Lol, not going to happen, rock tunnel for this? No way. As I mentioned earlier, Chicago's soft clay is actually perfect for tunneling, its just keeping it dry and safe that's expensive. A TBM in our soil is likely mostly limited by how quickly they can remove the tailings behind it. If you think about it there is no reason why a machine with rotating cutting bits like that couldn't chew through a thousand feet of clay a day if the tunnel lining and tailing removal can keep up.

The whole point of a bored urban tunnel is that it doesn't have to follow the street grid. This thing isn't going to have intermediate stations that need to be at major intersections.

So it looks like Musk is going to try to sneakily saddle the city/waterworks/sewer district with many expenses. This is what snakes do, and Musk is a snake. There is going to be plenty of Hollywood accounting. Musk will never reveal the true cost of this project to his company, and then he'll dismiss the costs he'll push on the public.

A straight tunnel would permit higher speed. For this thing to travel at 125mph the turning radius will need to be fairly high. Something is really fishy with this plan.


The actual cost will be way over $1 billion. The Boring Company has no new technology. They're just going to spec out a typical TBM and some other company will build it and they'll stamp their logo on it and it'll be all over Twitter and everyone will think that Musk invented the TBM.

This is not the "hyperloop". There is no vacuum tube. It's just going to be single-car light rail vehicles, possibly on narrow gauge track, running on batteries instead of third rail or overhead wire. Or maybe they'll totally change their minds. Or maybe they'll abandon the project when they realize it's going to cost billions and only bring in $100k per day in gross revenues.

I believe our forefathers used the term "folly" .

The last thing you'd want on a penny-pinching private tunnel project is million-dollar lawsuits with building owners along the route after their buildings start settling.

But it does seem like new EPB tunnel machines have largely solved the settlement problem by pumping foam into the clay ahead of the cutter, and then keeping the resulting slurry in a pressurized chamber behind the cutter.

• Video Link

Musk's whole Boring Company and Hyperloop raises red flags to me. He seems to know nothing about transit, yet he has all these plans nationwide. And for example, why is he wanting to invest in a tunnel from Baltimore to DC but also want to invest in Hyperloops that could do basically the same thing? I just don't understand any of Musk's transit ambitions personally - they always seem super rushed and ignore critical details/issues that would need addressed.

Hmm agenda much?

This is perfect project for Musk. We deep down know this hasn't a hope in hell of being completed properly ever by him without a government bailout plan.
By the planned finish date of this project Tesla should already be in liquidation!!!

Is musk hate the new altright thing? I mean yeah spacex is shitting all over the fat pork red states that build space tech. Not to mention the hit russia is taking. And Tesla is making oil companies piss themselves.


Idk. Makes me go hmmm.

No, his ideas are sometimes great. His business plans on the other hand leave a lot to be desired. Tesla will be gone before the "oil companies" have anything to worry about.

Two of Musk's big risky endeavors were Tesla and SpaceX, and people in the media crapped all over him and his supposed attempts to reshape from scratch the automotive and space launch industries. Now, every single legacy auto manufacturer cant make or plan electric vehicles fast enough, and SpaceX is literally NASA's go to for getting payloads into space. While Musk may not know all of the exact specifics of transportation now, I think he has proven himself an adept learner and one that quickly becomes proficient in the industry he is looking to turn upside down.

TL;DR: This isn't his first rodeo, and his naysayers typically end up eating their own shoe in the end.

Car companies didn't build electric cars in the past because they are unprofitable. The only thing Tesla has demonstrated is that there is a niche market out there for luxury electric vehicles. Meanwhile, the Model 3 has proven to be wildly unprofitable and the company is burning millions of dollars each day.

Traditional car companies can't do that because their stockholders and board won't tolerate that. Musk has created an aura of hype around himself that has motivated a bunch of suckers to throw large sums of cash at his adventures.

SpaceX is not making money. They are losing money on each mission. So NASA is saving money by paying a company that burns up investor cash to do its work.

