SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   General Development (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=86)
-   -   NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185034)

eleven=11 Oct 27, 2014 4:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 6784340)
yes "aspirational" indeed. this is always interesting, but really lets just keep to plugging along with moynihan station. moving msg and a new penn station is a nice idea for someday, but moynihan is needed right now.

yes who is going to PAY to tear down the garden and Two Penn Plaza?
how much money to repair/rebuild Penn Station?
what reason would Vornado demolish a good building?

any updates on the Moynihan Amtrak station?

sparkling Oct 27, 2014 4:52 PM

^^^
If you are asking me, this large scale redevelopment is not happening. At most, we will get some new entrances as suggested in Moving the Garden Would Pave the Way for a New Penn Station article above and some other minor improvements. Everything else is just daydreaming but that's just my 50 cents.

Crawford Oct 27, 2014 5:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkling (Post 6784444)
^^^
If you are asking me, this large scale redevelopment is not happening. At most, we will get some new entrances as suggested in Moving the Garden Would Pave the Way for a New Penn Station article above and some other minor improvements. Everything else is just daydreaming but that's just my 50 cents.

MSG has to leave within 8 years. They have no lease beyond then.

The Garden will either relocate, or there will be no more Garden. This site is being redeveloped.

sparkling Oct 27, 2014 6:01 PM

^^^
I know that the Garden's lease is up soon. Still, I think that the area will only see minor changes unlike the bold visions unveiled last year. Let's wait and see what happens:cheers:

eleven=11 Oct 27, 2014 7:27 PM

come on people use some common sense
the odds of the garden moving are 1 in a 100
the Mayor of NYC will make a compromise and renovate instead.

any updates on the Moynihan Station???

Perklol Oct 27, 2014 7:34 PM

It will happen. The only obstacles here are the knicks/rangers naysayers that don't want this obsolete arena to go.

Crawford Oct 27, 2014 7:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eleven=11 (Post 6784690)
come on people use some common sense
the odds of the garden moving are 1 in a 100
the Mayor of NYC will make a compromise and renovate instead.

I think you need to use some common sense here.

The Garden has already moved 4 times, and the Dolans were on the verge of leaving the existing Garden twice, once in the late 1990's, and again about 5 years ago.

In reality, the odds of the Dolans staying in the current Garden are 1 in 100. The Garden is the oldest arena in sports, it's a terrible use of very valuable property (development rights for 6 million square feet), and is a horribly outdated facility.

But the main reason the Garden will have to leave is because it's lease is ending, and the lease is controlled by the city.

The city is in charge here, and it would be pretty implausible to think that the Dolans would simultaneously choose to keep an outdated arena, forgo huge revenues, lose tax benefits, and somehow would be able to change the mind of both the mayor and the 48 NYC councilpersons who voted to end the MSG lease, all for the benefit of keeping a dumpy arena.

eleven=11 Oct 27, 2014 8:14 PM

what is the policy for these old post office buildings???
seems like all major cities have them, some more valuable then other....
the newish Colts Stadium in Indy has one across the street

aquablue Oct 27, 2014 9:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eleven=11 (Post 6784690)
come on people use some common sense
the odds of the garden moving are 1 in a 100
the Mayor of NYC will make a compromise and renovate instead.

any updates on the Moynihan Station???

They just renovated it. I highly doubt a another renovation in 10 years will be worth it. I mean, how much can they put lipstick on a pig on an aging structure that is not going to last forever without expensive maintenance.

WestSideGuy Oct 28, 2014 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquablue (Post 6784871)
They just renovated it. I highly doubt a another renovation in 10 years will be worth it. I mean, how much can they put lipstick on a pig on an aging structure that is not going to last forever without expensive maintenance.

I think all of you who use the word "renovation" have not been inside the arena. It truly was a "transformation", it looks nothing like it did previously. If you saw any of the specials on MSG, they pretty much redid the steal inside the arena. It's practically brand new in there.

With that being said, I still want the Garden to move into the annex section of the Farley Post office. That idea will make more sense to Dolan now that Manhattan West and Hudson Yards have extended the city west and that area will be much more desirable.

aquablue Oct 29, 2014 7:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WestSideGuy (Post 6785355)
I think all of you who use the word "renovation" have not been inside the arena. It truly was a "transformation", it looks nothing like it did previously. If you saw any of the specials on MSG, they pretty much redid the steal inside the arena. It's practically brand new in there.

With that being said, I still want the Garden to move into the annex section of the Farley Post office. That idea will make more sense to Dolan now that Manhattan West and Hudson Yards have extended the city west and that area will be much more desirable.

Well, excuuuuse me for using the incorrect term, Mr. Dictionary.

Perklol Oct 30, 2014 12:43 AM

^ Don't apologize to the Dolan's shill.

Rail>Auto Oct 31, 2014 8:30 AM

Tearing down Penn Station was a tragedy. But tearing down MSG would be the same. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Tearing down the high rise next to it for a new Penn Station would work but don't tear down an arena like MSG, esp post renovation.

