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rick m Oct 9, 2011 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 5438758)
Beer and Ritz Crackers, an interesting combination.




I actually looked through this book some weeks ago while I was at Vroman's in Pasadena. It's a fascinating book. I don't recall it mentioning this, though:
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/2640/p1090163y.jpg
Photo by me

This supposedly is the oldest bathhouse in Los Angeles, established in 1905, corner of 4th and Los Angeles Streets. As far as I know, it's still in business (I've never been to it myself) and is now called the KLYT bathhouse. But it used to known as the Palace Turkish Baths. This is from a 1967 LA phone book:
http://www.gaytubs.com/images/palace.jpg
gaytubs.com

Here it is in the context of the surrounding blocks. I took these photos on 12/31/09. The building under construction on the right is now complete (it's a mixed-use commercial/residential building).
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1153/p1090164fm.jpg
Photo by me

And for historic context, that mixed-use building pales greatly in comparison to what used to be there--- the Westminster Hotel:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1...nsterhotel.jpg
USC Archive

The photo dates to before the opening of the bathhouse--circa 1900, the USC Archive says. So none of those gentlemen in the picture were on their way there.

I believe there were a number of bathhouses operating in downtown Los Angeles in the early part of the 20th Century. Of course there were many vice busts that would occur.

This is from an 1895 Los Angeles directory:
http://www.gaytubs.com/images/la-baths.jpg
gaytubs.com

The bathhouses were not squeezed into the Arcadia book- Recently I cracked the mystery of the Pershing Sq. bath raid- Oops-my battery needs reloading-Later !

ethereal_reality Oct 10, 2011 1:25 AM

I guess I'm still ruminating about Jim Jeffries' alpha-male Gentleman's Club morphing into a gay bar.



Pictured below is a gambling joint during a raid at 1725 West Florence in January 1955.
The only crime I see here is the plaid wallpaper. ;)


http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6...arat1725wf.jpg
usc digital archive




Below: Here is a current photo of 1725 W. Florence Ave. The gambling den has been resurrected as a 'church'.


http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/235...dbldgtoday.jpg
google street views



http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/1...ldgnoirmar.jpg
Marc Evans

http://www.flickr.com/photos/clearlight/4864831279/


I'd take the gamblers any day.


___________

rick m Oct 10, 2011 2:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick m (Post 5439050)
The bathhouses were not squeezed into the Arcadia book- Recently I cracked the mystery of the Pershing Sq. bath raid- Oops-my battery needs reloading-Later !

Umm - SOPAS! Westminster was fronting along Main St.- that shown corner would be n/e corner at 4th- likely loads of its occupants were struggling single men--About finally locating where the bath adjacent to Pershing Sq. was located- I found the name The Sultan in the entry for Los Angeles in Dwyer's Gay Encyclopedia-overlloked in our raiding all else @ One during our researching frenzy.The in the main archives index we got directed to the "bathhouse" folder-Voila! A ten page extract frm LAPD Commission hearing circa 1959 detailed it in all its chicanery (for the LAPD).. A '56 city street directory held the name:Sultan Downtown Health Center(!) @ 607 S.Hill St.- In the basement of the changing-hands Consolidated Bldng was essentially 4 dozen plywood minisuites complete with gloryholes all round an cots-(a restroom or showers or gym equipment NOT mentioned by the 2 vice officers )This pair were sent to surveil the place after straight customers compliants re sleepness nights in what supposedly was a $2 per nite flophouse. 2 yrs of nitely observing n notetaking frm their own rented cubicle sent 18 to jail in '57 and 59 more in '58 -til finally the owner and his mother were pressured to close.So this was just 40' south of that eastern corner of Pershing Sq. Almost cattycorner up in the ginormous balcony of the by now B-movie Paramount Theater many men found their scene--which also was so close to the Metro downstairs bar reached by steps a few feet from the theater's sidewalk boxoffice- Now departed friends told of remarkably congested grope partying taking place in a very dark bar..Another hustler bar - notorious countrywide was the Circle @324 W.5th nestled in rear of Dunn's Coffee Shop doors away frm the Donut Chalet-- Pershing Sq. WAS really like Disneyland --

sopas ej Oct 10, 2011 3:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick m (Post 5439162)
Umm - SOPAS! Westminster was fronting along Main St.- that shown corner would be n/e corner at 4th-

I am totally aware of that, yes! I was just saying that the new development is now on the site of the old Westminster; the new development actually takes up the whole north side of 4th street between Main and Los Angeles streets; there is open space in the center (it's actually a 2-building development).

