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-   -   Phoenix Development News (3) (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=173764)

PhxDowntowner Aug 18, 2011 8:54 PM

yup, they've always had beer.

dtnphx Aug 18, 2011 9:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhxDowntowner (Post 5383106)
Not dense enough. We need to think bigger. Medium density is no different, functionally, than low density given our current transportation hurdles.

Maybe so, still row houses in major urban centers have no more density than this. For Phoenix, it's functional.

PhxDowntowner Aug 18, 2011 9:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtnphx (Post 5383215)
Maybe so, still row houses in major urban centers have no more density than this. For Phoenix, it's functional.

Actually the exact opposite is true.

Don't look at height as a direct proxy for density. Here we currently have to build TALLER to create the SAME density as other urban centers b/c ppl here still demand larger footprints. So this is LESS dense than what you see in similar buildings in other urban centers.

And in Phoenix that's NOT functional because until we achieve a critical mass of people living urban car-free lifestyles, we are going to have a much higher car-ownership rate than other urban centers. What does that mean? It means that even if we have the same density as some other place, we will have less pedestrian activity, which is a detriment to a healthy downtown. It also means that the people that live in our downtown will patron businesses in a wider geographic range than in other urban centers, providing less support for our downtown businesses.

So to achieve comparable urban health & vibrancy as other city centers, we have to start thinking taller and denser than we currently are. I struggle to understand the purely subjective opposition to such developments when there are objective reasons to support and encourage them.

PHX31 Aug 18, 2011 9:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westbev93 (Post 5383149)
Switching gears-they posted public hearing notices for the project at 7th Ave. and McDowell. One is for signage, and the other is for outdoor alcohol consumption at Chipotle.

I've never been to Chipotle, but they serve booze? I thought it was fast food?

Anyone know what architect is working on this rehab? I'd like to see some renderings... I can't tell what they're planning on doing. They've got most of the building as a shell, then the one part of the building has the entire structure demo'd except that wooden truss section.

combusean Aug 18, 2011 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan (Post 5383126)
They should be at least twice the height for more density. Since this development aims to lure older adults, it does make sense that units would be a little larger. However, in an urban setting that should mean the building would then need to be taller. I do like the "brownstone" front steps to the sidewalk.

A denser project would have been more expensive, and the funds to build it might not have been available. A six-story project would have automatically presumed concrete construction instead of wood-frame, driving up costs significantly. I believe the design of this project has been in the works for years out of ASU's Stardust Center for Affordable Housing, so there's that too. Would have been nice to see a 4-over-1 project with ground floor retail tho...

The bigger issue here, and I may get tarred and feathered for saying this, but for as much as I love affordable housing, this project is going to just add a slew of disabled, poor, old people that will hardly contribute to downtown's overall vitality.

westbev93 Aug 18, 2011 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHX31 (Post 5383237)
Anyone know what architect is working on this rehab? I'd like to see some renderings... I can't tell what they're planning on doing. They've got most of the building as a shell, then the one part of the building has the entire structure demo'd except that wooden truss section.

The project was originally discussed in this thread back on pages 10 and 14 (way back in 2009). Looks like there was a link to a broker listing for the project through Phoenix Commercial Advisors, but I can't find it now so maybe there's a new listing broker. I don't know who the architect is, but I can look around the project tomorrow morning to see if I find there name somewhere.

Vicelord John Aug 19, 2011 2:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean (Post 5383281)
The bigger issue here, and I may get tarred and feathered for saying this, but for as much as I love affordable housing, this project is going to just add a slew of disabled, poor, old people that will hardly contribute to downtown's overall vitality.

why would you get tarred and feathered?

I agree with you. Overflow from the injun housing and westward ho.

After 6 months or so the units will be torn up and infested with sewer roaches.

pbenjamin Aug 19, 2011 5:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean (Post 5383281)
Would have been nice to see a 4-over-1 project with ground floor retail tho...

