Further VE'ing?

At this point I hope they do a complete redesign in the direction of Salesforce tower in SF.

No, not if you really love shampoo!

https://s3.amazonaws.com/bzzagent-bz...dspice-lrg.png

CHICAGO | Wolf Point - South & East Towers | ~950 ft & ~750 FT
 

as requested by many of you, these towers now have their own thread.

See that's nice, continuing the form and flow of the building up to a point. Much better. If only that were the real proposal.

Agreed. If PCP does turn out to indeed be the actual design architect of the S Tower, it needs a redo. Let's get completely rid of this pomo(ish) 'flair'. We're past that silliness.

They do have the ability to design some very nice facades. I believe Salesforce will turn out to be a good example. But one doesn't have to look far in San Francisco to find the ultimate example of this from PCP - the fantastic 560 Mission - which is a crown jewel in Pelli's portfolio. This is where they should be looking for inspiration from their own work.

Let's be clear though - this new rendering of the south tower design is a clear downgrade from the earlier design......if it's a choice between the two, the earlier version wins in a landslide (obviously ideally, that version would have some definite refinement......)

The previous look was so boring. This round is so much better. Like the height and like the setbacks on both these towers. Great additions to the river.

Ironically 150 N Riverside reminds me of this...

http://www.addictedtosaving.com/wp-c...09/pantene.jpg

Thanks, I think adding the point in such a manner creates sort of a regal effect in keeping with the seemingly art deco influence they're trying to apply.

So is going to be a little taller than the 950' advertised?

If one of us knew that, don't you think we would have said?

^The new rendering clearly shows a taller building with more floors.

The new rendering clearly shows a spire on the south tower. As I've mentioned, the PD states that the height to the bottom of the top slab is 950' for the south tower and 750' for the east tower. This doesn't necessarily include mechanical penthouses, blade overruns, or spires.

Some images from the last public meeting indicated that PCP was considering this kind of intricate facade with terra cotta elements.

I imagine if 560 Mission was transplanted to Chicago, it would have big problems with icing. The NY Times tower has a similar design in a cold climate, and it continues to have issues with icing.

Right that's what I'm saying... the tower is now over 1000' even if you don't count the spire.

The tower is now zero feet. If built it will top out at 983 feet.

Or 299.6 meters...

:haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:

Apologies for the relatively meaningless thread bump, but I was day dreaming about this one, and I can't recall anyone pointing out the crown's defining characteristic- It's an inverted "Y", with a geometry that's clearly inspired by the Confluence. Nice touch, Pelli.

Lol, I see it too, that's great especially if that really was his intent. With WPW finishing up, I'm itching to hear more on this one, please bump with news that WPS is breaking ground next time.

Are there any hints that once construction is over at the apartment tower that they will begin work on the next two towers? I'm going to hate it if they begin to lay down asphalt for the parking lot and install landscaping.

There will be a community meeting prior to each new phase.

Since the West Tower sales center is now up, I imagine they're going to try to fill the building before beginning phase II.
:slob:
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/apps/...20151015134259
Rendering by Crains

Also of note- "Renderings of the two future Wolf Point buildings that surfaced on the Internet over the summer depict a sleek tapering spire on the middle, tallest building, but Hines representatives say the renderings were not accurate or final. They won't comment on what Wolf Point will look like" :/ I love the south tower design.
Per Crains.

I wonder how long until we get something on the real gem of this project Wolf point south tower.

WPS? Depends on demand for office and high price condos.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...-office-towers

at least they haven't turned the rest of the site into a parking lot just yet

Does anyone know what the interim plan is?

Well at least the article said the vacancy rate for office space at least is at an all time low since 2008. If it's a mixed used tower which I think it is that means Wolf point South still probably has a chance at getting built I assume.

I wouldn't be surprised if the South tower is changed from office to condos and a hotel. I don't see an office tower being built there for awhile given the current market conditions. Not unless they can pull someone big from the suburbs or out of town. Condos on the other hand... that location is pretty prime.

Well, maybe a little office space and have the rest be a hotel or condos. Although I do hope if it's all hotel/condos that it remains 1000+. This is such a perfect location for a supertall that it would be a damn shame if the other towers fell through.

