they could have cut all that out and tone it down a bit and it might have become a document Republicans would actually look stupid not supporting.

Anyways, sorry to go off topic. I just think its important people realize not everyone who disagrees with you are funded by some billionaires or are stupid. People have different points of view, and unless we are talking about some far-off idea, everyone usually has some point deep down in their opinions worth listening too.

Nautica Apr 4, 2019 1:20 PM

Well said.

Busy Bee Apr 4, 2019 3:41 PM

Truth be told, stupid was a bit of snarky hyperbole on my part. In the future I'll stick with unenlightened. :rolleyes:

LAsam Apr 4, 2019 6:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 8529680)
Truth be told, stupid was a bit of snarky hyperbole on my part. In the future I'll stick with unenlightened. :rolleyes:

With a Twin Peaks related avatar... I'll accept pretty much anything you throw out there. :cheers:

chaunceyjb Apr 30, 2019 5:34 PM

New construction pictures up on the Flickr account: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsrcagov

Busy Bee May 1, 2019 4:36 PM

It's good to see any progress you can. That being said I wish, since it is being funded through CHSR program funding, they would show photo progress of the Caltrain electrification project. The calmod site leaves a bit to be desired with their construction updates and the photos they do have seem to have been taken at 2 in the morning.

electricron May 2, 2019 4:51 AM

Caltrain may be using CHSR funding to help finance electrification between SJ and SF - they have also received Federal funding as well. While construction is underway - they have also ordered new train sets.

FYI, CHSR has not to date. What had been ordered by California DOT to run in the San Joaquin Valley are 40 year old ex-Arrow/Comet cars from NJT. California DOT has also ordered new single level cars from Siemens - not sure where they will be used - but not one penny of CHSR money has gone to buy either of them. Good luck getting any of the cars recently purchased by California DOT to go faster than 125 mph over tracks that should be certified for 200+ mph. Hee-Haw!

jmecklenborg May 2, 2019 3:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electricron (Post 8559399)
Caltrain may be using CHSR funding to help finance electrification between SJ and SF - they have also received Federal funding as well. While construction is underway - they have also ordered new train sets.

FYI, CHSR has not to date. What had been ordered by California DOT to run in the San Joaquin Valley are 40 year old ex-Arrow/Comet cars from NJT. California DOT has also ordered new single level cars from Siemens - not sure where they will be used - but not one penny of CHSR money has gone to buy either of them. Good luck getting any of the cars recently purchased by California DOT to go faster than 125 mph over tracks that should be certified for 200+ mph. Hee-Haw!


I believe that there have never been any plans to buy HSR trains until Phase 2 through the Pacheco Pass is completed to San Jose.

It'll be sad to see conventional trains (possibly the current diesel Caltrains) on HSR Phase 1 in the central valley for 5-10 years, but that's where we're at.

Busy Bee May 2, 2019 8:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electricron (Post 8559399)
Caltrain may be using CHSR funding to help finance electrification between SJ and SF - they have also received Federal funding as well. While construction is underway - they have also ordered new train sets.

FYI, CHSR has not to date. What had been ordered by California DOT to run in the San Joaquin Valley are 40 year old ex-Arrow/Comet cars from NJT. California DOT has also ordered new single level cars from Siemens - not sure where they will be used - but not one penny of CHSR money has gone to buy either of them. Good luck getting any of the cars recently purchased by California DOT to go faster than 125 mph over tracks that should be certified for 200+ mph. Hee-Haw!


I'm not sure what the hell this has to do with anything, let alone what his has to do with my comment about Caltrain photos.

electricron May 7, 2019 5:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 8560050)
I'm not sure what the hell this has to do with anything, let alone what his has to do with my comment about Caltrain photos.

What made you think I was replying to you? Did I put any of your responses within a quote, like I did with this one, with my earlier reply?
I wanted to make an observation to add to this thread, not necessarily responding to anyone in particular, which is why that post did not include a quote.

Whether or not what is being built in the central valley is finished or not, my point was that it is not going to do any good to anyone until CHSR actually buys some HSR trains to run on it.

Caltrain, by the way, has bought new trains to run under its' new catenaries they are installing. Like two peas in a pod, they will allow each capital expense to work as intended almsot immediately.