When you look at the proposals put out a few years ago, it seems to me a new Penn Station should be something huge and dramatic yet contain architecture from the past. That should be in the MSG area, not over MSG.

aquablue Oct 31, 2014 8:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rail>Auto (Post 6789744)
Tearing down Penn Station was a tragedy. But tearing down MSG would be the same. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Tearing down the high rise next to it for a new Penn Station would work but don't tear down an arena like MSG, esp post renovation.

When you look at the proposals put out a few years ago, it seems to me a new Penn Station should be something huge and dramatic yet contain architecture from the past. That should be in the MSG area, not over MSG.

Where would u put it then, because the tracks lay underneath MSG and that's the only place.

Busy Bee Oct 31, 2014 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rail>Auto (Post 6789744)
Tearing down Penn Station was a tragedy. But tearing down MSG would be the same. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Tearing down the high rise next to it for a new Penn Station would work but don't tear down an arena like MSG, esp post renovation.

When you look at the proposals put out a few years ago, it seems to me a new Penn Station should be something huge and dramatic yet contain architecture from the past. That should be in the MSG area, not over MSG.

Funniest thing I've read all year.

k1052 Oct 31, 2014 2:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rail>Auto (Post 6789744)
Tearing down Penn Station was a tragedy. But tearing down MSG would be the same. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Tearing down the high rise next to it for a new Penn Station would work but don't tear down an arena like MSG, esp post renovation.

When you look at the proposals put out a few years ago, it seems to me a new Penn Station should be something huge and dramatic yet contain architecture from the past. That should be in the MSG area, not over MSG.

A new head house without redoing the track layout/platforms/vertical circulation is a pointless waste of money. Penn was never designed to deal with the peaky commuter traffic that is does. The platforms are too narrow, there are not enough stairs, circulation is a horror show. GCT gets away with this kind of use because it has an almost absurd number of tracks available but even it has reached the limits of the interlocking plant/design and the Park Ave tunnel during peak.

TonyNYC Oct 31, 2014 4:11 PM

The plan a few years back to move MSG to the West side of the Farley Post Office made the most sense, but that idea died and MSG went ahead with a billion dollar transformation of the Garden. The Farley idea would've been great, Kept MSG close by, utilized the Farley Post Office completely, and open up the old MSG to development of a NEW Penn Station and Tower.

Personally, if that would have happened, I would've wanted the New Penn to be as much a copy as the grand Old Penn Station, with modern conveniences.

As for those who say the Garden is outdated today.. it's obvious that those people have not stepped foot inside the new arena... it has been totally rebuilt from within.. totally new and it looks awesome now!

WestSideGuy Oct 31, 2014 4:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyNYC (Post 6789997)
The plan a few years back to move MSG to the West side of the Farley Post Office made the most sense, but that idea died and MSG went ahead with a billion dollar transformation of the Garden. The Farley idea would've been great, Kept MSG close by, utilized the Farley Post Office completely, and open up the old MSG to development of a NEW Penn Station and Tower.

Personally, if that would have happened, I would've wanted the New Penn to be as much a copy as the grand Old Penn Station, with modern conveniences.

As for those who say the Garden is outdated today.. it's obvious that those people have not stepped foot inside the new arena... it has been totally rebuilt from within.. totally new and it looks awesome now!

Tony, that's what I was trying to tell people a few days ago. They keep talking about how MSG is a dump, but as a person who travels a lot and goes to many sporting events, the transformed MSG is one of the most modern sports arenas in the NBA and I would assume NHL now.

The Farley annex is the best idea for the future move of the arena. NO ONE would have thought 5 years ago that the west side would be so desirable. Certainly not Dolan, he has no foresight. But now, with Manhattan West just finishing the decking over the yards, and signing an anchor tenant, plus the whole Hudson Yards complex one avenue away, the Farley annex is a great location for the next MSG.

Dolan plus the developers should work together to come up with a plan for 10 years time.

Perklol Nov 1, 2014 1:49 AM

thats enough now dolan shills

Eidolon Dec 13, 2014 10:00 PM

A Late Arrival, Yes, But Moynihan Station Construction Is On Track
December 4, 2014
BY RAANAN GEBERER

Quote:

Take a walk past the James A. Farley Post Office on Eighth Ave., between 31st and 33rd Sts., and you’ll see evidence that — after years of planning — the Moynihan Station project is finally under way, and poised to give Penn Station a grand new entrance.

The northern half of the front steps have been cordoned off. Two cranes are positioned near the 33rd St. side. On the building’s northeastern side, a small staircase leading to the street has been removed. On several recent visits, cement was being poured for a street-level walkway that will lead to one of the new entrances and construction workers were operating jackhammers, Caterpillar vehicles and cranes. Along Eighth Ave., the mesh barriers display renderings showing what the building will look like when the project is finished (Phase 1 Opening 2016 | esd.ny.gov/moynihan), and white mesh barriers along the length of the steps announce that the work is being done by the huge construction firm, Skanska USA.