Again, Musk's talent isn't technological innovation, it's getting people to endlessly throw money at his unprofitable activities. It's like the old saying about how the real talents in Hollywood are the accountants.

Isn't tech innovation? I didn't see any rockets relanding themselves before did you?

Nonsense. Musk isn't just super lucky to be able to find the richest suckers in the world. The large investors in his companies are crunching the numbers and assessing the value of the company. It's 2018!! This is how capital investment in tech companies works!

You're acting like he's swindling people because he's doing tech style investment in markets where that's not the norm. So SpaceX isn't profitable yet that's hardly a case for not investing in a company. I mean Salesforce has been around for 15+ years and it's still not profitable but pretty much anyone that knows about these things will tell you it's a good company to invest in!

Actually, yes. It's old news. Plus, the solid rocket boosters from the Space Shuttle were re-used many times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_DC-X

This Chicago proposal is not "tech". It's not a subsonic vehicle operating in a vacuum tube, ala the hyperloop. This is just going to be a rail vehicle in a tunnel running on batteries instead of overhead power or a third rail.

There are already many examples of trains operating at very high speed in tunnels. In Japan, France, China, and soon in California, trains will travel through tunnels at 200mph. The Chicago Muskpipe is only going to go 125mph.

What, exactly, is innovative about this project, other than its murky financing?

Theranos.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-o...-idUSKCN1GR34N



This is a repeat of Theranos. Muskrail is not tech just like how Theranos wasn't tech but it masqueraded as such. There is nothing technologically innovative, and it cannot be easily scaled like software or phones or laptop computers. It's a permanent, site-specific structure.

What it is is a privatization effort. Musk's partner at PayPal was Peter Thiel, who is *huge* on creating companies that look innocent but are in fact monopolies. In his own words, the mission of a monopoly is to deny that it is a monopoly. What is a monopoly more than a privately-owned railroad?

It took Amazon years before they made a profit too. Now Amazon is everywhere, and taking over every business it goes into.

Same was said about SpaceX especially grand claims of reusable rockets and heavy lifters and look where we are today. Same was said about Tesla when it was still hand assembling vehicles using Lotus chassis's and look where it is today.

This might work or it might not but I'm willing to let him try. He's earned that much.

Theranos was fraud. They never actually produced a working version of their system, misrepresented third party data as their own, and falsified demonstrations when they were challenged by investors.

For this to be "like" Theranos we'd 1) never be able to see a working version of the hyperloop 2) when demonstrations take place the departure & arrival times as well as speeds would be doctored to appear consistent with technological claims and 3) all components would be manufactured by a third party like GE who provided them to Musk under the auspices of testing & validation of Musk's proprietary system.

So really the two things are nothing alike. Which calls into question your truthfulness.

Wat? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_DC-X


Stages

1

Launch history

Total launches
12
Successes
8
Failures
1
Partial failures
3

Status

Retired

Never happened and was canceled. I have no Idea why you even included a link to that failure. Agenda? Why you would even link to something that is over 20 years ago retired is beyond my comprehension.

First flight
18 August 1993

Last flight
31 July 1996



That really weird IMO.


I was alive during the time men walked on the moon and I don't link to that. There are some members that were around in 1993 in their dippers. It does not change the fact that your link to a self landing rocket was even doable or even successful. I said enough for now. If you post BS again than I will really call you out on the mat.


jmecklenborg

Has an agenda, much?

Most of the hard right hates Musk for almost every reason under the sun.

I have been browsing right leaning websites and all they have for Tusk is pure vile. I think it has something to do with electric cars or he is progressive or libertarian in his politics and the far Right wants nothing to do with the guy unless they can destroy him.


Someone is on an agenda.


jmecklenborg has Been around for 15 years and posts once every few years on topics that flair him up.


Humm, a paid bot? Russian HRC spy? You be the judge.

He seemed to haved bubble up from WKRP in Cinci.

Perhaps he moved. Perhaps he only hates Musk and not Chicagoland.


Inquiring minds would like to know.

It doesn't have to be "tech" as you put it. A ton of new and huge companies are simply finding a new and better method of doing the same old thing.

