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-   -   CHICAGO: Transit Developments (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101657)

lawfin Apr 29, 2011 5:15 AM

^^^Cool maps!

IF Chicago could do my dream and add an Ahland and a Western Subway then the the north side at least would largely look somewhat similiar to that Paris map at least with over lap circles. That makes sense I guess I did a spread sheet a few years back that showed that Chicago's north side writ large is ~ 20,000K /sq mile the north lake front roughly defined as the northside neighborhoods abutting the lake / lincoln park and the next adjacent to the west if I recall come in at close to 30,000/ sq mile.....

still not paris dense by exceptionally dense for NA and for the good 'ole USA in particuliar

Beta_Magellan Apr 29, 2011 2:52 PM

One of the big differences between Chicago and Paris, though, is that Paris doesn’t have a huge, centralized employment center at its core like the Loop, so it can support a complex network of underground lines through its core (it also helps that it doesn’t have a giant lake on one side). The last serious proposal for a new line on the north side—the Lakefront Subway from the 1980 plan. From chicago-l.org:

Quote:

Construct a North Lakefront Line, north from Michigan Avenue along the lake to Belmont or Diversey, then west to a connection with the Howard/Ravenswood right-of-way. In the future, the line could be extended north to replace the aging Ravenswood Line or as a new line north along the lakefront. A second suggested alignment was east from Kimball along the Ravenswood, continuing east along Lawrence, then south in a subway along Broadway and Clark Street to the CBD.
It’s still CBD-centric (the line would be through-routed with a South Lakefront Line), but it definitely shows that the definitely has the density to support a lot of heavy rail on the north side, putting everyone there within walking distance.

emathias Apr 29, 2011 4:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta_Magellan (Post 5259716)
One of the big differences between Chicago and Paris, though, is that Paris doesn’t have a huge, centralized employment center at its core like the Loop,
...

This is true, and particularly important because it's not only residential density that matters, but also the evenness of destinations spread across the service area.

Ridership on lines that only pick up people over the first half of the stops and only drop off people on the second half of the stops will never be able to match ridership on lines where people both arrive and depart throughout the line. The CTA mostly has lines where people get one in the first half and get off on the second half. Rare is the rider who gets on at Belmont on the Blue Line and gets off at Jefferson Park, or other similar examples. You do so more of that during non-peak times, but at peak times nearly everyone is getting one in the neighborhoods and getting off downtown. That constrains the maximum run load of a car to about the maximum number of people who could be on the car at any one time. However, if employment destinations were more evenly spread along the line, you'd get people getting on and getting off, and the run capacity could be far higher, which is more efficient.

That's something that is mostly outside the purvey of the CTA, but something that perhaps the City could try to encourage. More small employment centers at various points along "L" lines - perhaps a few more office buildings within walking distance of the Jefferson Park station, a few more near Wilson, more west of McCormick Place (assuming the addition of a Green Line station near Cermak), continued encouragement of development near the junction of the Pink and Blue lines, more near Howard, maybe some near 63rd between Michigan and Stewart, near Cumberland, and near the Yellow Line's two stations, just to name a few. There are certainly places along the Orange Line that could benefit from dense commercial development, too.

Nowhereman1280 Apr 29, 2011 5:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emathias (Post 5259808)
This is true, and particularly important because it's not only residential density that matters, but also the evenness of destinations spread across the service area.

Ridership on lines that only pick up people over the first half of the stops and only drop off people on the second half of the stops will never be able to match ridership on lines where people both arrive and depart throughout the line. The CTA mostly has lines where people get one in the first half and get off on the second half. Rare is the rider who gets on at Belmont on the Blue Line and gets off at Jefferson Park, or other similar examples.

I understand your point, but would like to point out that your example is a poor one. The Northwest Blue Line is perhaps the most evenly used line in the system. Not only are both ends of the line anchored by major destinations (O'Hare and the Loop), but the entirety of the line contains a variety of destination points. Mainly I am thinking of Jefferson Park, which is a huge transfer node and has some retail, Cumberland/Rosemont which both have a huge number of reverse commuters getting on and off, and Damen which is a huge shopping and nightlife destination. Overall probably half of the stops on the NW Blue are destination stops while only about half of them are pure residential collectors.

I would even suggest that the CTA needs to run more frequent reverse service during rush hours as I reverse commute to Cumberland from Belmont or Logan Square every day and the train is invariably crowded. It's rare that I ever am able to find a seat.

sammyg Apr 29, 2011 6:46 PM

I think the hub-and-spoke system is preventing a lot of ridership, even though Chicago has a much more concentrated core than Paris. I live less than 1/8 of a mile from the Brown Line in Lincoln Square, but unless I'm going somewhere directly on the Brown line, I just hop a bus, bike, or yes, drive because the traffic out in the neighborhoods isn't bad enough to justify going all the way into the loop and back out.

