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Flyingwedge Jul 2, 2018 10:42 PM


Originally Posted by tovangar2 (Post 8239588)
Thank you FW for the wonderful post. Incredible that the complete volume of space that the old courthouse occupied is now within City Hall.

I did think though that Temple built the structure as a market (with an assembly room above), maybe based on Faneuil Hall back in his hometown, hence "Market Street", although I don't know if it ever got used for that (Faneuil Hall was, in turn, in imitation of market buildings in English country market towns). The original French doors, seen in the oldest photo, could have made the ground floor pretty much open air when the market was in operation.

Thanks t2, odinthor, and LAKK. Yes, I noticed the clock hands were missing. It would be interesting to know exactly
when they were removed.

Temple built the structure as a City Hall and Market House. "The Mayor and Common Council of the City of Los Angeles
do ordain as follows . . ."

June 23, 1860, Los Angeles Star @ USCDL

I agree there's similarity between Temple's building and Faneuil Hall. I also remember reading somewhere -- which may
have been incorrect -- that John Temple based his building on one somewhere in New York.

That's "1859 J. T." on the top of the drainpipe:

2003-0477 @ CA State Library

odinthor Jul 2, 2018 11:51 PM

My stray notes on the Temple Market House/Court House, should there be any facts of interest: "February-September 30, 1858, being built; March 12, 1859, published (Los Angeles Star): “Operations have been commenced on the lot where the city market house is to be built. The old houses and corrals having been removed, the excavation is now progressing. The contracts for the various portions of the work have been entered into”; July 30, 1859, published (Los Angeles Star): “This building is rapidly approaching completion, the workmen being now engaged on the cupola, which is to be built to the height of sixty-five feet above the roof, and furnished with a large clock, the bell of which will weigh seven hundred pounds. The first story of the building is for a market, and is divided off into stalls, the second story is for an assembly hall, with retiring rooms. The building occupies a square, with main entrances on Main and Spring streets, and side entrances on the lateral streets.—The structure has been built in the most substantial manner; the design and execution is by W. Dearien, who has done himself infinite credit by the manner in which he has performed the work.—The lot and building is the property of John Temple, Esq.; cost at least $40,000. It is to be leased by the city for a term of ten years”; September 24, 1859, published (Los Angeles Star): “On Monday last, fifty squares [of mastic roofing] were put on the Market House in a few hours”; October 1, 1859, published (Los Angeles Star): “Yesterday, a special meeting of the Common Council was held, when the contractor for the erection of the Market House delivered over the keys of the building to the city authorities, who formally received the same. The building is now the property of the city, and is highly creditable to the public spirit of Mr. Temple, as is the work to the builder, Mr. Dearien. Today, the stalls will be let by public auction”; December 29, 1859, sale by Mayor Marchesseault of the market stalls for three-month terms, only six remaining unsold, at length followed by charges of favoritism concerning the manner in which the market was conducted; October 8, 1859, published (Los Angeles Star): “The Market House was taken possession of on Monday last. The lessees immediately went to work to prepare the stalls for use. In most instances, two or more stalls have been taken by one person, thus securing large space for transacting business. There was considerable competition, and the stalls brought good rents, varying from $20 to $40 per month. We understand it is intended to open the market to the public to-night”; February 18, 1860, published (Los Angeles Star): “The large hall over the City Market, is being fitted up as a theatre. The stage is forty-five by twenty feet; with a private box on each side. The scenery is being painted by an artist brought from San Francisco for the purpose, under whom the decorations of the house are to be executed. The accommodations for the public are comfortable; the gallery consists of two tiers of raised benches; the parquetted to be furnished with arm chairs. From present appearances, it will be a very neat and commodious theatre, creditable to the enterprising proprietor, John Temple, Esq.”; November 28, 1863, published (Los Angeles Star): “We notice that the Cupola on the new Courthouse is receiving a coating of tin at the hands of Messrs. Hicks & Carson, preparatory to the approaching rainy season. When finished, it will be a decided improvement on the former covering”; May 21, 1864, published (Los Angeles Star): “The Market House which has already cost the City $5,000, still hangs like an incubus upon our hands, and during the past year has drawn $700 from the Cash Fund” [excerpt from the Mayor’s address]; 1866, lot and building sold by Temple’s executor Hinchman for $14,000 to J.S. Griffin and B.D. Wilson, who re-sold it in due course to the County; ca. 1870, Jewish services located here; later the site of the Bullard Block."

ethereal_reality Jul 3, 2018 2:38 AM

I can play this game too.