Meanwhile, CHSR authority is apparently going to have some new tracks with catenaries above with no trains able to use them to their fullest capability. That is not something to be bragging about.

Maybe CHSR plans to use the ex-Acela HSR trains Amtrak will be retiring from the NEC soon. CHSR should be able to buy them as scrap prices - saving millions of dollars. But I have a feeling they will not.

jmecklenborg May 8, 2019 6:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electricron (Post 8564698)

Whether or not what is being built in the central valley is finished or not, my point was that it is not going to do any good to anyone until CHSR actually buys some HSR trains to run on it.


Amtrak's conventional diesels operate at 110mph where the track, signaling, and grade crossings have been sufficiently upgraded. Trains like this will be free to operate at that speed on completed sections of the CAHSR and won't have to sound their horns at each grade crossing, because there won't be any grade crossings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGk2tSKCMjo

electricron May 8, 2019 6:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg (Post 8566032)
Amtrak's conventional diesels operate at 110mph where the track, signaling, and grade crossings have been sufficiently upgraded. Trains like this will be free to operate at that speed on completed sections of the CAHSR and won't have to sound their horns at each grade crossing, because there won't be any grade crossings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGk2tSKCMjo

Having a train running at 110 mph over tracks designed for trains running twice that speed is not fully using it.
How would you feel if CDOT all of a sudden limited speed limits to 30 mph or less on every foot of freeway within the state? You do know every bit of these freeways are designed and built for vehicles traveling at least twice as fast. Would you consider that fully using taxpayers' dollars to their fullest?

How are you going to convince more taxpayers to spend even more money building the rest of the CHSR system with trains going just a little bit faster than they can today? You will not be show casing high speed 200+ mph trains anywhere - which is what I thought they were trying to build.

Imagine how successful the Panama Canal would have been if they built the locks but forgot to dig the trench between them? Or vice versa, built the trench but forgot to build the locks?

Imagine MGM spending the most money ever filming Ben Hur without the the chariot race at the end. Imagine Singing in the Rain without Gene Kelly dancing and singing in the rain. Imagine any movie without it's star. Well, the tracks are not the star of a HSR system, the HSR train is the star. It is what most riders will touch, what most rider will take photos with it in the background, what most taxpayers expect to see. Yes, they will expect to see and ride a train going 200 mph. Without that, your HSR system will be considered by everyone as a complete and utter failure!

jmecklenborg May 8, 2019 3:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electricron (Post 8566036)

Without that, your HSR system will be considered by everyone as a complete and utter failure!


Yeah if they do it it'll be a temporary situation. I don't think the public has any trouble understanding that.

jtown,man May 9, 2019 1:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg (Post 8566309)
Yeah if they do it it'll be a temporary situation. I don't think the public has any trouble understanding that.

I think you're giving the public too much credit here.

Busy Bee May 9, 2019 1:54 AM

^This is true. I stopped giving the public credit on 11-9-16.

The North One May 16, 2019 10:18 PM

Trump Administration Revokes $929 Million for California High-Speed Rail
 
Quote:

Transportation Department follows through on threat after state scaled back plans for troubled project

By Ted Mann and Alejandro Lazo
Updated May 16, 2019 4:55 p.m. ET

The Trump administration made good on its threat to cancel nearly $1 billion in funding for California’s troubled high-speed rail project after Gov. Gavin Newsom said he would scale back its scope.

In a letter Thursday to the head of the California High Speed Rail Authority, Federal Railroad Administrator Ronald Batory confirmed the move the administration had floated in February, officially terminating the Transportation Department’s agreement to provide an additional $928.6 million to help pay for the project.

...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-a...il-11558034243

welp

Pedestrian May 17, 2019 2:30 AM

^^Newsome asked for this when he changed the concept of the project. He should have expected it and he needs to deal with it.

Car(e)-Free LA May 17, 2019 3:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 8575981)
^^Newsome asked for this when he changed the concept of the project. He should have expected it and he needs to deal with it.

Newsom is an idiot who should have never won the election.

202_Cyclist May 17, 2019 1:36 PM

Car(e)-Free LA and Pedestrian-- I agree with you but this is absolute bullshit.

The illegitimate, lawless, Trump regime also is continuing to withhold funding for the important Gateway project. Shame!

