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mrsmartman Jun 17, 2018 7:37 AM

Quote:

The New York City Subway Is Beyond Repair

Forget trains. It’s time for something radically different.

PETER WAYNER
JUN 9, 2018

The New York City subway is a miracle, especially at 3 a.m. on a Friday night. But the system is also falling apart, and it’s going to cost billions to keep the old trains running: $19 billion, at least according to one estimate from city planners. The time has come to give up on the 19th-century idea of public transportation, and leap for the autonomous future.

Right now, fully autonomous cars are rolling around Pittsburgh, the San Francisco Bay area, and parts of Michigan, shuttling people from here to there with minimal manual intervention. Instead of fixing the old trains, let’s rip out the tracks and fill the tunnels with fleets of autonomous vehicles running on pavement. The result would be radical improvements in throughput while saving money and increasing the ability of the system to survive a fire, flood, or terrorist attack.

These subterranean highways would be dramatically simpler than public roadways for an autonomous artificially intelligent system because the tunnels could be limited to authorized vehicles only. No jaywalkers on cellphones. No babies in runaway carriages. Just a collection of competing fleets, centrally orchestrated and offering different levels of service to different groups at different prices.

[...]

Source: The Atlantic
https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/m...ad_720_405.jpg

Commuters ride an L train in New York City (LUCAS JACKSON / REUTERS)

Busy Bee Jun 17, 2018 2:30 PM

Not worth reading. It just gets dumber.

llamaorama Jun 17, 2018 7:32 PM

The cost of doing all that sounds like it would be higher than replacing what exists now. Right now autonomous vehicles that exist are either production cars with stuff added to them, or fancy enclosed golf carts, so the MTA would have to single handedly develop a completely new type of electric robot tunnel bus, along with their batteries, charging systems, and navigation software. And it would have to spend years tearing up the existing tracks and redoing stations and then putting in pavement and charging facilities.

Also someone tell this guy that automated metro trains already exist and are standard on new metros in China and Asia and they build new lines for cheaper than we can fix old ones. So maybe the solution is to reform the agencies in charge of infrastructure and seek wisdom from countries that don't suck at these things like we apparently do.

What that article describes has been a concept in urban transportation since the 1970s. VAL systems, the Morgantown PRT, the Pittsburgh Skybus, etc.

To match the capacity of a subway train, such a fleet of autonomous vehicles would have to basically be a bidirectional bus with multiple doors, longitudinal seatings, etc. In other words, a subway car. The electric motors would need a way of charging, so third rails would have to be installed along at least part of the line. Meaning there would still be a lot of complex infrastructure to maintain that would degrade over time.

I assume the entire benefit of this specific plan really comes from being able to add and subtract cars and send some of them down other routes per demand(hence the whole privatization angle). But where would empty cars go to turn around or wait if demand was uneven? Wouldn't there be congestion as vehicles accumulated in midtown during rush hour? Software might be able to optimize the network into a humongously complex interlining scheme but the physical constraints of the tunnels and where they go would still limit things.

The nice thing about the rails is that they and the rolling stock that run on them are already in place and are probably the longest lasting component to the whole system. Automated vehicles would still need to have charging stations along the routes which would need power conduits. The tunnels and stations themselves have to be kept up.

manchester united Jun 17, 2018 8:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Pine (Post 8219949)
So do you guys think that the World Cup wbid will mean much for transit improvements?

If will be built also a 40k soccer stadium in NYC.........
Go NYCFC!!!

mrnyc Jun 18, 2018 4:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchester united (Post 8223893)
If will be built also a 40k soccer stadium in NYC.........
Go NYCFC!!!

there is a soccer stadium planned for them for the south bronx below yankee stadium -- so we'll see what happens! :tup:

more:
https://ny.curbed.com/2018/4/18/1725...-bronx-related


****


metrocards begin to tap out in may 2019



Transit fares in NYC: MTA to begin retiring MetroCards in May 2019

The MTA will begin a staggered rollout of its new fare payment technology in subways along the Lexington Avenue line, from Grand Central to the Barclays Center, and on buses on Staten Island.


Riders will eventually be able to pay to board subways and buses in a variety of different ways — either by tapping bank cards, a proprietary smart card, or their phones up against a reader.


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/metroca...ent-1.19188463

mrnyc Jun 18, 2018 4:42 PM

discount fares for the poor:


Fair Fares, the newly budgeted program to provide half-fare MetroCards to low-income New Yorkers, is expected to play an invaluable role in improving inequity in New York City.

