Chicago's Orange Line was only built two decades ago, unless you mean Chicago's "L" in general.

orange is modern. i refer to the 100-plus yrs. old iron elevated/wood platform structures which require constant maintenance. i don't feel those antiquated sections work well in the context of a modern transit system. heck, the ravenswood was just refurbished but it still runs slow as a snail. to me, that's a waste of resources. (i am not a regular commuter on this line, so someone who actually commutes would be better qualified to really assess.)

the downtown el is a nice symbol, and makes a great tourist attraction, however in modern terms, its very inefficient.

but hell, you're asking someone who adores the expressway median transit flyers which most on this board hate.

The steel structures are not something we'd build today - the noise they create would immediately fail the EIS. The closest you can get is what they did on the rebuilt Pink Line... steel beams on concrete columns with shock absorbers at each joint. CTA cheaped out on that project, but they did it right on the Orange Line/Red Line where they fly over Chinatown... gravel ballast to absorb the rumbling and parapet walls to block the screeching. There's just a faint rumble when the train goes by.

http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gall...00/cta2063.jpg
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Buffalo's Metro Rail has some underground stations as well.

There are at least two elevated stations in Minneapolis, both the Franklin Avenue and Lake Street stations are directly above the streets in question. I am pretty sure the new Target Field station is also elevated but I haven't checked it out in person yet.

Here's a cool graphic of Dallas' Cityplace Station, which sits 100 feet below Central Expressway...

http://jlsmith.net/Portfolio/cityplace.jpg
http://jlsmith.net

I see Portland's has already been mentioned, but it tops the list for deepest subway station in North America at 260 feet below the surface. ;)

Well, you illustrate one of the challenges the CTA experiences is that people *think* they understand what the CTA does/has done but people *don't* understand what it is the CTA has done.

That's in reference to the Brown Line - the CTA has NOT refurbished the Brown Line tracks - some really basic track work to keep it running, but the big money project you're referring to was only a rebuilding and extension of the stations and platforms so that they could accommodate longer trains (8-car trains instead of 6-car trains). That work did not include any serious work on the tracks in between stations.

The Pink Line did include complete rebuilding of the tracks and it does run a lot faster than it used to. The Brown Line tracks are not in as bad of shape as the Pink Line was. One could argue that the Brown Line could stand to be rebuilt in the same fashion, but it's been maintained better and it has more curves and would be a much bigger impact on riders during construction. I think the CTA would do better to propose extending the Brown to meet the Blue as a subway and, at the same time, converting the current ground-level portions of the line to a subway so that the entire length is grade-separated. One can dream, anyway.

the brown line: i avoid it, really. you are correct that i didn't grasp the project fully. your explanation does reinforce the point that the older sections of the el require extensive and cost prohibitive rebuilding, otherwise there will be patchwork into infinity.

the green line (which was closed for a 2 year rebuilding), could have stayed closed and demolished imo, and would have gone down in history forgotten as the nearby expressway median red and blue lines did quite well in absorbing the passengers during that time (i do not reside along that corridor, though). funds could have been spent on a more modern el into transit poor areas (the 606 park spur, for instance). the green line must be better/faster now though, haven’t heard complaints. during dan ryan south reconstruction, it was very convenient to have another rail line right next door for the re-route.

new mediums of transit need to be adopted (other than BRT); nostalgia does not get you there efficiently.

This thread shouldn't veer into arcane Chicago facts but the Brown Line's "Ravenswood Connector" is currently getting just such a rehab, between Armitage and Merchandise Mart. Lots of new welding, repair of damaged components, and (hopefully) a total repainting of the structure.

That Cityplace graphic is cool. It's crazy that DART sank so much money into only one station when the rest of the system is of a lower grade.

I'd argue that what needs to be embraced is TOD zoning that brings ridership and usage up to levels where improving service becomes not just more cost-effective, but more politically possible.

yes, chicago's transit is an exercise in frustration. welding and repairs will have to be repeated again and again (patchwork). the newer transit systems are fortunate to be building from scratch.

derek, what is portland's station called which the deepest? i want to look it up.

They were originally going to have it run along the Katy Line, but the rich folk who live in Highland Park objected, thus cutting out the only reasonable way out the north end of downtown Dallas. The subway was a very expensive alternative. There's been rumors about room for a second station to the north of Cityplace, called Knox / Henderson, but that's never been substantiated. It would make a great place for a station since there's a high end retail in that area.

yeah cityplace is pretty cool. its an interesting experiment for dart rail. more to come in the future closer to downtown no doubt.

Knox/Henderson
It's more than a rumor, the box for the station is there. (Box is same as Cityplace) And is setup as an emergency exit. (Exit near Willis street at the NB 75) You can actually see the plywood/concrete blocks where they walled it off from the tracks if you look out the windows closely, pay attention to elevation it's actually the lowest point in the tunnel.

Edit to add, you can even easily find one of the vents at the NE corner of Willis and Central. (across from the La Quinta.)

*Long ago when the line first opened you could actually see the roughed in box before it was closed up.

i wish most of the cities in the us were like vancouver, small and with grade separate trains.

portland will be just as good as vancouver someday, well if a eathquake doesnt destroy the west coast

4 stations... it wouldve been the same size as Pittsburgh's anemic system.

It would take a miracle to get a subway in Indianapolis. Getting closer to getting some sort of rail transit but it is a difficult fight. Very conservative area. The arguments of course are that the city isn't dense enough (even though cities of similar density have done it), the money is better spent on roads, nobody will use it, make it pay for itself, no new taxes, blah blah blah.

i dont think so. had it opened when originally intended it would be much more than that today. you dont stand still or go back when something like a subway system gets started up, you only go forward. someday the streetcar light rail system cinci is now building may find a way to incorporate the tunnel. once its a success and shuts the critics down that is. even if not, of course its always going to be there, so i would never count it out.

st louis re-used a freight tunnel under downtown to run subwayed light rail, i wonder how many other cities could do the same. also, im pretty sure st louis had elevated passenger rail tracks downtown at one point. you can still see elevated interurban north of downtown thats being turned into an elevated bike trail.