What does the fact you were responding to me mean? I have teen nephews. I speak the lingo.

Actually, the stats I post may be an undercount. I, for example, got my shots in Arizona and am probably counted as a resident but not as someone who's vaccinated.

I meant no offense to you. I learn more from my elders than I do from people younger than myself.

:cheers:

Are you as disappointed as I am in the vaccination rates in AZ? They started off like gangbusters--way ahead of CA. But have stalled. Way more "hesitancy" than I'd hoped and it's a little surprising since even conservatives should recognize that the vaccines are actually a Trumpian triumph.

The good news for me is that my zip code is among the most vaxxed in the state, mainly because most of the residents are Midwestern transplants and many are seniors.

So the US currently has twice the daily new covid cases per capita to Canada and 30x that of Australia

https://i.postimg.cc/JzkPPSFg/corona...xplorer-17.png

Deaths per capita is also 2x for the US over Canada
https://i.postimg.cc/ZqmFjnpB/corona...xplorer-18.png

Some countries are not willing to let a their fellow citizens die when it can easily be prevented
Americans don't really care how many fellow Americans have to die as long as they don't have to wear a mask.

Anyways I am curious how the US will handle the delta variant as that is the main reason why Canada is being conservative about loosening restrictions.
Unlike Canada and the UK, the US has not really had to deal with the Delta Variant, but it will soon be the most dominant variant in the US as well.
I assume that's why US cases have stopped decreasing and have started to rise again.

AZ is younger than CA, so I'm not too disappointed that young people refuse the vaccine over older people. I am 100000% in agreement that older people should get the jab, however I understand why young people and the military refuse the jab until it's FDA approved. Good on them, because the virus doesn't kill them or have much effect on them.

Two weeks after California "opened up"...


From KTLA5:

L.A. County urges everyone to wear masks in public indoor places as delta variant spreads

by: Associated Press, Kareen Wynter, Jennifer Gould
Posted: Jun 28, 2021 / 06:42 PM PDT / Updated: Jun 29, 2021 / 11:27 AM PDT

Health officials in Los Angeles County now strongly recommend that people wear masks indoors in public places — regardless of their vaccination status — to prevent the spread of the highly transmissible delta variant of the coronavirus.

The move comes two weeks after Gov. Gavin Newsom reopened California and lifted the statewide mask mandate.

The L.A. County recommendation — which is not a mandate — in the nation’s most populous county does not match what the state government and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention say, which is that vaccinated people in certain public indoor settings do not need to be masked. Unvaccinated people are supposed to wear masks in public.

The World Health Organization, however, is urging vaccinated people to wear masks as cases of the delta variant spike worldwide, which was first identified in India. Hong Kong says it will ban all passenger flights from the U.K. starting Thursday. More than 95% of COVID-19 cases in the U.K. are of the delta variant.

The L.A. County public health department suggested that people wear masks when inside grocery or retail stores, as well as theaters and family entertainment centers and workplaces when people’s vaccination statuses are not known.

“Until we better understand how and to who the Delta variant is spreading, everyone should focus on maximum protection with minimum interruption to routine as all businesses operate without other restrictions, like physical distancing and capacity limits,” the department said in a news release.

The county experienced a massive surge in cases and deaths over the winter. To date, the county has recorded a total of 1.2 million cases and more than 24,000 deaths.

Link: https://ktla.com/news/local-news/l-a...riant-spreads/


Keep in mind it's not mandatory, it's just recommended.

^ And it’s moronic

You guys do realize that there, literally, is no logical end to this situation, right?

Even if everybody is vaccinated, there is already a new variant to monitor, and after that another one and then another one.

Meanwhile vaccinated people are, ya know, continuing to obsess over something that’s no more deadly to them than viruses that they’ve been living with already for years or decades.

Some of you are being sold fear, and just eating it up.

That's one loaded way to put it. You can also put it this way: some countries think that Covid-19 is the only thing that matters. The US thinks that there is more to be concerned about than just Covid-19, like people's jobs, people's businesses, giving children a proper education, and so on.

^ Just be glad you live here.

Those goofball places literally are STILL locking down, nearly 1 and 1/2 years into this thing! Pure misery. What a way to live…

Is what's happening in Israel a portent of things to come?

https://www.clickondetroit.com/healt...variant-cases/

That article is pure fear porn, and the last sentence says it all. Nearly all cases were mild or asymptomatic.

Also, a quick Google search shows that the rise in cases in Israel is barely a blip. The 7 day average is Israel is currently 201 cases/day. That compares to the 8,395 cases/day during the peak of the pandemic when no one was vaccinated.

