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mrnyc Jun 12, 2022 6:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LineDrive (Post 9647379)
So confused. What is the difference between the Moynihan train hall and Penn Station?

I mean all this money for the commuter rail but what about the subways? They need so many extensions and new lines and renovated stations.


what about subways? :shrug:

for one thing, phase II of the second avenue subway moved into the engineering phase this past january -- more:

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger...ubway-phase-2/

https://www.railwayage.com/wp-conten...2/01/Map-1.png



also, sen.schumer brokered a design build deal this past december to speed up construction of four new mnrr stations in the bronx.
they will act like local transit for bronxites and is supposeed to be completed in five years:

more:
https://www.bxtimes.com/supercharge/

https://www.bxtimes.com/wp-content/u...M-1536x870.png

TowerDude Jun 13, 2022 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9647781)
also, sen.schumer brokered a design build deal this past december to speed up construction of four new mnrr stations in the bronx.
they will act like local transit for bronxites and is supposeed to be completed in five years:

more:
https://www.bxtimes.com/supercharge/

https://www.bxtimes.com/wp-content/u...M-1536x870.png

There will also eventually be two west side Metro North Stations feeding in to Penn Station on the Hudson Line:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Access_Map.png

There's talk about connecting those four Bronx stations into the IBX line as well.

mrnyc Jun 14, 2022 12:46 PM

more on penn:


Hochul launches bidding for design of $7 billion Penn Station overhaul


By Kevin Duggan
Posted on June 9, 2022

Governor Kathy Hochul announced the state will start soliciting designs for her $7 billion plan to beautify Penn Station Thursday.

Architectural and engineering firms will have until July 28 to submit proposals to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority to give the notoriously-cramped station a facelift, the governor said at the Moynihan Train Hall on June 9.

“The glory days are coming back,” Hochul said during a press conference at the Midtown station.

“We are taking an enormous step toward righting one of the wrongs of the past 60 years,” she added. “This time we’re going to get it right.”

The MTA’s so-called request for proposals went live Thursday afternoon, and officials will choose a winning bid by late summer or early fall, Hochul said.


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/hochul-...-penn-station/


The plan calls for more light inside the notoriously dark station.
Office of Governor Kathy Hochul
https://www.amny.com/wp-content/uplo...enn-inside.jpg

mrnyc Jun 15, 2022 1:30 PM

when yr mom sends you florida news :uhh::D


https://m.facebook.com/FOX13TampaBay...8020492374148/

Busy Bee Jun 15, 2022 2:51 PM

^ I think that made the national news.

I know kids have been doing this kind of thing for decades and maybe because it's just now being captured by hi-res smartphones, but it does seem like it's getting more and more reckless and/or brazen. To me it seems like those kids have no natural self-preservation instincts if they think it's a "thrill" and not a potentially easy death sentence to be doing what they're doing. It's one thing to ride off the back car between a few stations or mess around in the yards around the third rails like back in the graffiti days but it seems like a whole other thing to be running on the roof of a moving train. I mean WTF? And I think it said they crossed the WB like that?? Goodlord...

Randomguy34 Jun 15, 2022 4:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TowerDude (Post 9648114)
There will also eventually be two west side Metro North Stations feeding in to Penn Station on the Hudson Line:

Are there any plans to double track the Empire Connection south of 39th St?

Busy Bee Jun 15, 2022 4:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomguy34 (Post 9650450)
Are there any plans to double track the Empire Connection south of 39th St?

There's some murkiness regarding whether its even possible. I think I've read something that suggests, especially at this point with the foundations of Hudson Yards towers above, that it would essentially be infeasible to construct a parallel tunnel box for a second track. I also think I read somewhere that maybe just maybe Amtrak engineered the Empire Connection tunnel to allow a second track in the future. Only a handful of people would definitively know the answer to this. When Amtrak constructed it in the 90's they weren't thinking that MTA would run M-N over any of the West Side Line (and a single tunnel track had plenty of capacity for their needs), and we know how great either of them are at envisioning and planning for the future, especially then.

Since ESA Phase 2 is clearly planning on and has publicly announced their intention on running some Hudson Line trains over the Empire Connection and into Penn, one would think planners at both agencies have come to the conclusion that a single track tunnel in and out of Penn is sufficient for capacity. I have my doubts about that but we'll see. If I was Amtrak and the MTA I'd be trying right now to get some of that Infra money, maybe even tack it onto the Gateway contribution and double track that tunnel NOW because in my humble opinion it's got the look of shooting yourself in the foot written all over it. This should be part of the planning around the tower at 418 11th Ave.