Streaming isn't new, but Netflix is worth billions because it found a way to get content to consumers using that platform and allowing them to ditch established methods like cable and satellite tv.

Lyft and Uber are essentially just cab companies, and yet they too are worth billions because they found a better method of getting rides to consumers.

GrubHub, DoorDash, TaskRabbit are all competing with an already well established and low tech business: food delivery. Yet they have streamlined it and lowered the costs for consumers and allowed restaurants that did not want to have the associated cost of delivery (having extra employees as drivers, POS/register system for coordinating orders, additional insurance for the driver's vehicles, etc.) be able to compete with pizza and Chinese joints that do.

A lot of these companies I mentioned (plus innumerable more that I haven't) have lost or are currently losing BILLIONS. They still have incredible value though, because of the massive potential future cash flow. Facebook wasn't making any money for almost a decade when it first came out, and now its revenues are in the billions. Amazon barely makes a profit, but its one of the most valuable companies in the world, and has completely upended how people shop. You cannot look at a brand new company and compare its P/E ratio, P/L & balance sheets to a company like Proctor and Gamble and say, well, its not earning anything at the moment, "shut 'er down, Bob!" That's completely asinine, and clearly not the way the business world works. (thankfully)

You need to approach the Boring Company from this same perspective. Currently, tunneling for transportation is incredibly expensive, and Musk knows this. That is why he is attempting to turn all we know about that upside down by doing it far faster and far cheaper than anyone else has before. You claim it can't be done. I ask you then, give me the project blueprints and show me the exact technology and methods Musk is using for you to make such a claim, because clearly you have access to them and have reviewed them in depth to know with such certainty that it cannot be done. Unless you know something that none of us don't, I really don't think its fair for you to say that what Musk is proposing is neither possible nor financially prudent.

Absolutely everything. You either have an inability to see that, or are at this point simply deriving joy out of being a contrarian.

I agree wholeheartedly, left of center. Honestly, I see absolutely no reason why everyone seems to be shitting all over this proposal, insulting Musk, Tesla, everything about him and his companies, etc... etc... Sure, some of his plans don't always work out the way he had hoped (whether measured in cost, time, or some other metric), but damn it, he's pretty much the real-life Stark, if you will. Yes, I just brought Ironman into the discussion. ;)

Aaron (Glowrock)

Seriously jmecklenborg, what in the ever loving hell is your problem??? You're behaving like a freaking troll right now, and I for one find it to be completely out of line. It's one thing to have doubts about a particular project or proposal's success, it's yet another to continually crap all over every single freaking thing someone does.

Aaron (Glowrock)

No one will ever be satisfied with any project. This is one that generates the least friction in my opinion. It’s not mired in politics, property disputes, and layers of public financing.

Oh look, it might get done sooner than the navy pier flyover. Shocker.

You’d think all of Chicago would be talking about this? They aren’t or it’s just “yeah it sounds really cool.” Meanwhile people will pontificate over the social impacts and excessive spending for weeks over a single CTA station. The fact that the public seems mum on this project is a good thing. If it gets built it will be a glorious surprise.

When it comes to big public projects, usually it's a situation of too many cooks spoil the broth. Same for major development proposal meetings. Honestly, there's something to be said for the mayor or a particular alderman just saying something is going to happen, period, no questions asked. People can be too freaking self-absorbed and, frankly, too stupid to have an informed opinion on any given topic, especially something that can be as involved as a transit line or a major development of some sort.

(And now I'll let myself out before my asbestos underwear begins to melt from the attacks I'll be facing from everyone shortly! :) )

Aaron (Glowrock)

SpaceX is a private company, how would you know if they are making money or not? Go away troll.

Two quick points:

I find it really odd and perplexing that so many of you guys are against this so strongly. Its like you'll be for California spending like 60 billion(it will be much more) on a rail system that will take two decades to build and will be 100% funded by tax payers but seem outraged at the idea of a private business doing something innovative. Please excuse me when I assume your volatility against the free market may have more to do with your opposition than anything else?