Does anyone remember seeing this fantastic & unique view from Fort Hill? (found it on ebay yesterday)
EBAY/gone already :(

I'm not familiar with this angle at all. IN which direction are we looking? [update: I just noticed it says SOUTH] also too: note the spelling 'Angelos'

If anyone has the time..would you most kindly name the buildings that I've numbered? (or at least try)

NICE, looks ancient: search purposes- E. & H.T. Anthony & Co., 591 Broadway opposite Metropolitan Hotel, New York

Oh, I almost are a couple little insignificant details that caught my eye.

The fence, just to the right of the outhouse, comes to a graceful point, quasi pyramid-like. [a flattened pyramid]
And the 'conical hive-shaped trellis-like thingy' [now that's a mouthful !] in the yard on the right. (could it be an AVIARY?)[/URL


OK, I'm almost done.

The complete panel with a closer look at the foreground [the DIRT].

Note the tracks of the wagon wheels!

I love history.

tovangar2 Jul 3, 2018 3:46 AM


Originally Posted by odinthor (Post 8239707)
... “This building is rapidly approaching completion, the workmen being now engaged on the cupola, which is to be built to the height of sixty-five feet above the roof, and furnished with a large clock, the bell of which will weigh seven hundred pounds..."

Dunno about that "sixty-five feet above the roof" business, but a 700 hundred pound bell seems possible. What ever happened to it?

"In 1859 [John Temple] built at a cost of forty thousand dollars and delivered to the city a market house surmounted by a town clock with a bell 'fine toned and sonorous'.
This was the court house of my childhood and its bell ordered our days"

-Adobe Days, S Bixby

And thank you for the reminder about the theater. I had forgotten that bit.

Flyingwedge Jul 3, 2018 3:56 AM


Originally Posted by ethereal_reality (Post 8239876)

Thanks for capturing that photo for us, e_r!

That photo looks like this one (c. 1875), which I think was taken a bit farther north on Fort Hill but also looks south:

Stereo-0094 @ CA State Library

This looks a little closer at a portion of the previous image. Below the magenta dot is the Backman House:

The Backman House was renamed the Grand Central Hotel:

January 12, 1876, Los Angeles Herald @ Library of Congress


Originally Posted by ethereal_reality (Post 8239876)

If anyone has the time..would you most kindly name the buildings that I've numbered? (or at least try)


I'm pretty sure of these:

1 Grand Central Hotel/Backman House
2 Farmers and Merchants Bank (I think the sign on the building says "Bank of Los Angeles")
3 St. Charles/Bella Union Hotel

odinthor Jul 3, 2018 4:13 AM


Originally Posted by ethereal_reality (Post 8239876)
[...] Oh, I almost are a couple little insignificant details that caught my eye.

The fence, just to the right of the outhouse, comes to a graceful point, quasi pyramid-like. [a flattened pyramid]
And the 'conical hive-shaped trellis-like thingy' [now that's a mouthful !] in the yard on the right. (could it be an AVIARY?)[/URL


OK, I'm almost done.

The complete panel with a closer look at the foreground [the DIRT].

Note the tracks of the wagon wheels!

I love history.

Hmmm, e_r. Wonderful pic! I'm looking (of course!) at the nicely landscaped garden with the conical hive-shaped trellis-like thingy. Isn't that perhaps the backyard of the Montgomery Saloon? Which was--was it not?--on the site of Eulogio de Celis' house, of which “The undersigned offers for sale the beautiful and commodious House he owns in this city, which is located in the best part of it, (Main Street) on a lot fifty yards on each side. There are seventeen rooms, six of which are from ten to twelve yards long by six or eight wide. A well of excellent water. An interior yard paved with bricks and large corral with a corridor. […] E. De Celis” (February 26, 1853, ad in the Los Angeles Star). The conical hive-shaped trellis-like thingy could be over the "well of excellent water." Or it could indeed be an aviary. Or maybe a decorative gazebo to ornament the saloon courtyard? Or something. :runaway:

ethereal_reality Jul 3, 2018 5:18 AM

Thanks for the information Flyingwedge and odinthor. I really appreciate it. -very interesting theory about the trellis odinthor. What grand details you provided!