Following the city’s agreement to include $106 million in funding to launch the program, advocates and elected officials rallied in Fulton Center Tuesday to celebrate the policy they say will improve the lives of New Yorkers who have to ask for MetroCard swipes or choose between riding the train or eating a meal.

“You can’t get ahead if you can’t get around,” said John Raskin, executive director of the Riders Alliance. “Fair Fares is an invaluable city program that’s going to help the most vulnerable New Yorkers access work and education and all the opportunity that comes in the City of New York.”


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/fair-fa...lly-1.19160559

mrnyc Jun 19, 2018 10:57 AM

what to know about the metrocard phaseout:


https://www.amny.com/amp/transit/met...ent-1.19287725

202_Cyclist Jun 19, 2018 4:02 PM

LaGuardia rail connection
 
New York Lawmakers Press for LaGuardia Airport Rail Link; Assembly passes a bill that would authorize the state to use public land for the project; Senate has yet to vote on the measure

By Katie Honan and Paul Berger
18 June 2018
Wall Street Journal Online

"LaGuardia Airport is pushing ahead with plans for a Queens rail link that would hasten travel to Midtown Manhattan, and a bill introduced in the state legislature would authorize New York to use public land for the project.

The move comes as the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which runs the airport, has sought alternate routes for the AirTrain after nearby residents pushed for it to be located farther from their homes. The legislation would give the Port Authority more options for possible routes, the agency says.

Assemblyman Jeffrion Aubry, a Democrat who represents the Queens neighborhood where LaGuardia is located, introduced the bill in the chamber, where it passed Monday. A measure was introduced in the Senate on June 16 but hasn't been voted on yet..."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-yor...ink-1529338332

mrnyc Jun 19, 2018 4:37 PM

^ while they are at it they need to throw in a little jag south down college point blvd in flushing and the van wyck or main st to d'yer maker so that we can have a complete jfk to laguardia rail connection. now that would be useful. then they could add stations anytime and just make airtrain a sort of outer boro transit loop. airtrain is underused strictly as an airport rail service.

M II A II R II K Jun 20, 2018 4:21 PM

NYC Mobility Report Shows Rise in Ride-Hail, Decline in Subway Ridership: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/download...-optimized.pdf




https://nextcity.org/images/daily/_r...6.09.58_PM.png

chris08876 Jul 2, 2018 4:16 PM

Cuomo OKs bill paving way for rail link to LaGuardia :cheers:

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo has signed legislation that paves the way for the construction of a rail line that will let train passengers travel between midtown Manhattan and LaGuardia Airport

Quote:

The Democrat signed the AirTrain construction bill Monday after detailing the plans during an event at the World Trade Center in lower Manhattan.

The $1.5 billion plan calls for a train line connecting the airport with subway and Long Island Rail Road stations in Queens at Willets Point, location of Citi Field, home of the New York Mets.


Officials say the new line will get travelers to the airport in 30 minutes from either Penn Station or Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan.

LaGuardia, the region's only airport without direct rail access, is undergoing a multibillion-dollar redevelopment of its aging terminals.

====================
Crain's

k1052 Jul 2, 2018 8:31 PM

Hordes of luggage toting tourists clogging the overtaxed 7 at Willet's Point and the various already constrained Manhattan stations is going to be...something.

Seriously seems like the most expensive and least useful option. Why not just build viaduct for LIRR coming off the Port Washington branch and use it to run shuttle service out of Penn and GCT (when the East Side Access finishes in 2970)?

electricron Jul 2, 2018 9:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8239527)
Hordes of luggage toting tourists clogging the overtaxed 7 at Willet's Point and the various already constrained Manhattan stations is going to be...something.

Seriously seems like the most expensive and least useful option. Why not just build viaduct for LIRR coming off the Port Washington branch and use it to run shuttle service out of Penn and GCT (when the East Side Access finishes in 2970)?

Ever heard of listening to your clients? The neighborhood didn’t want the construction activities and mess a brand new line would have created, so the planners came up with this alternate plan using the existing transit corridors already in place as much as possible. While it may require a transfer, it will get you to more airport terminals and gates than your suggestion of a direct line with longer trains. Yes, even in New York City there are those who believe never ending construction is bad.

ardecila Jul 3, 2018 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electricron (Post 8239606)
Ever heard of listening to your clients? The neighborhood didn’t want the construction activities and mess a brand new line would have created, so the planners came up with this alternate plan using the existing transit corridors already in place as much as possible. While it may require a transfer, it will get you to more airport terminals and gates than your suggestion of a direct line with longer trains. Yes, even in New York City there are those who believe never ending construction is bad.