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick m (Post 5439162)
About finally locating where the bath adjacent to Pershing Sq. was located- I found the name The Sultan in the entry for Los Angeles in Dwyer's Gay Encyclopedia-overlloked in our raiding all else @ One during our researching frenzy.The in the main archives index we got directed to the "bathhouse" folder-Voila! A ten page extract frm LAPD Commission hearing circa 1959 detailed it in all its chicanery (for the LAPD).. A '56 city street directory held the name:Sultan Downtown Health Center(!) @ 607 S.Hill St.- In the basement of the changing-hands Consolidated Bldng was essentially 4 dozen plywood minisuites complete with gloryholes all round an cots-(a restroom or showers or gym equipment NOT mentioned by the 2 vice officers )This pair were sent to surveil the place after straight customers compliants re sleepness nights in what supposedly was a $2 per nite flophouse. 2 yrs of nitely observing n notetaking frm their own rented cubicle sent 18 to jail in '57 and 59 more in '58 -til finally the owner and his mother were pressured to close.So this was just 40' south of that eastern corner of Pershing Sq. Almost cattycorner up in the ginormous balcony of the by now B-movie Paramount Theater many men found their scene--which also was so close to the Metro downstairs bar reached by steps a few feet from the theater's sidewalk boxoffice- Now departed friends told of remarkably congested grope partying taking place in a very dark bar..Another hustler bar - notorious countrywide was the Circle @324 W.5th nestled in rear of Dunn's Coffee Shop doors away frm the Donut Chalet-- Pershing Sq. WAS really like Disneyland --

Very interesting tidbits. I know that Pershing Square was a big cruising area a long time ago.

rick m Oct 10, 2011 4:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 5439203)
I am totally aware of that, yes! I was just saying that the new development is now on the site of the old Westminster; the new development actually takes up the whole north side of 4th street between Main and Los Angeles streets; there is open space in the center (it's actually a 2-building development).



Very interesting tidbits. I know that Pershing Square was a big cruising area a long time ago.

More on Roman Palace Baths- As related by late Jim Kepner n Donna Smith when interviewed sometime in the 70s about early L.A. gay/lesbian tales of yore-- And also found in 4 articles in 1921 (?) LA Times--ex mayor Harper's now cute and flaming 20 yr old son and his posse overheard by undercover vice cop iside the baths planning their seduction party/orgy at his home on S.Figueroa (?) .This stud officer gets invited to join the fun - so headqrtrs dispatches he and a partner who climb thru open downstairs window and hide neath the master bed to take copious notes whilst a raid squad waits out around the corner until they hear a signal to bust up the event. The lads were attired in elaborate drag and fellating a gaggle of sailors they'd met. Raid ensues and the exmayor and wife arrive home frm their journey to have momma faint deadaway at sight of sonnyboy in cuffs and high drag (her own finery?) After several court appearances the sailors were acquited and all other charges eventually got dropped into dustbin of history. Femme extraordinaire Empress Josephine rented the baths out for monthly fetes for the city's gay royalty with hired musicians and grand pianos -Josephine later set up in deluxe cottage near Jonathan Club by one of its leaders who had a thing for her -- Rock Hudson said seen to be a habituee on the same premises in the '50s... Whew again in the name of LGBT History Month !

ethereal_reality Oct 11, 2011 12:58 AM

Here is an interesting photo of a boarded up court-yard apartment complex in the shadow of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power Building. I believe the location is somewhere on Freemont Street near Temple.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/3...taptsonfre.jpg
los angeles public library

http://www.lapl.org/


So would this court-yard complex be situated just below Circle Court in the photo below? If I only had a super-duper magnifying glass. :)


http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9...indistance.jpg
usc digital archive

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/search...ller/index.htm

ethereal_reality Oct 11, 2011 1:47 AM

Here is an expansive photo of the Hall of Justice that I don't remember seeing before.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5879/amazingn.jpg
usc digital archive


Here's my question:
Was this stretch of residential buildings located on Hill Street, Olive Street or the much much shorter Stockton Street?
(Stockton Street is visible on an old 1945 street map of L.A. that I purchased recently on ebay)

_____

GaylordWilshire Oct 11, 2011 1:50 AM

e_r: Looks to me like the court you mentioned below was probably entered from Fremont where it angled north of Diamond Street between First and Temple--

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-l...s436/wandp.jpgLos Angeles Mapped

ethereal_reality Oct 11, 2011 1:58 AM

Wow GaylordWilshire thanks for pinpointing that for me.

I added another question in post #4937....did you see it?

rick m Oct 11, 2011 2:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ethereal_reality (Post 5440090)
Here is an expansive photo of the Hall of Justice that I don't remember seeing before.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5879/amazingn.jpg
los angeles public library

Here's my question:
Was this stretch of residential buildings located on Hill Street, Olive Street or the much much shorter Stockton Street?
(Stockton Street is visible on an old 1945 street map of L.A. that I purchased recently on ebay)

These apts were on the 300 block of North Hill St --- USC should have that correct info added by now.

ethereal_reality Oct 11, 2011 2:58 AM

Thanks rick_m. I wasn't sure of the location.

rick m Oct 11, 2011 3:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick m (Post 5440153)
These apts were on the 300 block of North Hill St --- USC should have that correct info added by now.