Second, wouldn't you guys be afraid of the blue line losing some passengers?


Also, I find a lot of small thinking here. He cant do this or that. He has a company that goes to space, yet digging a damn tunnel which we have been doing for centuries seems impossible to some.

I don't think anyone here opposes the project. We just have really severe doubts that it can be accomplished as promised.

No, there's some flat-out opposition to Musk and this project, Mr Downtown. Why that is, I have no idea. There's no money coming from the city, there's literally no loss whatsoever for Chicago, so why not let Musk/Boring give it a shot?

Aaron (Glowrock)

Well, I wish we knew for sure that was the case. But this city has quite the history of getting roped into bailing out "no public money will be needed" projects. I suspect that's the real reason behind some of the opposition.

Because Musk's rabid fanboys inspire a separate group of equally rabid haters.

While Musk's companies have yet to achieve sustained profitability, others have already pointed out that the finance industry understands and accepts that A) many tech investments will take years to turn a profit, B) many tech investments will never turn a profit, C) the tech investments that do turn a profit will generate enormous profits. Just like at a racetrack, most bets will be losing ones but if you win big enough when you do win, it doesn't matter.

Musk is an unusually charismatic, visionary CEO who inspires lots of geeky-minded people, but that's really no different from how geeks split previously on Apple vs. PC. Gotta pick a side so you have somewhere to belong, lol. That same charisma, though, tends to lower speedbumps for Musk's business plans or just make certain obstacles disappear, which is a key advantage he possesses that others do not.

Well, that's why we need to see the contract. IIRC it's been stated that this deal will need to go to City Council for final approval so the agreement itself should become available for public review at some point.

I know the National and international news is talking about it a lot. Tons of news articles from every news source in every major language on the planet.


https://news.google.com/stories/CAAq...S&ceid=US%3Aen




• Video Link

• Video Link

• Video Link



https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/14/1...-cost-estimate

Yeah it was dumb for people to spend so much money putting people in aluminum tubes and flying millions of them per day at 500MPH to their destinations. Soooo stupid I can’t believe that anyone was that dumb to waste all that money.
We really shouldn’t attempt further progress. We are just fine how things are. No need to convert any more transportation things to electric and cut emissions. It’s just too expensive and it will make people on the internet mad.


Here is pretty much the abreviated news interview at block 37


Musk really liked the way Chicago can approve and move on projects


• Video Link


many other videos to choose from

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ESAA%253D%253D

like this one.

• Video Link

California HSR and an airport shuttle (like the Shanghai Maglev) have absolutely nothing in common.

Please research the history of privately built intercity railroads in the United States (which is all of them except for the 250~ mile Cincinnati Southern Railroad which was financed by and is still owned by the City of Cincinnati) and the innumerable problems it has caused over their 100+ year history.

Please research public transportation when it was privately built and owned. It caused innumerable problems. Streetcars, elevated, commuter rail, and a few of the early subway lines. No free transfers, for starters.

For decades the progressive movement fought for public ownership of streetcar and subway networks, and for public ownership of railroads. It is widely documented that operation of U.S. railroads improved dramatically during WWI, when the Federal Government took over railroad operations to prevent price gouging.

The Interstate Highway System was built by the federal government and made toll-free in large part to shatter the stranglehold of railroads and transit companies in commuting and intercity travel and shipping.

Musk's vision is for a return to the 1800s, when private companies still owned major pieces of infrastructure. Peter Thiel is pro-monopoly as well. Musk wants to privatize Mars as well.

Tech geeks: be very, very careful what you wish for.

^^^ Give me a break, the construction of transcontinental steam era railroads in the 1800's has literally nothing to do with the construction of under ground tunnels for high speed electric vehicles in the 21st century. Also, the manifest destiny era was not holy by any means, but you have to admit the incentive systems that drove the construction of that infrastructure were on point. The division of the West via homestead and railway rights of way was the greatest transfer of wealth to the public in human history. The only other historical example that even comes close was Julius Ceasar's relocation of mass numbers of impoverished Roman citizens from the city of Rome to recently conquered territories giving them land in an attempt to fix the long broken aristocratic tenancies of the Republic. And where exactly do you think the Americans of the 1800's got the idea for Homestead? From those very Roman land reforms. I don't think the lack of free transfers is a serious criticism in light of what was accomplished.