As others have said, if you're vaccinated, you really shouldn't worry about this and get on with living.

^ Exactly

These scenes after England's victory over Germany in the European soccer matches doesn't look like lockdown or distancing to me:

• Video Link

Well that's is because the US doesn't have a first world safety net that people have to worry about those things.
Covid restrictions just illustrates why having a public safety net is very important. On average Canadian have become even wealthier over the the last 1.5 years of covid do to government spending. Last i heard, average Canadian were seating on an extra $5,000 in disposables income due to government spending compared to before covid.

Here is the article:

After a year of pandemic prudence, Canadians likely eager to spend the billions saved
Average Canadian saved more than $5,000 in the pandemic. But what will they do with that cash?

"Canadians have saved a record amount of money during the pandemic, resulting from the combined impact of reduced spending and collecting more money from government support programs."

All the billions in saving is starting to be spent now in Canada that inflation is becoming a concern.
So unlike the US, covid has been a financial windfall for most Canadians.


When I do the covid calculus between the US and Canada this is what I get:

Canadians suffered 1/3 the deaths per capita and individuals have gain billions in wealth due to government spending.
Americans on the other hand, without the same safety net, have have to spend billions more on healthcare due to covid, have to worry about money because of lack of government support. have had to rushed back to work in some cases causing more outbreaks and have had one the world highest death rates. But get to open up 3 months earlier than Canadians for their troubles, but with still 2x more covid cases and death per capita.

So which of the two countries actually care about the welfare of their citizens?

P.S. here is yesterdays new covid cases between both countries
Keep in mind the US only has a population 9x larger
https://i.postimg.cc/BtWj9Z3d/corona...xplorer-19.png

^^Your calculations are utter nonsense. Throughout the covid situation Americans on average have been paying down debt and spending heavily on goods because they couldn’t spend on things like travel. Even those out of work are doing reasonably well with multiple special benefit checks of thousands of dollars and extended unemployment benefits augmented by $1200 per month of extra unemployment. It’s controversial but there is some evidence the benefits the unemployed are getting are sufficiently generous as to inhibit an aggressive search for work during this reopening period—more people do seem to be returning to the workforce in states that have ended the supplementary unemployment benefits early.

As for the number of covid deaths, let’s face it: Canada is the Australia of the north, something of a small isolated backwater in the scheme of international movement which protected it.

There seems to be an exemption from the rules that applies to football fans only. Trust me it has not gone unnoticed by people in the performing arts or music industries.

Too bad those 600,000 dead Americans couldn't per take in all the fun now. 400,000 of which would have been alive now if the US matched Canada covid response btw.
I guess places like Wyoming, Arkansas and Missouri are in the forefront of international movement since they have much more daily covid cases and death right now than Canada.

^ Most Americans would rather have their liberties than almost anything else

You fail to understand this as a Canadian. That’s why Canada is our little stepchild

We’d rather innovate our way out of a situation than stifle people and their commerce, which is why we developed vaccines that are amazingly effective (even against the variants, which are basically a non-issue for the vaccinated) even while Canadians are huddling in their basements hoping to get rescued.

So why are daily covid cases and deaths twice the number per capita in the US compared to Canada?
You would think it would be the opposite to such and advance a powerful innovative nation.
Even our fellow backwater, Australia, is doing even better than the innovative and advance US.

What is the logic of banning fully vaccinated Americans from entering Canada, though?

Obviously Canada has the authority to set its rules as it sees fit, but I'm not getting the public health angle. It's weird that I could summer in France, but I can't enter Ontario.

^ Because of people like Nite, where the only metric in life that matters is Covid cases, and nothing else warrants consideration :haha:

Anyhow, would you even want to go to Canada now? It’s boring enough without a pandemic, now imagine going there with all of their perpetual lockdown insanity.

Banff is pretty nice though. BC too when its not 120F. Amazing scenery.

I dont know what I would do in my boring backwater of a city if lockdown ended. I should probably just move to free and innovative Alabama.

Arguing about what some universal best approach to Covid is has always been pointless given the cultural differences between all the countries/states/cities we live in. If you want to eradicate the disease in the quickest and most ruthless manner possible, and you have the political authority to do so, it's hard to argue with China's approach. If you're in a country like the U.S. where personal liberties have always been at the forefront of the discussion, the best bet was probably to mitigate damage while rushing a vaccine.

As much as we like to bicker about our "longest lockdown in the world" status in Canada, I question whether people truly would've been able to stomach the type of numbers we saw in more laissez-faire jurisdictions. I think the Ontario government would have been equally crucified if we had gotten to the point of people dying in the hallways of overflowing hospitals, which his where we were inevitably headed given limited ICU capacity.