I don't think it was ever an announcement that the south tower would be office to begin with.

From what I heard it would be mixed use which would mean office + other stuff

Not necessarily. Mixed use could easily and actually more likely mean residential + hotel. office space usually plays alone

Whoever buys in the West tower can reasonably assume their East view is going to be blocked sooner than later?

^ The west tower is rental, no?

I think a more likely scenario is launching the East Tower as condos first before the South Tower. Then Hines could wait for the next market cycle to launch office leasing for the South Tower. The location is near irresistible for office tenants, there just aren't many large tenants looking for space at top rates right now.

That said, I'm not sure offhand if it's practical to build the South Tower after the East is completed. Seems pretty difficult from a construction standpoint, but I'm sure they could stage from the lower level somehow, or from a barge if they had to.

From a construction standpoint, wouldn't building both at the same time be best? Wishful thinking though

I'm not sure what you're referring to. More likely than what? The programming for the east and west towers haven't been announced. We do know that there will be a hotel, office and residential component to the rest of the development. The most logical arrangement of those components based on what usually gets built in Chicago would be that the south tower would be hotel and condo while the east tower would be office.

I say that because generally speaking as someone pointed out above office stands alone. But also notice that the east tower is the general size of just about every office tower proposal we've had the past few years and that usually when a developer combines hotel and condo they go for height and use some of the hotel services for the residences.

Good question. I don't know but I would think it's probably better to build the south tower first and then the east tower for logistical reasons. It makes sense to use the footprint of the east tower for staging materials for the south tower. Then with the east tower you would have to use the street.

The floorplates of the South Tower make no sense for office especially compared to the East Tower. This is Hines we are talking about. Does anyone really think they are going to hold a board meeting where everyone will sit down and say:

"Let's take the building that is 750' tall with 50,000 SF floorplates and make that condos. Then we can take the 1000' tall building with 30,000 SF floorplates and make it office. That way the office building can have a loss ratio of 20 or 25 % and the condos will be a tube with a little window at the end."

The developer is looking for the highest and best use for each program given the set parameters of the PD. They are not going to build them in a less profitable use let alone select and less profitable use for both buildings simply because office tenants would think 800' views were cool. The location of the South Tower is also less desirable than the East Tower because it is significantly less visible and accessible than the East Tower which you view it from a leasing perspective.

Weren't the designs largely just rough outlines though? I was under the impression that the height and design (thus floorplate) for the South and East tower were not finalized.

^Let's hope the designs aren't finalized...

I'm not saying the designs are finalized, but the massing is pretty much locked in which is all that matters when it comes to the efficiency of one program over another. They agreed to preserve certain view lines and that means they can't just make the south towe fatter to accommodate office more efficently or anything like that.

I heard from someone at Hines today that they expect delivery on the South Tower in 2020/2021. His words were they didn't want to start too soon to River Point so they did not compete with each other. Also, he mentioned he was told that the renderings are not placeholders and should stay the same with only minor design changes.

^ thanks for the update! :tup:

Delivery as in following through with their plans, or completion?

in the development world, "delivery" usually refers to completion, as in delivery of the product (condos, apartments, office space, etc.) to the marketplace.

if they hold to that timeline, shovels would most likely go in the ground sometime in 2018.

Well, I'm still praying they change... the Pelli designs remind me of something built in, like, Minneapolis in the '90s...

Since WPW is now in the "completed" section, here's that plus the remainder of the site:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1668/...55097253_b.jpg20160123-_DSF9523 by Jeffrey Wang, on Flickr

I've almost completely missed the floorplate size differential between s and e towers in my previous multiple attempts to explain why office in the s tower is unlikely. But, this is even a more compelling reason probably.

The e tower is perfectly suited for a single use office tower...right massing, right floorplate, right height, situated right within the overall wp footprint....on and on.....while the s tower works better as a resi/hotel combo.........

How about the East Tower? West Tower turned out to be a stunner!

Sam, what you're saying makes sense, as far as the South tower being resi/hotel, but what do you make of Hines' concern about this tower "competing" with River Point, which would imply it's going to be at least partially office.

Imagine, office within the first 700' and then hotel after the setback above. Dear Tower Gods, just this one time, please let hotel on the upper-floors be profitable.