Sorry if this seems argumentative but I have been thinking about this for a long time. I hear this "ground floor retail" business with just about every project that is discussed and it has been implemented all over the place. What is the point of more empty retail spots? I realize it is a good idea to have it when utilized but there is so much of it, why would more be needed? For example, every time I get on the Metro at Encanto I look at a whole block of empty retail in Tapestry. What future event is anticipated that is going to fill all of these storefronts?

PhxDowntowner Aug 19, 2011 5:31 AM

the storefronts under Tapestry are empty for reasons other than "lack of demand".

But yes, you are right, and we in Phoenix need to better understand urban environments and the critical role that density plays. We don't, and will never in our lifetimes if ever, have the density to support ground floor retail on all edges. Some places can, but they can (and are willing to) build much higher than us. If everyone in Phoenix is hell-bent on building up our downtown with 3-6 story buildings, then we must assign certain areas to be residential, and others to be pedestrian throughfares w/ retail & commercial, because 6 story buildings don't hold enough people to have retail everywhere.

Leo the Dog Aug 19, 2011 2:44 PM

That rendering looks more like ATL or Houston.

As for the ground floor retail: this usually only works when it's on both sides of a street, not sprinkled and scattered all over DT. Phoenix needs to focus on a single corridor of ground floor retail.

combusean Aug 19, 2011 6:15 PM

Which single corridor of ground floor retail do you all propose? There's no place in Downtown Phoenix where the built environment allows that.

pbenjamin Aug 19, 2011 6:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhxDowntowner (Post 5383727)
the storefronts under Tapestry are empty for reasons other than "lack of demand".

What are those reasons?

Vicelord John Aug 19, 2011 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbenjamin (Post 5384222)
What are those reasons?

imaginary, since he couldn't quote any reasons.

PHX31 Aug 19, 2011 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean (Post 5384190)
Which single corridor of ground floor retail do you all propose? There's no place in Downtown Phoenix where the built environment allows that.

I would say Central from Jefferson up to I-10 (or even to McDowell).

Everything that is already there has ground floor retail. The few empty lots that there are should be required to have ground floor retail when built upon.

Classical in Phoenix Aug 19, 2011 10:16 PM

I had mentioned earlier the plans Arizona School for the Arts has for the SWC of 3rd Street and McDowell, as well as the building to the west of that corner and the lot just south of that building. The update below is from this week's newsletter that goes out to parents of students.

we are now moving into our our new McDowell North building. McDowell North will primarily contain High School Academic classes, Ballet, Theatre Arts and Choir (5-12). Construction on McDowell South has also begun and will be completed in March for move-in after spring break. This new four-story building will replace all classes currently held in the church. Outdoor courtyard space on the 3rd Street and McDowell corner will include shade, turf, trees, and places for students to have lunch, practice, study, perform, etc.. We are currently in the planning stages for this project, and we will share the plan with our ASA community shortly. [/I]

Vicelord John Aug 20, 2011 1:55 AM

Holy sweet Jesus, how did we all miss this?????

Apparently this guy was with Pyramid for some time, so this is going to be a big time brewery. They are hooked in with Alliance beverage as well, so that means likely big time distibution.

http://www.phoenixbrew.com/2011/06/p...a-new-brewery/

PhxDowntowner Aug 20, 2011 7:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicelord John (Post 5384480)
imaginary, since he couldn't quote any reasons.

more likely, the reasons just weren't the point of the post.

pbenjamin Aug 20, 2011 3:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhxDowntowner (Post 5384824)
more likely, the reasons just weren't the point of the post.

It still would be nice to know what they were.

PhxDowntowner Aug 20, 2011 3:59 PM

I hear that the owner is asking too much (pre-recession expectations/cost basis), and that they had/are having trouble getting occupancy permits for whatever reason(s).

exit2lef Aug 20, 2011 6:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhxDowntowner (Post 5384963)
I hear that the owner is asking too much (pre-recession expectations/cost basis), and that they had/are having trouble getting occupancy permits for whatever reason(s).

I've also heard from a Tapestry resident that the retail spaces do not have appropriate ventilation and plumbing for full-service restaurants.


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