Correct, no government in Canada, Federal, Provincial or Territorial would be tolerated if it didn't do all that it could to stop the health system from collapsing under the weight or a huge covid outbreak regardless of which political party they belong to. The premier of Ontario came the closest but even he could not withstand the public pressure to drop the hammer down.

Canadian will not tolerate the disregarding of human lives, the economy will always come back anyway unlike a human life.

Right, but again, if Canadian border restrictions are based on public health, and if there's a consensus that fully vaccinated foreigners are no threat to public health, why the restriction? What's the underlying reasoning?

Canada obviously has the right to maintain border restrictions indefinitely; I just don't understand the current thinking.

Yes but how does that justify what Canada/ Ontario are still doing at this point? New cases and fatalities have fallen considerably and Canada is on track to outpace the US in vaccinations.

At this point know one really knows what the threshold is for opening the border. Public health officials are really dying on the hill of fully vaccinated vs. partially vaccinated, and Canada has obviously been lagging on the fully vaccinated front even as first doses hit record numbers. I think it's a convenient line in the sand for them to draw since it buys them an extra month or two to let case numbers and hospitalizations dwindle down. Opening the border, even to fully vaccinated travelers, while overall case and ICU numbers were at record highs would've probably garnered some negative attention.

The reality is the border closure is more inconvenient than anything. I just had a friend come back from Miami after living there fully vaccinated for two months. He took an Uber from Buffalo airport to the Peace Bridge (or maybe Rainbow Bridge in Niagara?), walked across the border with his luggage, and got another Uber to Toronto.

Hospitalizations and ICU numbers have been very high in Ontario until very recently (like 2-3 weeks), because even as we're quickly approaching most vaccinated country in the world status (with Pfizer/Moderna I should specify), we were a solid 2-3 months behind the US and UK.

Ontario hit its peak Covid numbers around April 18, as you guys were probably already close to 50% fully vaccinated.

The US is still not at 50% fully vaccinated, much less in April

Another big tech company walking back forcing people back into the office....

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/29/tech/...nge/index.html

The tug of war continues!

And Canada has many more than Australia, another little global backwater.

The vaccine right now is available to every American who wants it. That's what matters and I'm not at all sure it's true in Canada. Those who don't want it can go without and take their chances. It's the spirit of a country that won its freedom and conquered a frontier on its own.

By the way, when are you guys going to let my Canadian neighbors loose to come back to their homes in Arizona and enjoy real freedom?

First dose vaccine rates are almost 70% of the total population, higher than that for the eligible 12+ population. If you haven't gotten a second dose yet it's because it hasn't been long enough since your first shot. The vast majority of those first doses were jabbed in May.

Canadians who aren't traveling to the U.S. are probably more concerned about being the subject of their neighbours gossip than they are about the efficacy of any travel restrictions. Coincidentally, one of the only 2 people I personally know who died of Covid was a guy near my parents cottage who refused to give up his annual winter trip to Florida. His wife said he was reasonably cautious for the first two months, but eventually gave in and went into the clubhouse for a drink with his golf buddies after a round. They all caught Covid, and the two oldest sadly passed away. Knowing the guy though, I think he still would've preferred not having anyone tell him what to do even if he knew what was coming.

Why has this thread gotten so nasty between the Canadians and Americans? I think Canada, and certainly Australia, are being quite ridiculous in their approach to the virus at this point. We have a vaccine now-- get the most vulnerable people vaccinated and the death rate of COVID plunges. With the vaccine available to basically anyone who wants it, it's absurd to continue lockdowns and severe restrictions. I don't really understand the tolerance Canadians have shown toward these draconian measures. But I don't think calling them a global backwater is at all acceptable. I also don't have much tolerance for the smug 'Canadians prospered while Americans became broke and died' take. Both are gross oversimplifications intended to hurt the other. Grow up.

in my city we dont have to wear masks anymore. but is so hot right now you would probably die if you had on one, so its def a good thing.

Not to mention Canada has now exceeded the US in vaccination rates, which has hit a wall, despite the US being the main researcher, developer, manufacturer, and distributor of the vaccines, and thus having a massive head start in vaccination efforts. Coupled with Canada having a third of the death rate of the US, I'm not sure there's really that much for the US boosters to be so smug about.

It's been brewing....

https://i.imgur.com/ig7dqNZ.gif

Does Canada have much of large anti-vax community as well? One of our mass vax sites, Dodger Stadium had to shut down one day because a horde of anti-vaxxers blocked the entrance. Yay! Real freedom!

