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-   -   Phoenix Development News (3) (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=173764)

HooverDam May 26, 2011 10:14 PM

Great news about the music venue! Downtown was in desperate need of a smaller music venue. One is good for now but really to be a truly great downtown we need lots, but this is a start.

PHX31, about the Heritage Trolley line, check out this site

The problem with trying to run the Heritage Trolley on Van Buren is there's no turn lane for a lot of that stretch. On Grand the Trolley will run in the turn lane and they're small enough that there's still room for station loading/unloading points in the middle there. People would walk halfway across a crosswalk. up a ramp and onto the trains.

There's a turn lane West of 5th Ave on VB but between 5th and 7th its tricky. You could sacrifice a lane of traffic for it, but in this City thats always a tough sell.

I'd love to see the Trolley just simply go from Grand and the I-10 overpass to VB/Central (to the Central bus stop). That would do wonders for Lower Grand, making it much easier to get to. It would also hopefully spark development along West Van Buren, which is zoned for the highest density, tallest buildings as well as our only real space for department/anchor stores downtown.

PHX31 May 26, 2011 10:34 PM

So what is the status of GARP? Is it going nowhere due to no funding? Is it going nowhere due to no leadership/push/involvement?

I still think this would have been a much better use of "centennial money" than almost anything. It could still be done.

HooverDam May 26, 2011 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX31 (Post 5293554)
So what is the status of GARP? Is it going nowhere due to no funding? Is it going nowhere due to no leadership/push/involvement?

I still think this would have been a much better use of "centennial money" than almost anything. It could still be done.

I think the biggest thing is funding, of course. Additionally since it would be running on City Streets you obviously have to get the City on board with it.

I know part of their vision was to use the space under the I-10 Overpass for a Trolley Barn and museum. That space is owned by ADOT and very blighted and there's not much you can do with a space like that. I think their idea is great.

Additionally it would make a good halfway/turn around point if they ever extended the line Northward to connect to the Fairgrounds/Encanto Park area at like 19th Ave and Encanto.

Shoot them an email or go to the current Trolley museum, I met a guy a while back who was with them and more than happy to talk at length about it.

combusean May 27, 2011 6:24 AM

It's rare that I would call a "transit" project a waste of money, but the GARP as currently proposed is just that.

Why spend millions of dollars to build the line a freaking quarter mile at a time starting from the opposite side it should be--who the fuck would be riding a streetcar to go from under I-10 to 15th Ave for its first phase? If they somehow managed to build even that, the service would be such an irrelevant black hole of money it would never make its most important connection to the light rail, something it should have done first.

The capital costs they propose--moving/rebuilding a car barn and laying new tracks aren't qualities of a heritage streetcar, but they're proposing service times just as bad. It wouldn't even run like regular transit service--nights, weekends, and "low traffic" periods--so it wouldn't even service its target neighborhoods the time they're most busy. The system would never go north to the fairgrounds with any respectable or worthwhile level of service unless it were double tracked, and I highly doubt that's what they're proposing.

I would *LOVE* to see this become a competent project: regular new transit service built at once, supported by petitions of residents who wished to form an improvement district, and approved & funded by the City, MAG, State, and the FTA. That is the *only* way this is going to happen, and I would be wholeheartedly opposed to public money or special district tax going to any other attempt. I would rather any private contributions to its construction go to causes that actually make sense in the long run.

HooverDam May 27, 2011 1:24 PM

^I think the idea is to open it as a museum and use that to fund the rest of the length of the Trolley. If the museum became popular and people could take rides on a Historic Trolley it would raise awareness and hopefully funds. There's a lot of Trolley Museums like this around the country, one here in MA, that let people ride historic trains for a fee.

Initially their plan is to use it more as a museum and less as a mode of transportation. I'd love to see a special tax district or some way that it could just be built from the I-10 Bridge to Central Station all at once.

On a newer plan of there's that I saw in their office it showed the Trolley turning South on 7th Ave and connecting with LRT at 7th Ave/Jefferson. Thats easier to do due to the turn lane, but I still prefer trying to work out a Van Buren route since that half mile has such potential as a shopping street, especially with the trolley.

HX_Guy May 28, 2011 3:31 AM

So what developer is trying to get some high rise zoning for their property now to sit on it for years and years?