NikolasM May 17, 2019 6:09 PM

Trump is the greatest infrastructure president of all time. All time. We've got like 15 miles of wall going up on the border. We've got um, er, hmmm.

yakumoto May 17, 2019 10:58 PM

I would have gotten up in arms about this years ago, but I think its pretty obvious as a state we don't have the capacity to take care of our existing infrastructure let alone to take on large scale projects.

Busy Bee May 18, 2019 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yakumoto (Post 8577001)
I would have gotten up in arms about this years ago, but I think its pretty obvious as a state we don't have the capacity to take care of our existing infrastructure let alone to take on large scale projects.

With adequate funding help from the federal government, this project can and will be built. Since the nation and quite realistically world depend on Trump not being re-elected I think California can expect a large funding commitment in 2 years under a Democratic administration.

Busy Bee May 18, 2019 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikolasM (Post 8576617)
Trump is the greatest infrastructure president of all time. All time. We've got like 15 miles of wall going up on the border. We've got um, er, hmmm.

"Rebuilt" existing wall planned and approved under the previous administration. Since Trump is driven by animosity towards Obama and an unquenchable thirst to claim credit and be glorified, that must secretly drive him crazy.

jtown,man May 18, 2019 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 8577074)
"Rebuilt" existing wall planned and approved under the previous administration. Since Trump is driven by animosity towards Obama and an unquenchable thirst to claim credit and be glorified, that must secretly drive him crazy.

Wait...Obama approved a racist and immoral wall, but no one complained then, why?

yakumoto May 18, 2019 12:52 AM

Its not a lack of money, its our states physical capacity as a governing body, coordination, labor pool, etc, the money just goes down a black hole getting siphoned off by sub-sub-sub-contractors. Something like the transbay terminal mess should have been a warning but I feel like its going to take a bridge collapse for people to "get" it

aaron38 May 18, 2019 3:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 8577071)
With adequate funding help from the federal government, this project can and will be built. Since the nation and quite realistically world depend on Trump not being re-elected I think California can expect a large funding commitment in 2 years under a Democratic administration.

The Democratic Party has a supermajority in the state assembly, continuous rule since 1970, current Democratic governor and plenty of past dem governors. They can’t get their act together, can’t clean up their own mess.
But it’s all Trump’s fault and everything will be fine as soon as my state gives them more money to spend. Like we don’t have our own infrastructure to pay for.

Crawford May 18, 2019 3:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Car(e)-Free LA (Post 8576031)
Newsom is an idiot who should have never won the election.

I think you spelled Dotard wrong. Looks like the idiots squatting in the WH are doing what they do "best", trolling anyplace in the U.S. that's remotely prosperous and non-medieval in outlook.

Here in NY-NJ, Dotard's clown car DOT has given exact $0 to replacing a collapsing rail tunnel that's the busiest on the planet, which is the most important link to the largest business district on the planet, and which serves a region encompassing around 10% of the entire U.S. GDP.

DOT Secretary Chou (McConnell's wife) was actually quoted saying it wasn't a federal priority. It "only" serves 600,000 commuters daily (well over twice the passenger load of Atlanta Hartsfield, busiest airport on earth). But hey, trolls gotta troll.

Busy Bee May 18, 2019 4:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man (Post 8577084)
Wait...Obama approved a racist and immoral wall, but no one complained then, why?

For the same reason most didn't complain about his deportation program, which was the largest and most successful, because it was effective. Focusing on actual criminals instead of a sadistic and abhorrent preoccupation with de-humanizing migrants and making their lives miserable as a cruel deterrent.

A short section in existence at least since the 1980s. He approved the renovation of an existing section. Nice try. But you already know all of that. You get a little thrill in your belly being a contrarian goober.

Busy Bee May 18, 2019 4:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaron38 (Post 8577210)
The Democratic Party has a supermajority in the state assembly, continuous rule since 1970, current Democratic governor and plenty of past dem governors. They can’t get their act together, can’t clean up their own mess.
But it’s all Trump’s fault and everything will be fine as soon as my state gives them more money to spend. Like we don’t have our own infrastructure to pay for.

What does this have to do with anything? Are you talking about Illinois? I'm confused. Is it your position that a massive federal infrastructure bill shouldn't include a large amount to advance the California program if it also funds high speed, regional and commuter rail projects across the country?