Yeah the private railways that built the L really fucked us when they went out of business and stuck the tax payers with this useless mass transit sytem that still is operating in most places on the tracks they built...

:rolleyes:

^ I hear ya, but give Friend of the Friends of the Parking Lot Mr D a break here... I don’t think he was implying at all that this isn’t a good investment.

This is more about Government management. Will us taxpayers be the backstop for cost overruns? We shouldn’t be, and the City Council has an obligation to protect us contractually before blindly rubber stamping this through like they always have in the past.

No Tie Day?

Also, "Attrack?"

The financing of the eastern railroads (with the anomalous exception of the Cincinnati Southern) was quite different from the transcontinental railroads. There was no homesteading in the east but there was ALL KINDS of trickery and swindling going on.

This extended to the streetcar, interurban, and traction companies. The public HATED these companies because their first priority was stockholders, not service to the public. In my hometown, the streetcar company executives orchestrated securities fraud that combined the buying power of the streetcar company with their own personal cash. So they set the thing up so that the streetcar company was burdened with all the risk. They made money and the streetcar company lost money. Oh well, they got paid.

Musk, Peter Thiel, and the rest of Silicon Valley want privatized transit and privatized roads. The Boring company's goal isn't to "shatter" LA's traffic, it's to build private highways that only accept travel from Tesla's cars. So the tunnel wouldn't make money but Musk and his investors will make money from the car business with the exclusive roads that only his cars can use.

What, exactly, is the concern here? There isn’t a public alternative that is being displaced by this service (the main competitor is Taxi/Rideshare, not the Blhe Line). The concern with such natural monopolies is that there is overpricing/under provision of services due to the lack of competition—and that might have still been a concern had the City not already placed conditions on prices and services, which is generally the optimal solution for dealing with such natural monopolies.

Because people who use the private infrastructure won't see any value in maintaining the public alternative.

This comment demonstrates exactly how little you actually know about what you are spouting off about. Tesla actually owns a huge array of patents for and relating to electric cars. This extends to battery technology, charger technology, distribution tech, and the very cars themselves. Guess what Tesla has done with those patents???

They've open sourced almost all of them and allowed even their competitors to license the tech and use it. Why? Because you are never going to change the entire automobile market on your own, it's too large. Instead Musk has made a point of inovating so rapidly that others can't keep up and then allowing those competitors to use stuff he has developed (like the plug that nearly all electric cars now use) essentially changing and setting the industry standard. It's not good for Tesla to have proprietary parts that only work with their cars. They want you to be able to pull up to a charging station and KNOW your car will work because everyone uses the same connector, the Tesla connector. Tesla is known for being one of the biggest corporate proponents of "open source" and you are suggesting their ulterior motive is to monopolize transportation and lock everyone else out. That literally makes no sense...

This model is even more genius because he doesn't need to open source these patents forever. Tesla can always get everyone hooked on the Tesla plug and then, when their license agreements expire, start charging everyone $10/plug or something like that in the renewal agreement. Tesla is not an automobile company, it is a technology company and it's run from that perspective. Musk will probably never even end up doing what I just mentioned (charging for stuff he once open sourced) because by the time the inital license agreements run out for other users of these patents, Tesla will probably have already made that tech obsolete.

Here is Elon Musk's letter announcing the sharing of all Tesla patents. He doesn't exactly sound like he is motivated by fucking everyone else over like you suggest:

https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-p...are-belong-you

Its honestly mostly one person...

The Boring Company tunnel isn't really going to compete with the blue line, even though it looks to be the case when looking at the proposed route, as it mirrors almost exactly the route the Blue line takes.