Nowhereman1280 Apr 29, 2011 6:50 PM

^^^ Which is why Chicago has the largest bus system in the world... To be honest we don't really need neighborhood to neighborhood rail connections. We just need connections to major destinations that are fed by collector buses. As much as I would like a Diversey subway from Logan Square to Lincoln Park, it just doesn't make sense when the Diversey bus takes all of 15 minutes to travel that route and has much more frequent service than a train would.

ardecila Apr 29, 2011 7:24 PM

Yeah, but I do think there needs to be at least one east-west connection across the North Side. During rush hours, every east-west street from Madison all the way up to Lake-Cook Road is jammed solid.

This is why the Yellow Line is such a valuable transit asset if it is extended, since it allows people to quickly exit the Edens and take a train to virtually anywhere on the North Lakefront. (I've always thought a few Red Line trains should extend to Skokie)

It's also why the Brown Line extension to Jeff Park is such a good idea... I also mentioned my idea for an Irving Park LRT a few pages back, modeled after Eglinton in Toronto or Gold Line Eastside in LA.

Nowhereman1280 Apr 29, 2011 8:00 PM

^^^ I agree that the Brown Line to Jeff Park makes sense simply because it offers service between two major destination areas, the O'Hare airport and office market and Lakeview/Lincoln Park/Gold Coast/ North Downtown. The construction of such a line would be justified solely by the massive number of people taking it to the airport.

sammyg Apr 29, 2011 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 5260065)
Yeah, but I do think there needs to be at least one east-west connection across the North Side. During rush hours, every east-west street from Madison all the way up to Lake-Cook Road is jammed solid.

This is really true, and a big reason I wish we could get a few of the express busses back - losing the X80 Irving Park was awful for a lot of people I know.

ardecila Apr 30, 2011 4:41 AM

Well, the express buses weren't really "express" enough to make much of a dent in travel times. The buses moved faster, but they came less frequently, so the total time was often the same as the local. I took the 80/X80 every day a few summers ago; without Bus Tracker, you're gonna get on the first bus that comes.

If they bring them back, I hope they do it right, with stops every half-mile like an L line, frequent service, and prepaid boarding.

On a side note, I really hope the redistricting puts the area around the Irving Park Blue Line station into a single ward. It should be a great spot for TOD but it's split between Laurino's 39th and Reboyras' 30th. Actually, a lot of L stations are split between wards, which is really pretty bad from a development perspective.

emathias Apr 30, 2011 2:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 (Post 5259875)
...
I would even suggest that the CTA needs to run more frequent reverse service during rush hours as I reverse commute to Cumberland from Belmont or Logan Square every day and the train is invariably crowded. It's rare that I ever am able to find a seat.

As long as you can get on the train during rush hour, I don't think more trains are warranted. Most people should be standing at rush hour, as it's when the CTA is most compelling to use and operating at peak efficiency means they probably (hopefully) turn a profit on rush hour runs that helps offset costs for the non-rush runs.

Just be glad that "crowded" on the CTA is still rarely as bad as New York and never, ever, as bad as most Asian subway or bus systems (ever ridden a bus in Beijing at rush hour?)

Beta_Magellan Apr 30, 2011 4:54 PM

In defense of Nowhereman’s call for higher reverse-commute frequencies on the Blue Line, it’s worth noting that a lot of downtown trains go all the way to Forest Park and are held there—although the number of passengers going to the Medical District might offset this, to me it seems like reversing trains at UIC-Halsted (or, in the longer-run, building a similar facility at the Medical District, as ardecila suggested a couple of pages ago) would be more effective than running trains every 3-4 minutes to Forest Park, which isn’t nearly as popular with reverse commuters as Cumberland, Rosemont and O’Hare.

Finally, as someone who has rode buses and trains during rush hour in Beijing, I have to say that the evening rush on the Hyde Park and South Shore-bound buses are almost there—sometimes it’s futile trying to board anywhere past Van Buren. I think in large part it’s a scheduling/reliability issues—buses getting delayed, leading to huge crunches but not so closely bunched that there’s another one behind, but I think capacity’s also getting pressed—even when they are bunched often both buses fill up. Off-peak can be standing-room only too (especially on a nice day like yesterday). Although you’re right about having all seats filled and a lot of standing passengers indicates good resource utilization, buses don’t always have the speed and reliability to offset the lack of comfort (if I didn’t have to transfer to the subway downtown I would have switched to Metra long ago).

Back on the topic of trains, though, I think most of the problems with only having standing room on the El are made worse by commuter’s habits. People tend to bunch up by the doors, so even if passengers do spread through the whole car you have to fight especially hard to get out. Even though I was packed like a Sardine on Beijing’s Line 1, I never really came close to missing a stop due to the way people were packed—tight, but not clumpy.