re: mystery race track


Originally Posted by Lorendoc (Post 8239071)
For what it's worth, and assuredly it's not worth much, there was a Stoddard Fire Extinguisher Company (sign behind the two men in the white pants)
at 3908 E. Slauson in Maywood in the 50s-60s.

For what it's worth, and assuredly it's not worth much, 3908 E. Slauson is a small law firm today.



Originally Posted by GaylordWilshire
The Crescenta Valley Quarter Midget Association got approval for a track on Glendale city property at the western end of Colorado St and San Fernando Road in July 1956. I couldn't find it, but the building in the background might have been on San Fernando Rd--there are RR tracks and the river looking west from its intersection with Colorado Street, and there is a park just southeast of that junction today.

Some additional information. The 2nd paragraph mentions the track you spoke about GW.

"One unusual use of Crescenta Valley Park was proposed in 1958, just after the 'Hindenburg' portion of the park had been added to Crescenta Valley Regional Park. That portion to the west of Dunsmore Avenue had previously been a privately owned German-American cultural park. In the Aug. 3, 1958 issue of the Crescenta Valley Ledger, the Glendale Quarter Midget Association proposed building a car race track for kids on a section of the newly acquired Hindenberg side. (the track was laid out at the very bottom of the park, against the mountains and away from residences)

The Glendale Quarter Midget Association had actually started in the Crescenta Valley two years previously [1956], but had moved to Glendale when no appropriate track could be located in CV. The Glendale club had created a track at the far west end of Colorado Street on the L.A. border near San Fernando Road. Their organizations had become so popular in the two years since that they needed to restrict membership, and were regularly having more that 80 racers show up at their events held each weekend and two nights a week. The spokesman for the club said that the only other track available was in San Fernando, and the Glendale club didn’t like using that track as the San Fernando group went by “hot dog rules,” allowing souped-up engines and different types of fuels. If the new track could be built in Hindenburg, the Glendale group could split and form a new association here that would encompass the entire Foothill region from Sun Valley through La Cañada."

But the 'Hindenburg' site didn't pan out.

"It makes sense that the neighbors would oppose the idea as they had just seen the exit of the German-American League from Hindenburg Park. The park had seen thousands of visitors each weekend since the 1930s under the ownership of the German-American League, and the valley had vibrated to the sound of oom-pah bands at the weekly gatherings. The neighbors weren’t likely to be amenable to replacing that sound with the even louder sound of hundreds of un-muffled race cars." crescentvalleyweekly

As a reminder, here's one of those German-America League gatherings in La Crescenta's Hindenburg Park on April 24th, 1936.

later that same day.

:whatthefuck: wait a minute, I thought I was talking about Quarter Midget Car racing.


odinthor Jul 3, 2018 1:16 PM


Originally Posted by ethereal_reality (Post 8239876)
If anyone has the time..would you most kindly name the buildings that I've numbered? (or at least try)

I'm going at this piecemeal, e_r (sorry!) . . .

Isn't No. 5 Ducommun's store at the NE corner of Main and Commercial?

Here's an interesting paragraph about the area we're looking at (at least, in 1857). We're of course looking (mostly) at the backyards of the sites being mentioned:

From the November 14, 1857, Los Angeles Star: “The fine range of stores recently erected by J. Temple, Esq., on Main street, are now nearly completed, and command the admiration of all who visit them. Of ample dimensions, they are being fitted up in style of magnificence far surpassing anything of the kind in this section of the State. Our old friends, S. Prager and J. Morris, under the name and style of Prager & Morris, have taken possession of the store on the north side, for the purpose of conducting a general dry goods business. Their establishment will form one of the attractions of our city. No expense has been spared to render the most ample accommodation for their immense stock. […] Adjoining Messrs. Prager & Morris, the well known firm of Hellman Brothers, are in a few days to be established; where, in addition to their present business, as traders in books, stationery, musical instruments, fancy goods, &c., &c., they intend opening a magnificent stock of jewelry, watches, etc. Still farther along, comes the grocery and provision establishment of F. Rodriguez, who has recently removed from Commercial street. Next to him, and at the south end of the block, our old friend George F. Lamson is fitting up a splendid store, for the prosecution of a wholesale and retail grocery, provision and liquor trade. He will remove from his old stand in Nichols’ block to his new quarters in a few days. Adjoining Temple’s Block, on the north, we have the two new brick stores just finished by A. Dodson, Esq.—one of them already occupied by Mr. H. Read, the popular and obliging agent of Timms’ forwarding house. The other will be opened in a few days by Dr. Swim, for the sale of drugs and medicines. Opposite this is the property of C. Ducommun, Esq., which is also being much improved. His extensive store is filled with an endless variety of goods in the book, stationery, fancy goods, watch and jewelry line."

ethereal_reality Jul 3, 2018 1:37 PM

:odinthor: Again, such grand details. Thanks so much Brent.


Originally Posted by odinthor

I'm going at this piecemeal, e_r (sorry!) . . .

You're fine odinthor. It was alot to ask for.

ethereal_reality Jul 3, 2018 2:15 PM

I have somewhat of another 'mystery' folks. (surprise!)

I happened upon this postcard awhile back on ebay. [postmarked 1913]

A couple of things:

#1 "The Old Crucifix".
I thought for a cross to ba a crucifix it had to include the body of Christ nailed it.
I was raised a Methodist [agnostic now]. We didn't dwell on the crucifix as say, the Catholic Church.
[half my aunts and uncles..and cousins are Catholic]

I am unfamiliar with the crossed silver swords(?), or whatever they are, that are attached to the cross shown in the postcard.
Do they have something to due with the early Spanish/Mexican inhabitants of Southern California?

Does this crossed still exist? Is it somewhere on the grounds of the Plaza Church?
If not, has it been placed inside?

I tried to located the cross with the google-mobile. I checked every nook & cranny that's visible from the car.

If you like, you can check for yourself HERE

Have a great day!

odinthor Jul 3, 2018 5:38 PM

Jackson Graves, in his too-rarely cited Seventy Years in California, pp. 106-108, adds something to our knowledge of this stretch of Main (that in e_r's pic), as it was in 1875 (indeed, "June 6, 1875," quoth he): "From the Pico House, near the Plaza, on the east side of Main Street, to the St. Charles Hotel [alias the Bella Union], there was virtually no business building, except possibly a fruit stand and a barber shop. Where the Baker Block now stands was a magnificent old-time one-story dwelling-house, with court-yards and fountains, the former home of Don Abel Stearns, and then occupied by Col. R.S. Baker and wife. She was the widow of Don Abel Stearns. Adjoining the St. Charles on the north, the Grand Central Hotel was in course of construction. Between the St. Charles and the Ducommun Block (which is still standing), at the northeast corner of Main and Commercial Streets, were some old adobe buildings. On the west side of Main Street, in a three-story building (still standing, opposite the Pico House), on the ground floor thereof, was Chevallier's drug store, the most popular store of its kind in Los Angeles at that time. South of that building was Macy & Butler's livery stable, quite a pretentious affair, then more adobes, until the St. Elmo Hotel was reached. [...Then Graves talks about breweries for a paragraph, which I omit...] The retail merchandise business was in a few hands. Just south of the Farmer's & Merchants Bank building, in a one-story brick building, Eugene Meyer & Company conducted the City of Paris, the fashionable dry goods store of the city. Next to this store was the Billy Buffum's drinking saloon, then Theodore Wollweber's drug store. Then came the Downey Block, in the rear of which, just south of Wollweber, where the federal building now stands, was the Commercial Restaurant, with an entrance leading to Main Street. Next to it was a stationery store, shortly afterwards and for many years conducted by Mr. Phil Hirschfeld. Levy & Coblentz had a wholesale liquor store, next to the stationery store, with a side bar at which liquors were retailed. Jacoby Brothers came next with a clothing store, then there was a barber shop, then Nordlinger's jewelry store, then Charley Bush's, Lyon & Smith's carpet store, Charley Bean's real estate and insurance office, with Pete Thompson's, afterwards Pierson's, saloon, on the northeast corner of Temple and Main streets, completed the occupancy of the ground floor of the Downey Block. The upstairs housed physicians, lawyers and architects. South of Temple, on the west side of Spring Street . . . [etc., etc., etc.]."