Taking the blue to the airport costs $2.50 ($5.00 when hopping on from the airport). The Musk project will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $25, a much higher price point. The Musk tunnel will be targeting a higher end demographic, particularly business travelers (whose companies pay for their transportation costs) who would probably take a cab to the Loop from ORD rather than the L. Since the Musk tunnel wont have any other stop in between Block 37 and ORD, it will not be cannibalizing any CTA traffic along the route, and will be serving suits and executives who only want to go between the Loop and the airport.


Christ, tell me about it. Some people just don't get it I suppose.

You don't need to be a Musk fan boy to be excited for this project. There's two outcomes, it works and its great for the city, or its financially impossible and the project stops. That's it. The city and taxpayers lose nothing.

Not sure why some people are so belligerently against this project...

+1

So you mean to tell me that you don't think people use BOTH public and private forms of transit? And those people can't see value in maintaining the L and Metra infrastructure even if they <gasp!> take the Tesla tunnel thing to O'Hare? Really?

Honestly, I still think everyone railing against Musk's/Boring's proposal is just grasping at straws and clutching their pearls at this point...

Aaron (Glowrock)

It’s private infrastructure replacing private “infrastructure”

CTA ridership will not be diminished.

Correct. We are seeing it already with Libertarians, paid shills, and other dependable public transportation opponents arguing that any and all public transportation planning should be halted since driverless cars will completely, 100% solve traffic congestion, and they'll be here in 2 years (they said 2 years 5 years ago). What these people don't understand is that whatever capacity improvements are enabled by driverless cars will induce more demand. So it's not going to accomplish much. Plus, it's going to be much more expensive to ride in a driverless cab than to take a traditional city bus. And much, much more than a driverless city bus, which will likely actually make money.

Also, it should be pointed out that the same characters who advocate abandoning all rail transit planning aren't out there arguing to abandon highway planning, even though they claim that the capacity of existing highway infrastructure will be increased.

Yeah I know about that. It's a distraction from the vertical integration that Musk is attempting to pull off.

Again, no automobile company has attempted to build its own private roads and in fact we have almost zero private toll roads anywhere in the United States. The whole "skate" issue is troubling because a skate that travels on rails could be considered a railroad under the law, and railroads have the power of eminent domain.

I'll repeat that so people pay attention -- the states and federal government frequently granted the power of eminent domain to privately-owned railroads when they were built in the 1800s and that is still on the books. Just a few million in venture capital can easily buy off a Republican state legislature so we'll have the Muskman firing up bulldozers straight through your town so his Tesla cars -- and only his cars -- can travel on "skates" in some combination of surface and tunnel past and beneath the undesireables.

Imagine that if you lived in LA that your Tesla (and only Tesla owners) could travel from LAX to Wilshire underground, then from that point under the mountains to the San Fernando Valley. That's what this guy is aiming for.

Since the beginning of time there have always been guys like this ^^^ guy....... negative people.

When the Wright brothers were trying to fly, there were people like jmecklinborg saying, "it will never work"... "surely they are trying to change travel and take over the world"... and look at what the Wright brothers have accomplished.

When space exploration was first considered, there were those who said we will never put a man on the moon... and if someone does, "surely they are trying to take over the world"... and look at what has happened.

There will always be doubters, people with hidden agenda's and negative nanny's like jmecklinborg... they doubted whether the car could work... whether the T.V. would work... telephone... etc., etc., etc.

THAT IS THE STORY OF PROGRESS.

In this day and age, for Musk to be spending his own money?! ... we all have to marvel at that. The upside if this succeeds is through the roof. The downside if he fails is worth the risk that he succeeds. Conspiracy theories aside, this is as close to a win, win as we will ever see in business and public transportation.

.

The last time a California billionaire came into town willing to spend his own money to bring something great to the city (George Lucus, cough cough) a bunch of cranky old fuckfaces drove him out of town so that they could keep parking their vans at the Soldier field lot and stuff their faces with ribs and beer before Bears Games.

Yep, and they are bizarrely proud of it.

Trolls are going to troll, eh? I swear, you've lost your marbles, dude... :shrug:

Aaron (Glowrock)