TowerDude Jun 15, 2022 7:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 9650469)
There's some murkiness regarding whether its even possible. I think I've read something that suggests, especially at this point with the foundations of Hudson Yards towers above, that it would essentially be infeasible to construct a parallel tunnel box for a second track. I also think I read somewhere that maybe just maybe Amtrak engineered the Empire Connection tunnel to allow a second track in the future. Only a handful of people would definitively know the answer to this. When Amtrak constructed it in the 90's they weren't thinking that MTA would run M-N over any of the West Side Line (and a single tunnel track had plenty of capacity for their needs), and we know how great either of them are at envisioning and planning for the future, especially then.

Since ESA Phase 2 is clearly planning on and has publicly announced their intention on running some Hudson Line trains over the Empire Connection and into Penn, one would think planners at both agencies have come to the conclusion that a single track tunnel in and out of Penn is sufficient for capacity. I have my doubts about that but we'll see. If I was Amtrak and the MTA I'd be trying right now to get some of that Infra money, maybe even tack it onto the Gateway contribution and double track that tunnel NOW because in my humble opinion it's got the look of shooting yourself in the foot written all over it. This should be part of the planning around the tower at 418 11th Ave.

If you ever want to substantially increase the frequency of Ethan Allen, Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Lake Shore Limited, Berkshire Flyer and Empire Service trains AND do two new Metro North Stations on the corridor you would definitely have to at least double track the whole Empire Service tunnel.
https://i.imgur.com/21TaeHC.jpg

TowerDude Jun 16, 2022 12:30 AM

The other part of the system that would need double tracking would be the Spyuten-Duyvil bridge https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ridge_crop.jpg

MAC123 Jun 16, 2022 12:47 AM

That needs to be raised so it doesn't open anymore.

Busy Bee Jun 16, 2022 12:53 AM

Actually it should just be a tunnel. The technology exists to easily make that a reality. Just bring the Norwegians over to build it.

Busy Bee Jun 16, 2022 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TowerDude (Post 9651068)
The other part of the system that would need double tracking would be the Spyuten-Duyvil bridge



I believe it has been budgeted for. Still seems like the whole bridge needs to be decommissioned and replaced with a modern tunnel though.

TowerDude Jun 16, 2022 1:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 9651095)
I believe it has been budgeted for. Still seems like the whole bridge needs to be decommissioned and replaced with a modern tunnel though.

They've already replaced the swing part of the bridge ... in the interim while a tunnel is built the capacity increase should be allocated for by just double tracking the existing bridge (for which there is the space)
https://bridgehunter.com/photos/47/34/473490-L.jpg
https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/TWC...trakbridge_jpg

mrnyc Jun 17, 2022 12:49 AM

the gateway tunnels:


https://www.amny.com/transit/report-...teway-tunnels/

manchester united Jun 18, 2022 3:40 AM

What about the possible reopening of the Hilton corridor to link the Penn Station with the PATH?

Busy Bee Jun 18, 2022 1:32 PM

I'm assuming you're talking about the Gimbels passageway? I've never heard it called the Hilton corridor. If so, and I have no evidence for this, but I suspect it's been left out of discussions because Vornado likely doesn't know what the future of the Gimbels Building (Manhattan Mall) is. I really want to see it fully restored with a new tower above. It's a beautiful building (plus the skybridge woyld be a tragedy to see destroyed) and would be a damn shame to lose it, both architecturally and historical significance. But even if it is, a new tower woyld likely effect the passageway and a ground up new building definitely would. Therefore I would imagine this lack of definitive plans for the site is what is preventing any announcement regarding the passageway.

LineDrive Jun 18, 2022 6:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9647781)
what about subways? :shrug:

for one thing, phase II of the second avenue subway moved into the engineering phase this past january -- more:


also, sen.schumer brokered a design build deal this past december to speed up construction of four new mnrr stations in the bronx.
they will act like local transit for bronxites and is supposeed to be completed in five years:

You consider this adequate? The flagship city of the richest and most powerful nation on earth - along with most major US cities has transit subpar for what it needs.

