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-   -   CHICAGO: Transit Developments (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101657)

emathias Oct 19, 2009 5:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VivaLFuego (Post 4511775)
...
Besides, in the meantime, the 120 and 121 operate via Lower Wacker and connect Navy Pier and the Metra stations ...

Those only run weekdays at rush hour, and they're not found on any CTA maps as of September and the current online one(s). 125 is there, though, so the rush-hour only excuse can't be used for the 120 and 121 if it's not used for the 125.

denizen467 Oct 19, 2009 9:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emathias (Post 4511715)
re-open the Lasalle Street tunnel

what's that?

orulz Oct 19, 2009 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denizen467 (Post 4512058)
what's that?

A streetcar tunnel under the river. There are three, all unused: La Salle, Washington, and Van Buren.

Those tunnels are interesting. Seems a waste to not use them for something. Usually when somebody mentions reuisng them on here, it's in the context of a pedway extension.

VivaLFuego Oct 19, 2009 2:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emathias (Post 4511912)
Those only run weekdays at rush hour, and they're not found on any CTA maps as of September and the current online one(s). 125 is there, though, so the rush-hour only excuse can't be used for the 120 and 121 if it's not used for the 125.

If demand for high service levels (across multiple routes serving similar O/D pairings via slightly different routings) only exists in rush hour, I think it speaks volumes to the near-term viability of a quasi-fixed-guideway service along Carroll.

Very loosely speaking, the West Loop<-> Navy Pier/Mag Mile routes include the 120, 121, 124, 125, and 157, of which only the 124 and 157 operate during off-peak hours and only the 124 operates on weekends.

But I suppose my broader point is that, given that Lower Wacker exists as a partially-grade separated higher-speed thoroughfare with near-zero pedestrian conflicts, how would the capital costs for making it a more efficient busway compare to the capital costs to make Carroll Ave operable, and are the latter costs worth it for the benefit?

Mr Downtown Oct 19, 2009 2:49 PM

The 120-series buses are not shown on the main CTA map because of the complications of showing lines on two different levels. Instead, they have their own individual route maps in the lower right corner of the folded sheet. We used to laughingly call them the cognoscenti routes. If you don't already know about them, it's hard to find out.

As for the LaSalle Street tunnel, the Lake Street subway cut through the south approach.

emathias Oct 19, 2009 3:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 4512270)
...
As for the LaSalle Street tunnel, the Lake Street subway cut through the south approach.

DESTROY THE SUBWAY! Oh ... wait ...

the urban politician Oct 19, 2009 3:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VivaLFuego (Post 4512230)
If demand for high service levels (across multiple routes serving similar O/D pairings via slightly different routings) only exists in rush hour, I think it speaks volumes to the near-term viability of a quasi-fixed-guideway service along Carroll.

^ Isn't part of the reason for the lack of "demand" due to the fact that for many years the city has been running a FREE trolley between the west loop stations and Navy Pier?

Plus, wouldn't the existence of such a service generate more demand that may not have existed before? You're clearly the expert, but at some point it just seems to make sense that a faster way to get between Mag Mile/E Streeterville and the West Loop other than routine bus service would make sense.

emathias Oct 19, 2009 3:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VivaLFuego (Post 4512230)
Demand ...
But I suppose my broader point is that, given that Lower Wacker exists as a partially-grade separated higher-speed thoroughfare with near-zero pedestrian conflicts, how would the capital costs for making it a more efficient busway compare to the capital costs to make Carroll Ave operable, and are the latter costs worth it for the benefit?

The difference is that no one boards between Union Station and Lower Michigan, whereas a Caroll Street route would generate additional demand from stops along the way, while using the true grade separation to keep things moving.

I still think an underground route directly through the Loop would be better, but that would also cost 10 times as much.

ardecila Oct 19, 2009 5:27 PM

^^ That's the idea of the Monroe Transitway... a low-level bus subway in the heart of the Loop.

It's interesting to compare the current plan of the 3 transitways with the original plan for the Central Area Circulator. Apparently, old ideas never die, but specific routings change. Blue is the current plan, pink is the former one.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5862/circulator.jpg

Mr Downtown Oct 19, 2009 5:45 PM

Well, the original plan for the Circulator was to use Carroll. Only near the end of the process did they decide it was geometrically problematic and abandon it for Kinzie.