Maybe it’s just because my native heavy rail system is Boston’s T, but I for one look forward to longitudinal seating.

denizen467 Apr 30, 2011 7:32 PM

Lake Shore Drive, or at least the northern half, is now at more than half L.E.D.-illuminated, and the switchover seems to be progressing fast. There are some stretches with sodium vapor on one side and LED on the other side, which might make for an interesting night photograph. If anyone wants to record a rare sight before it disappears into the history books, one of these nights might not be a bad idea; we even have respite from the rain.

I wonder how this all looks from the Hancock observatory?

denizen467 Apr 30, 2011 8:02 PM

Finally!


http://theexpiredmeter.com/2011/04/c...-intersection/

April 28th, 2011
City Unveils Bold New Reconfiguration Plan For Damen-Elston-Fullerton Intersection
Work For Proposed Elston Bypass Could Start In 2013

...

This plan to streamline a chaotic six-corner intersection into three distinct four corner intersections was chosen over competing plans to build an overpass or an underpass on Fullerton.

While the other plans would require two to three years of construction and not necessarily solve all the problems with the status quo, this proposal would only require a year of road work.

But, the proposed reroute would require the city to acquire and demolish select buildings and displace several businesses in the path of the proposed Elston bypass. This includes cutting into a building owned by Midtown Tennis Club at Damen & Elston, land owned by Vienna Beef at 2501 N. Damen, and completely demolishing the buildings currently housing Whirly Ball at 1880 W. Fullerton and Dunkin’ Donuts located at 1927 W. Fullerton.

"Of course the businesses affected were disappointed,” said Chriss Wuellner of CDOT. “However, we will be able to provide relocation assistance."

Waguespack plans to work with displaced businesses to try to relocate them within the ward or nearby.

...

http://theexpiredmeter.com/wp-conten...aphic-crop.jpg

WillPostPix Apr 30, 2011 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denizen467 (Post 5261068)
Finally!


http://theexpiredmeter.com/2011/04/c...-intersection/

April 28th, 2011
City Unveils Bold New Reconfiguration Plan For Damen-Elston-Fullerton Intersection
Work For Proposed Elston Bypass Could Start In 2013

...

This plan to streamline a chaotic six-corner intersection into three distinct four corner intersections was chosen over competing plans to build an overpass or an underpass on Fullerton.

While the other plans would require two to three years of construction and not necessarily solve all the problems with the status quo, this proposal would only require a year of road work.

But, the proposed reroute would require the city to acquire and demolish select buildings and displace several businesses in the path of the proposed Elston bypass. This includes cutting into a building owned by Midtown Tennis Club at Damen & Elston, land owned by Vienna Beef at 2501 N. Damen, and completely demolishing the buildings currently housing Whirly Ball at 1880 W. Fullerton and Dunkin’ Donuts located at 1927 W. Fullerton.

"Of course the businesses affected were disappointed,” said Chriss Wuellner of CDOT. “However, we will be able to provide relocation assistance."

Waguespack plans to work with displaced businesses to try to relocate them within the ward or nearby.

...

http://theexpiredmeter.com/wp-conten...aphic-crop.jpg

too bad about the whirly ball because it IS kind of fun but I knew this kid who got a concussion one time

the pope May 1, 2011 3:33 AM

^at least the church's chicken is safe

ardecila May 1, 2011 6:58 AM

Well, as steve vance pointed out, it's troubling that CDOT isn't really looking to fill in the gap on the Damen bike lane. To my mind, filling in obvious gaps like this is even more important than expanding the network. If Rahm wants to add mileage to the bike network, he can get a half-mile first start by telling CDOT to put in the bike lane.

It would also be cool to preserve the remaining odd pieces of the former Elston right-of-way as landscaped green space, a nod to the intersection's former configuration. Right now, it looks like they plan to sell it off to adjacent landowners.

Beta_Magellan May 1, 2011 4:24 PM

Does the Damen bike lane predate or postdate the parking meter sale? That might have something to do with the lack of lane.

Also, everyone can read Vance’s post here.

stevevance May 2, 2011 1:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta_Magellan (Post 5261705)
Does the Damen bike lane predate or postdate the parking meter sale? That might have something to do with the lack of lane.

The lack of a bike lane on Damen in the .25 mile segment where it's missing has to do with the "required" lane capacity. The traffic engineers present explained that to "make the intersection work the way it's supposed to" there needs to be two lanes in each direction through the Damen intersections (with Fullerton and Elston respectively).

But, a meeting attendee asked the Benesch staff member standing near the traffic simulation animation if there was analysis done on 1 fewer lane (which would allow a bike lane to be added).

Bus riders who board/alight here will probably appreciate the more spacious sidewalks.

(I'll be uploading pictures of the public meeting documents later tonight.)

ardecila May 2, 2011 2:12 AM

Welcome to the forum! ;)

The plan doesn't show any metered spaces through the intersection zone. I don't know why that would interfere with attempts to put in a bike lane. If Street Views are to be believed, all street parking in the bike-lane gap is unmetered, and more than half of it is either yellow-curb or standing zone. (There's also an awesome shot of a cyclist flipping off the Street View camera)


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