Phase 2 of Second Avenue is nice but … frankly that line should be much further along. New York needs subway service to LaGuardia, Utica Avenue, at least 1 outter borough line (BXQ) and MANY MANY stations need major upgrades.

You have areas of the city that are putrid for rapid transit. Mill Basin Brooklyn and Little Neck Queens for instance are miles from the subway system.

Then there are other ideas that are considered pipedreams but in other nations aren’t and decades ago wouldn’t be here either…..

Example, in addition it would be nice if NYC more rapid service to New Jersey. The two PATH lines really aren’t enough. Plans for the 7 to Seacaucus were a great idea that never got off the ground.

Of course in “it will never happen category” you would connect SIR to the Subway but … yeah right.

New York could use a service that goes through the city and connects on outter area to the other (think CrossRail 1 & 2). A high speed service that say went from Long Island to New Jersey or Fairfield County to Staten Island or Fairfield county to Long Island.

MAC123 Jun 18, 2022 7:39 PM

I mean yeah, we know. There's not a lot we can do about it though. Due to ridiculous labor and land costs in NYC, frankly I'm surprised as much gets done as gets done.

Busy Bee Jun 18, 2022 7:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LineDrive (Post 9653628)
You consider this adequate? The flagship city of the richest and most powerful nation on earth - along with most major US cities has transit subpar for what it needs.

Phase 2 of Second Avenue is nice but … frankly that line should be much further along. New York needs subway service to LaGuardia, Utica Avenue, at least 1 outter borough line (BXQ) and MANY MANY stations need major upgrades.

You have areas of the city that are putrid for rapid transit. Mill Basin Brooklyn and Little Neck Queens for instance are miles from the subway system.

Then there are other ideas that are considered pipedreams but in other nations aren’t and decades ago wouldn’t be here either…..

Example, in addition it would be nice if NYC more rapid service to New Jersey. The two PATH lines really aren’t enough. Plans for the 7 to Seacaucus were a great idea that never got off the ground.

Of course in “it will never happen category” you would connect SIR to the Subway but … yeah right.

New York could use a service that goes through the city and connects on outter area to the other (think CrossRail 1 & 2). A high speed service that say went from Long Island to New Jersey or Fairfield County to Staten Island or Fairfield county to Long Island.


Congratulations, you've entered the brain of many a NY armchair transit planner. ;)

Quote:

Then there are other ideas that are considered pipedreams but in other nations aren’t and decades ago wouldn’t be here either…..
Paris currently has 20 TBM's in the ground right this second building tunnels for the expanded Metro. TWENTY!

The MTA acts like a 1.5 mile single line extension is grasping at the impossible. It's not all about money, this is a cultural problem at the MTA that has developed over several generations of leadership. And it didn't actually start in the bad old days of the 70s. By post-WW2 the air had been let out of the entire spirit of urban NYC transit investment. Then the bankruptcy, the graffiti, the seemingly dismal outlook for long-term basic good maintenance, let alone expansion.

I think it will get better, but there needs to be a paradigm shift in how the region can meet current and future transit needs. I know it's likely next to impossible, and maybe even unconstitutional, but I would love to see an entire division of the federal government, including the USDOT, FTA and FRA dedicated to just a few of the nations economic and population power centers, with the greater NY region at the top, and singlehandedly focus on planning and funding massive transportation investments that will hasten huge returns. This era of low expectations has got to end. The MTA has got to get a federal partner to break out of this logjam of underfunded and dormant ambitions.

LineDrive Jun 18, 2022 8:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 9653651)
Congratulations, you've entered the brain of many a NY armchair transit planner. ;).

Feel like I’ve been there for a while. Don’t even get me started on my home base, Boston



Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 9653651)
I think it will get better, but there needs to be a paradigm shift in how the region can meet current and future transit needs. I know it's likely next to impossible, and maybe even unconstitutional, but I would love to see an entire division of the federal government, including the USDOT, FTA and FRA dedicated to just a few of the nations economic and population power centers, with the greater NY region at the top, and singlehandedly focus on planning and funding massive transportation investments that will hasten huge returns. This era of low expectations has got to end. The MTA has got to get a federal partner to break out of this logjam of underfunded and dormant ambitions.

The bipartisan infrastructure bill was a major missed opportunity. $1.2T and only $30B+ went to rail? Turn the $1.2B into $1.5 adding $250B would have been a truly transformative allotment. City after city would have been reimagined …sigh


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