Rizzo Oct 19, 2009 5:48 PM

Edit

Tom In Chicago Oct 19, 2009 5:48 PM

Does anyone know where I can find KML files for Google Earth that overlays the CTA, Metra and South Shore rail lines and stations? I haven't found anything suitable and figured someone here probably has seen one. . .

. . .

emathias Oct 19, 2009 7:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago (Post 4512568)
Does anyone know where I can find KML files for Google Earth that overlays the CTA, Metra and South Shore rail lines and stations? I haven't found anything suitable and figured someone here probably has seen one. . .

. . .

I thought it already did that if you enabled transportation.

ardecila Oct 19, 2009 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago (Post 4512568)
Does anyone know where I can find KML files for Google Earth that overlays the CTA, Metra and South Shore rail lines and stations? I haven't found anything suitable and figured someone here probably has seen one. . .

. . .

Google Earth already has this on the transportation layers under Places of Interest<Transportation<Rail (or Subway for CTA). Stations and lines have "fade-out" distances, zoom levels at which they disappear. This is to avoid visual clutter. Are you seeking something that eliminates this, so you can see the entire network and all stations in one view?

ardecila Oct 19, 2009 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VivaLFuego (Post 4511775)
Given the city's $500 million operating deficit, I wouldn't mind if the city holds off on putting money into these improvements for a few years or until it comes via earmark (any formula-based capital improvement funds are probably best spent on other transit and road needs anyhow).

From CDOT:

"We anticipate issuing a Request for Proposals for a Carroll Avenue Transitway Alternatives Analysis by year end. This study is required by the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) for the project to be eligible for federal capital funding."

Apparently, the city is going to go for a New Starts/Small Starts funding source. Hopefully after the Circulator debacle, Daley has learned enough to use TIF funds for the local match instead of relying on the state.

The Alternatives Analysis will more than likely also examine routes on Lower Wacker and Kinzie. How fast the study progresses is entirely dependent on whether this thing has political backing - see the Circle Line, where "Alternatives Analysis" has gone on for years.

Mr. Downtown - the situation in the 90s on Carroll was different than today. Trump's buyout of the Sun-Times site has removed all freight traffic from UP's Carroll Avenue line. That leaves only corridor property owners and their loading docks to contend with. The city has moved to reserve right-of-way at K Station, 300 N. LaSalle, 353 N. Clark, and Trump, which should put a Carroll Avenue routing into the realm of financial feasibility, and the dense development (not there in the 90s) should ensure a good flow of users onto such a line.

VivaLFuego Oct 20, 2009 3:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 4513218)
From CDOT:

"We anticipate issuing a Request for Proposals for a Carroll Avenue Transitway Alternatives Analysis by year end. This study is required by the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) for the project to be eligible for federal capital funding."

Apparently, the city is going to go for a New Starts/Small Starts funding source. Hopefully after the Circulator debacle, Daley has learned enough to use TIF funds for the local match instead of relying on the state.

Does anyone else remember the Ogden-Navy Pier Transitway Alternatives Analysis a few years ago? :jester:

http://www.transitchicago.com/news/d...ArticleId=1080

This town cracks me up. At least with Airport Express (Loop Transportation Center, completed 1985) and the Orange Line extension (EIS completed mid-1980s), a couple decades had passed ...

ardecila Oct 20, 2009 5:07 AM

^^ A recent article claimed that intense downtown development would change the results of the original Alternatives Analysis. IIRC, ridership projections in the original survey were fairly lackluster. I guess CDOT is hoping to use the new towers along the corridor as an excuse to boost ridership projections and, by extension, the cost-effectiveness rating.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Ogden part of the survey is no longer needed, so a new analysis is required of just the Carroll/Clinton portion. I mean, the original AA extended all the way to North Riverside, for chrissake... Additional transit in the rough area of the Ogden corridor was provided when Pink Line service was started. I honestly have no idea why an Ogden light-rail line was ever even in consideration... :koko: Must have been the pet project of some politician.

Mr Downtown Oct 20, 2009 1:33 PM

Yes, the Ogden Streetcar was the brainchild of Congressman William Lipinski, whose father was a CSL motorman. Initially I was naturally dismissive, but came to think it might be worth further study. Ogden is a wide street with plenty of room for actual light rail, and is an important commercial corridor that needs attention and revival.

emathias Oct 20, 2009 2:54 PM

Anyone here know where I could find figures for the vertical clearances under the Loop "L" structure?

Mr Downtown Oct 20, 2009 5:05 PM

Chicago viaduct clearances


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