What matters as far as governmental competence is whether there is any bar to anyone who wants a vaccine getting it. In the US there isn't.

Actually, places like the Bay Area (and Northeast) where political and educational attitudes are less of a bar to getting the vaccine, current rates of coverage exceed Canada's (in terms both of one dose and being fully vaccinated). It's quite clear the ignorance and politics in the south and parts of the mountain west are pulling down the national numbers.

But if those people don't want the vaccine, freedom means they shouldn't get it. And if they get covid, they have no one to blame but themselves.

I'm disappointed in my fellow citizens for their attitude about this but not in my government under either administration. The national and state governments have made it possible for anyone to get a vaccine (and they did that when Canada was still struggling to get any vaccine). That's all they can or should do.

People have been locked away, subjected to non-stop media coverage, lost employment or potentially even family members over the last year. It's human nature to try and justify that kind of sacrifice. If you're one of the people who's been subject to record lockdowns, it's a tough pill to swallow that your months of quarantining in an apartment wasn't the right approach or was never worth it. If you lean towards the "Covid isn't a big deal" side than you need to validate higher death rates with increased freedoms and economic prosperity.

From the article it doesn't sound like a concern for those that are vaccinated.

Well it does seem awfully one-sided with the Canadians telling Americans how to run their country and constantly pointing to what they think are its faults (many of which Americans don't consider faults at all). On the other hand, it's hard to find a thread or even a post in which Americans instruct Canadians on improvements they need too make (and no, it's not because Canada is already perfect).

I've recently run across a number of issues I thought about posting from the "First Nations" bodies found all over Canada now to the recent proposal to criminalize "hate speech" on the internet, but I figured, "Why bother--I don't really care what they do up there."

The big question is why Canadians are so obsessed with how Americans live and govern themselves. Does it really matter to them? Some kind of national Napoleon complex?

Probably because they are absolutely bombarded with American current events whereas most Americans couldn't tell you who the Prime Minister is or anything about it besides hockey, Rush and Mounties. I mean I grew up a couple of hours from there and I knew little about it even though we drank Molsons and religiously watched Hockey Night in Canada.

In Canada, by and large, the public health measures are implemented at the provincial level. Almost all of our restrictions are gone here (BC). Some other provinces achieved near 0 covid and so were back to normal for much of the pre-vaccine era of the pandemic but had travel restrictions. Ontario seems to have had the worst of both worlds with long-lasting restrictions of sometimes dubious value and mediocre outcomes. It seems like part of what happened is officials there simply did a poor job for whatever reasons and now the premier is deferring to risk-averse health authorities so that he doesn't get blamed if things go off the rails again.

Sometimes Ontario is presented as "Canada" (due to a mix of lazy foreign media only visiting Toronto, Ontarians assuming that whatever is normal there is normal all around the country, or Ontarians assuming that all other parts of Canada are insignificant) but it has just under 40% of the Canadian population. Ontario and the West are also more US-aligned and plugged into US culture than Quebec or Atlantic Canada.

Australia's issue is complacency - apart from Melbourne last winter we have had essentially no Covid in the country for over a year. This was achieved by slamming the borders shut and forcing every incoming traveller to quarantine in a hotel at their own expense for two weeks.

So we lived pretty normally in Sydney - no masks, no real restrictions, bars, restaurants all open.

So the federal government was very laggard in acquiring supplies of the vaccine: people now can't get vaccinated if they want to.

Now due to this weird risk calculus, they're locking us down over a dozen cases a day in Sydney, the interstate borders are closed, there's no pathway out because there's no vaccine available, and each of the state premiers and federal government spend all day arguing about whose fault it is in duelling press conferences.

Schmozzle.

We weren't envious of America last year with all the deaths and restrictions, but genuinely glad to see all of you opening up again - I hope y'all have a great summer

We're knee deep in a bitter winter of nonsense here - i'm not even allowed to leave the Sydney metro area and i'm meant to be going skiing downstate in two weeks .

^ I guess the whole problem with Australia’s approach is, how did they not anticipate that this was going to happen?

I mean, they couldn’t quarantine from the world forever. They should’ve tried hard and early to procure vaccine for their citizens.

I have been wondering for a while if (some) Australians were thinking the were somehow biologically different from the rest of humanity.

Yeah, until you're actually there to witness it (and that's if you're an observant person) it's really hard to grasp how deep the media bombardment and the resulting effect of making American domestic issues become Canadian domestic issues - often regardless of relevance here - in most of Canada.

Haha maybe some - but we ARE geographically different.

Far-sightedness is not a common quality of Australian politics.