Car(e)-Free LA May 18, 2019 7:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8577230)
I think you spelled Dotard wrong. Looks like the idiots squatting in the WH are doing what they do "best", trolling anyplace in the U.S. that's remotely prosperous and non-medieval in outlook.

Here in NY-NJ, Dotard's clown car DOT has given exact $0 to replacing a collapsing rail tunnel that's the busiest on the planet, which is the most important link to the largest business district on the planet, and which serves a region encompassing around 10% of the entire U.S. GDP.

DOT Secretary Chou (McConnell's wife) was actually quoted saying it wasn't a federal priority. It "only" serves 600,000 commuters daily (well over twice the passenger load of Atlanta Hartsfield, busiest airport on earth). But hey, trolls gotta troll.

I couldn't agree more, but a Governor Antonio Villaraigosa would clearly be better for HSR.

TWAK May 18, 2019 6:28 PM

So are we gonna get left out of the infrastructure bill that's supposed to be coming, or do we get the money that we now owe to the feds waived?
It's now an actual debacle, before it was a slow-moving huge project that was actually starting to get built.....

WrightCONCEPT May 18, 2019 7:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian (Post 8575981)
^^Newsom asked for this when he changed the concept of the project. He should have expected it and he needs to deal with it.

Absolutely and I think this was intentional so that Newsom can point to Trump for the blame- playing Chicken with him- to stop the project rather than his own words which were completely uncalled for. If it was about keeping costs inline, that is appropriate and should have left the conversation at that to making sure we are "delivering what the voters supported".

However the other bits in Newsom's State of the State address was about screwing Southern California and keeping this project to help out with the gentrification and commuter cities with affordable housing his "rent control policy" buddies in the Bay Area. And I don't think a change in the administration will change the fact that he's essentially backing away from the project. Newsom needs to own up to that.

The North One May 20, 2019 5:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtown,man (Post 8577084)
Wait...Obama approved a racist and immoral wall, but no one complained then, why?

Some people don't seem to realize that Obama's "hope and change" campaign back in 08 was a lie. Obama was a center-right establishment democrat who fucked over the people behind their backs.

Obama was very pro-high speed rail though.

Busy Bee May 20, 2019 5:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The North One (Post 8578802)
Some people don't seem to realize that Obama's "hope and change" campaign back in 08 was a lie. Obama was a center-right establishment democrat who fucked over the people behind their backs.

Obama was very pro-high speed rail though.

Obama was a Centrist no doubt about that. I've never heard anyone describe his campaign initiatives as a lie. I believe he wanted to accomplish most of what he spoke of but was incredibly naive to think the GOP and the right wing hate machine were going to cooperate, with what was obviously a very profitable industry of Obama hysteria encouraging absolute obstruction. He even went so far as to try to get Republican support by proposing a Republican health care reform program. They rejected their own health care proposal as socialist, communist, Hitler, death panels and other assorted nonsense only possible in this ridiculously uninformed country of ours. He also wasn't planning on inheriting the most serious economic downturn in 80 years. That will put a hamper in any presidents intentions and I believe we owe him for having the wisdom to do the things necessary to keep the world from plummeting into a global depression. I'm not sure what people he was "fucking over behind their backs". Deportations? The lack of DOJ prosecution of Wall St? When you're being told how fragile the economy is you would probably lay off too if in his position. Not saying that's what he should have done. But that's what happened for better or for worse. The history books will judge Obama very positively regardless of how much he disappointed the left of the Democrat party especially economic leftists like myself.

And yes, Obama, like Biden as well, are true believers in high speed rail and had his 2 terms produced a serious dedicated infrastructure program outside of the emergency stimulus and Tiger grants, we would have seen much more solid progress with true HSR in the country. That said he still would have had despicable creatures like Walker and Scott making political hay out of rejecting federal investment in rail on purely ideological grounds and a cornucopia of absurdist concerns over UN control and indoctrination to be more like Europeans. Make no mistake the Republicans are the reason no progress has been made on, well, pretty much everything. And that has little to do with whether Obama was a centrist or a "radical leftist." In America, a president like Obama can be a "radical leftist manchurian candidate" to the ignorants on the right. Blame the ignorants on the right for that instead of whether or not one of the most dignified Presidents the country has had in a century governed a little more conservatively than we had hoped for.


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