First, there is no line going within 2 miles of LGA, so the state needs to build roughly 2 miles of guideway in any case. But if you're already building an expensive transit corridor, why build an automated people mover system instead of an LIRR spur? There could still be a transfer station at Willets Point where the new LIRR junction is located, so passengers could still transfer from the 7.

Or why not build an extension of the Astoria Line splitting off at Grand Central Parkway? Continue the W trains to Ditmars and send the N trains to LaGuardia.

KVNBKLYN Jul 3, 2018 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electricron (Post 8239606)
Ever heard of listening to your clients?

Ever look at a map? Instead of a poorly thought-out transfer, the LIRR could branch off at Willets Point instead and head directly to LGA, making the roundabout route somewhat acceptable as it would reduce transfers to Midtown, which is the origin/destination of most passengers at LGA.

And there's no difference in who it will affect between an LIRR branch and an Airtain. It's the same route.

Busy Bee Jul 3, 2018 1:11 AM

Everyone here making all these better suggestions than the AirTrain need to stop making sense. That's just not how things work in NYC. So weird two mile long train requiring a transfer it is.

ardecila Jul 3, 2018 1:47 AM

It makes perfect sense if you're a politician. The Port Authority can build and operate the LGA AirTrain with no need to get the pesky MTA involved (either NYCTA or LIRR) except on a token basis while rebuilding Willets Point.

Just like how the New York Thruway built the Tappan Zee Bridge across the widest part of the Hudson, screwing over future generations financially when it was time to rebuild the bridge, but that time it was to avoid the Port Authority getting involved.

k1052 Jul 3, 2018 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 8239748)
Or why not build an extension of the Astoria Line splitting off at Grand Central Parkway? Continue the W trains to Ditmars and send the N trains to LaGuardia.

I believe this idea (and similar ones) was scotched when local residents objected to any rail line over that part of GCP due to it ruining the scenic nature of the road...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 8239837)
It makes perfect sense if you're a politician. The Port Authority can build and operate the LGA AirTrain with no need to get the pesky MTA involved (either NYCTA or LIRR) except on a token basis while rebuilding Willets Point.

Just like how the New York Thruway built the Tappan Zee Bridge across the widest part of the Hudson, screwing over future generations financially when it was time to rebuild the bridge, but that time it was to avoid the Port Authority getting involved.

If the renderings out of the state are to be believed at all it looks like the plan is to operate a dedicated LIRR shuttle from Penn/GCT to a new transfer station at Willets straddling the LIRR alignment so looks like they'll need to deal with the MTA anyway for construction and operation. This is so damned stupid.

k1052 Jul 3, 2018 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 8239797)
Everyone here making all these better suggestions than the AirTrain need to stop making sense. That's just not how things work in NYC. So weird two mile long train requiring a transfer it is.

Somehow the LGA AirTrain will probably end up with 20-30 minute headways making the whole scheme even more of a joke.

aquablue Jul 4, 2018 1:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electricron (Post 8239606)
Ever heard of listening to your clients? The neighborhood didn’t want the construction activities and mess a brand new line would have created, so the planners came up with this alternate plan using the existing transit corridors already in place as much as possible. While it may require a transfer, it will get you to more airport terminals and gates than your suggestion of a direct line with longer trains. Yes, even in New York City there are those who believe never ending construction is bad.

I don't care about these clients, angry NIMBY's or stupid city politics and greed. I care about a city doing the right thing, like other great cities do around the world. NY should keep up with the rest of the competition and do it right. no nonsense, just get it done properly like nearly every other major world capital/top city has done.


The airtrain idea is bad. Look at London, where they took an existing rail line and built a spur/loop with tunnel into Heathrow with multiple stations allowing for one-seat-rides from the city two multiple terminals. Could have done that with the commuter rail in NYC. However, They are repeating the same mistake here as with JFK, outdated cheap solutions that other great global cities wouldn't think of. The JFK airtrain would be used far more if they didn't require a silly transfer in a place called Jamaica.

If you have been to London and ridden the heathrow express, you would know what I'm talking about. The same is true in Singapore, HK, Beijing, Milan, Amsterdam - and on and on.. they get you to the city to the airport without changing the train

NY politics is ridiculous and is holding it back. Chicago is doing the right thing with a direct express and new tech, while NY will remain far behind in terms of technology with their dinky little people mover with a transfer, lol. NY will remain a global laughing stock when it comes to providing airport transport compared to its peer cities. Taking shortcuts doesn't pay off in the end.


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