Quote:

Study (ASN): 2011-AWP-2311-OE
Prior Study: 2008-AWP-3041-OE
Status: Work In Progress

Received Date: 04/19/2011
Notice Of: CONSTR
Duration: PERM (Months: 0 Days: 0)
Work Schedule: 01/01/2012 to 12/31/2015

Structure Type: Lighting Study
Structure Name: - Tower

Structure Height: 560'

Edit: Oh wait...they have a previous FAA study with more information...

Quote:

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external...eCaseID=574479

Sponsor: SW Development Group
Attention Of: Beau Woodring

Description of Location: Northeast corner of Central Avenue and Wiletta Street
Description of Proposal: Approximately 684 residential condominiums within 2 560' towers

combusean May 28, 2011 3:38 AM

You may remember the SWDG project as Museum Towers.

http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/projects/swdg_twin_towers/

The project was previously approved during the height of the boom and little was ever heard of it. I did some research some months ago and found that it was actually still kicking. I always considered it fairly real when it was being proposed because of Woodring's name attached to it and the fact that the company behind it, Soave, had lots of money.

http://www.swdevelop.com/

gymratmanaz May 28, 2011 1:52 PM

I wonder if this and other projects that died will find new life and money? There were quite a few that planned and spent a ton only to do nothing. Maybe some of the project plans, money, and time spent will get dusted off and put back in line.....in time.?

HooverDam May 28, 2011 2:17 PM

What's the height that parcel is currently zoned for? 560' is very, very tall by Phoenix standards and up-zoning that parcel to that height in my mind just means that lot is more likely to get land banked and held onto for decades. I'm all for this company building twin apartment towers or whatever, but they could be plenty dense at 200' and still make a tidy profit I'm sure.

PhxDowntowner May 28, 2011 2:34 PM

What's the (rough) benchmark ratio you guys use for height & FAR (or stories)? I'm just not sure how to interpret 560' or 200' in functional terms.

HooverDam May 28, 2011 3:30 PM

^It varies a lot on building type. The stuff over at the Biomed campus for instance has higher floor to floor heights because of all the wires, equipment, etc in the floors and ceilings. I believe its around 15' floor to floor or so.

Offices I think are 13', apartments 10'. But higher end apartment buildings with vaulted ceilings will of course be more.

combusean May 29, 2011 1:22 AM

Museum Towers already has the zoning to go up as proposed. I don't think it is being land banked because the developer is moving forward on it.

http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/height_rules_of_thumb.txt

is one of plinko's posts I saved that explains floor-to-floor/total building heights quite well.

HX_Guy May 29, 2011 1:35 AM

Hmm...so there could actually be some meat behind this? Seems like an odd place to put two 560' apartment towers, but I guess if that's where you have the land, that's where you do it.

plinko May 29, 2011 2:19 AM

I actually think it's a great place for apartments. I don't know about two 560ft towers (particularly not that look like THAT), but it's near the lite rail, Hance Park, the Library, right next to CVS and nearby to Safeway and is downtown (adjacent) but doesn't necessarily have the same 'downtown bad' connotations. I would think that in this market a large rental project at that location would be a good bet to work.

I'd also like to point out that it's 3/4 of a mile to ASU.

gymratmanaz May 29, 2011 4:19 AM

Anything on the light rail route has positive perks. I kinda like their look, being different than anything else around. I agree with Plinko about the ASU proximity, a great location for those who want to be close but not in the dorm scene.

Leo the Dog May 31, 2011 5:12 PM

Weren't these residential towers called "Cielo Phoenix"? I remember seeing billboards along the 10 freeway advertising these before the market fell out.

HX_Guy May 31, 2011 5:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog (Post 5298602)
Weren't these residential towers called "Cielo Phoenix"? I remember seeing billboards along the 10 freeway advertising these before the market fell out.

Cielo were further north on Central.

combusean May 31, 2011 6:55 PM

I'm going to repost this just for you Leo ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean (Post 5295253)
You may remember the SWDG project as Museum Towers.

http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/projects/swdg_twin_towers/

The project was previously approved during the height of the boom and little was ever heard of it. I did some research some months ago and found that it was actually still kicking. I always considered it fairly real when it was being proposed because of Woodring's name attached to it and the fact that the company behind it, Soave, had lots of money.

http://www.swdevelop.com/


Leo the Dog Jun 1, 2011 6:21 PM

^ok thanks.

plinko Jun 9, 2011 8:46 PM

^what, is the whole north end of downtown has been up-zoned to FFA height limits only and the city is giving away incentives to property owners to tear down their buildings and build parking while waiting for the bank to finance the next big thing?

Or is it something else?


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