Hmmm- should've rechecked USC record first - Yuri's had that correction for months - so I just gave him a nudge on that street i.d. - This image only turned up early in 2011 --

GaylordWilshire Oct 11, 2011 3:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ethereal_reality (Post 5440090)
Here's my question:
Was this stretch of residential buildings located on Hill Street, Olive Street or the much much shorter Stockton Street?
(Stockton Street is visible on an old 1945 street map of L.A. that I purchased recently on ebay)

I see stubby Stockton on the same map that the image below came from--there is another stub street just west of it the name of which I can't make out-- but I can't tell where these houses were.

Per a prior discussion, I did come across the Swastika Apartments in this neighborhood--at 827 Boston St. (The address still turns up an apartment bldg --but something much newer called the Orsini.)

Ed: Looks like rick m has got it pinned down. Excellent.

GaylordWilshire Oct 11, 2011 10:33 AM

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-C...2520AM.bmp.jpgLAPL

gsjansen Oct 11, 2011 2:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick m (Post 5440153)
These apts were on the 300 block of North Hill St --- USC should have that correct info added by now.

interesting that this particular photograph's location come's up.

back in may, i had received a flickermail asking the same question.

Dear gsjansen,

It's rather a very interesting collection of the LA's historic photographs you have! I really enjoyed it. The USC Digital Library has thousands of published images related to the LA's history, and some of them is exact match to yours. Which is, I assume, quite inevitable in the age of the Internet :)

BTW, I wonder how did you get the location info for this image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/33455118@N08/5643203995/ ? We have the same photograph in our collection but no geo-related data is available.

Many thanks in advance,

Yuri Shcherbina
Metadata Manager
USC Digital Library


I had responded,

thank you for your kind message on the images i have posted on my flickr photostream.

yes quite a few of the photographs are from the USC Digital Archive.

i began posting images to my flickr account so that friends of mine could see in images the amazing change and growth that los angeles has experienced in a very short period of time.

I always try to verify locations and dates of photographs that i upload by means of comparing maps, other photographs, and news articles.

the photo that you asked about, i was able to date due to the level of construction completed on city hall. i was able to locate the image as being on hill street, north of temple mainly because of the los angeles city garage that is visible at the lower far right hand side of the image.

here is a link to a 1940 image from the los angeles public library photographic collection showing the intersection of hill and temple where the garage is very visible

http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics37/00068219.jpg

i hope that answers your question properly.


i'm assuming it is the same Yuri you make reference to in your next post.

ethereal_reality Oct 11, 2011 7:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaylordWilshire (Post 5440184)
I see stubby Stockton on the same map that the image below came from--there is another stub street just west of it the name of which I can't make out-

Hi GW:
That other stubby street was called Pavilion Place.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6236/bofamap1945.jpg
from my 1945 map

-ER

ethereal_reality Oct 11, 2011 11:55 PM

A spectacular looking motor court.....Firenze Gardens at 5218-5230 Sunset Boulevard, circa 1922.


http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/1...gardens521.jpg
los angeles public library

http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics14/00026792.jpg

gsjansen Oct 12, 2011 2:20 AM

:previous:

firenze gardens today......................................

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6047/...5156a7a3_b.jpg
Source: Googlemaps

ethereal_reality Oct 12, 2011 2:51 AM

aaargh! So upsetting. :(

rick m Oct 12, 2011 3:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsjansen (Post 5440493)
interesting that this particular photograph's location come's up.

back in may, i had received a flickermail asking the same question.

Dear gsjansen,

It's rather a very interesting collection of the LA's historic photographs you have! I really enjoyed it. The USC Digital Library has thousands of published images related to the LA's history, and some of them is exact match to yours. Which is, I assume, quite inevitable in the age of the Internet :)

BTW, I wonder how did you get the location info for this image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/33455118@N08/5643203995/ ? We have the same photograph in our collection but no geo-related data is available.

Many thanks in advance,

Yuri Shcherbina
Metadata Manager
USC Digital Library


I had responded,

thank you for your kind message on the images i have posted on my flickr photostream.

yes quite a few of the photographs are from the USC Digital Archive.

i began posting images to my flickr account so that friends of mine could see in images the amazing change and growth that los angeles has experienced in a very short period of time.

I always try to verify locations and dates of photographs that i upload by means of comparing maps, other photographs, and news articles.

the photo that you asked about, i was able to date due to the level of construction completed on city hall. i was able to locate the image as being on hill street, north of temple mainly because of the los angeles city garage that is visible at the lower far right hand side of the image.

here is a link to a 1940 image from the los angeles public library photographic collection showing the intersection of hill and temple where the garage is very visible

http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics37/00068219.jpg

i hope that answers your question properly.


i'm assuming it is the same Yuri you make reference to in your next post.

Yep - Same Yuri - Dace handed me over to him almost 2 yrs ago - He says they are putting many corrections into a catalog to apply once a lengthy retooling finalizes -- I've worked with them on at least 30 of these fixes- And going back 6 or 7 years with LAPL and UCLA collections maybe 70 or 80 more ... Gotta provide backup to make the case each time ! Always something ------ Sometimes going thru your FLICKR posts , I'd see one that'd recently been taken care of by meself --


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