Lorendoc Jul 4, 2018 2:26 AM


Originally Posted by ethereal_reality (Post 8240193)
I have somewhat of another 'mystery' folks. (surprise!)

The roof line is a pretty good match to this:

I have to go to Union Station tomorrow or Thursday, I'll take a look.

tovangar2 Jul 4, 2018 2:29 AM


Originally Posted by ethereal_reality (Post 8239876)

Some other shots of the block of N Main between Commercial and the Plaza:

First, I'd forgotten, or never knew before, that the Backman/Grand Central spent time as the St Charles /Bella Union Annex (source says this is ca 1880):
seaver center

Here, ca 1870, Ducommun's is still a single story and adobes, including El Palacio, stretch from the bank almost to Pico House:
seaver center

The Baker Block reset the scale for N Main:

In this one there's a view of that little building between the Ducommun Block and the Bella Union, but I cannot read the sign because of the tree (ca 1870s per source):
seaver center

One could check out the 1869 Rendall Panorama for clues to number 8. I can't quite figure it out.

sopas ej Jul 4, 2018 2:48 AM

Ramona Boulevard roadway, Boyle Heights, headed east from downtown Los Angeles, 1950.
Los Angeles Public Library

I'm into looking at old photos of LA Freeways again... I seem to go through cycles of various topics, of being into them and not being into them, LA Freeways included. I'm really into the older LA Freeways, specifically the Hollywood Fwy, Cahuenga Pass, and this section of what is now Interstate 10/the San Bernardino Freeway. I also live close to the Arroyo Seco Parkway, the West Coast's first, and I like that I can see "1940" debossed into the concrete of the Fair Oaks overpass over the 110. I know freeways are considered antiquated now, but they are such a part of the LA experience, whether you drive or not. LA's embrace of the automobile and the specific accommodation of them early on before other large cities is part of the city's and region's fabric.

Am I making sense? I've had my 3rd bottle of pear cider tonight. I feel it's usually not strong... :P Maybe because I've had little to eat for dinner?

HossC Jul 4, 2018 8:06 AM

It's the 4th of July once again, which means that here on NLA, it's time to wish a happy birthday to ethereal_reality.

Maybe you can wrestle some birthday cake away from Lena down at LA Zoo, e_r!

:happybirthday: :happybirthday: :happybirthday:

CityBoyDoug Jul 4, 2018 8:49 AM

Also to ER on his birthday.....

ethereal_reality Jul 4, 2018 10:15 AM

Thanks for the birthday wishes Hoss and CBD. :)


Originally Posted by Lorendoc (Post 8240879)

I have to go to Union Station tomorrow or Thursday, I'll take a look.

That would be great Lorendoc!

Another thing I find interesting about the cross is that, at one point in time, it was important enough to have postcards made of it
and now it appears to have dropped out of sight.

ethereal_reality Jul 4, 2018 11:05 AM

I found this 1967 snapshot in one of my older files yesterday. I could be wrong, but I don't believe I have posted it before

See the groovy blind in the window near the red vw on the right. I had a long sleeve stretchy shirt with that same pattern. I was 7 and looked fabulous. ;)

OK, I decided to also point out the rotating sign atop the California Federal Bldg. (no doubt showing the time) ..and perhaps the temperature.

Here's a more manageable size. (the one above is actually two halves spliced together)


ethereal_reality Jul 4, 2018 11:22 AM

Giphy / And no, that isn't me dressed like CAPTAIN AMERICAN.

Although it could have been....I've been known to act a fool in my younger days.

ethereal_reality Jul 4, 2018 11:32 AM

Jackson Graves' diary is invaluable odinthor. Thanks so much.

And thanks to tovangar2 for the fantastic images of the block of N Main between Commercial and the Plaza.

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