“We’re installing a new skeleton [below street level],” one worker told this reporter. “All new steel!”

http://1v9vs2crct23kkf8ttrqsixx.wpen..._Moyn_Sign.jpg

http://1v9vs2crct23kkf8ttrqsixx.wpen..._Moyn_33St.jpg

http://1v9vs2crct23kkf8ttrqsixx.wpen...n_33Insert.jpg

NYC4Life Dec 14, 2014 9:19 PM

What a relief to finally see this take off.

eleven=11 Dec 16, 2014 12:32 AM

is there a link for more pictures of the Moynihan Station construction progress??
also dont you think the mayor will compromise with MSG arena
and help to renovate the main parts of the train station.
400-500 millions to renovate/and or manage
I dont think NYC has the money to force out the the arena
and then pay for its own renovation......

OptimumPx Jan 13, 2015 1:46 PM

A 'suspicious' fire at Penn Station, in the under construction area at the Post Office. This will set things back a good bit.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/01/...under-control/
Quote:

Structural engineers are on hand to assess the damage to the station. The cause of the fire is under investigation.
http://gothamist.com/attachments/jen...1_midfire1.jpg
http://gothamist.com/2015/01/13/susp...alarm_fire.php

yankeesfan1000 Jan 22, 2015 2:32 PM

Per Bloomberg, the State's budget is allocating $250MM to extend Metro North to Penn.

chris08876 Apr 8, 2015 3:05 PM

Vornado Could Give New York’s Penn Station Area New Lease on Life

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/i...0407153327.jpg

Quote:

The area around New York’s Pennsylvania Station has long remained gritty and clogged with commuters as much of the rest of Manhattan has flourished.

Now Vornado Realty Trust is gearing up to change that.

One of the nation’s largest office landlords, Vornado is hoping to spark a revitalization of the area, where it is by far the dominant landowner, by investing hundreds of millions of dollars in new retail space, public plazas and other infrastructure, according to real-estate executives briefed on the plans.

The aim is to improve the desirability of the area’s office buildings, which are now deemed to be in a second-rate location and thus draw second-tier rent. If successful, it could mean dramatic growth in property value for Vornado. The company owns about nine million square feet in the neighborhood, including the 57-story 1 Penn Plaza, a portfolio with an estimated value of about $5.5 billion, according to Green Street Advisors.

“There is no reason that we cannot achieve very, very substantial rising rents in Penn Plaza—very substantial, enormous—with a little TLC,” Vornado Chief Executive Steven Roth said at a Citigroup Inc. investor conference last month, according to a transcript. “That’s going to be the principal focus of Vornado in the next short period of time, [the] next couple of years.”

These ambitions illustrate a new chapter for Vornado, which for the past three years has been slimming down by shedding extraneous businesses, including its huge portfolio of strip malls, to appease investor demands for simplicity. Now, with the company focused on offices and retail in New York and Washington, D.C., Mr. Roth appears to be shifting his attention again to growth.

The big question is whether the company will pull the trigger on the revamp of the Penn Station area.

Mr. Roth, 73 years old, has a reputation for indecision, taking his time on big moves and vacillating among different plans for years.

For a decade, he has been pledging to either rehabilitate the 1,700-room Hotel Pennsylvania across from Penn Station or to demolish it and replace it with an office tower. He still hasn’t announced a decision.

Before that, there was the former Alexander’s department store site on 59th Street and Lexington Ave., which sat vacant for years before he decided on a plan. Ultimately, this proved lucrative, as Vornado built the 55-story home of Bloomberg LP, topped by condominiums.

Still, analysts say Mr. Roth is energized as never before to overhaul the company before he retires—a move he has signaled is coming but isn’t imminent.

“They did have a reputation for being a very reluctant seller, very slow to make a decision,” said John Guinee, an analyst at Stifel, Nicolaus & Co. But as the company has simplified, Mr. Guinee says that has changed. “Vornado has displayed a sense of aggressiveness” lately, he said.

Mr. Roth appears to be highly focused on the Penn Station area, where he gradually built up his holdings throughout the 2000s. He recently hired Marc Ricks, a former economic-development official who worked in the administration of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, in part to work on the Penn Plaza plan. And the company contacted numerous architects last year for ideas about how to remake the area, and has showed some renderings to potential tenants.

[...]
================================
http://www.wsj.com/articles/vornado-...rk_real_estate

Submariner Apr 8, 2015 3:55 PM

I hope so - that area is a joke.

NYC4Life Apr 9, 2015 8:19 PM

Raze that damn Duane Reade store, that could be a good start.

chris08876 Apr 13, 2015 1:19 PM

Vornado's upgrade of Penn Station area begins with new tech tenant

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pb...20150410141128

Quote:

Online marketing company Yodle is ditching a cool Manhattan neighborhood—and home to other tech firms—for one that is not quite as hip. The move is seen as a win for Vornado Realty Trust, which wants to transform the area surrounding Penn Station into the city’s next "in" destination for office and retail tenants.

Yodle will be moving into a new 114,000-square-foot space at Vornado's 330 W. 34th St. next week. Yodle is taking the top three floors in the 18-story, 700,000-square-foot property. The firm will be leaving 50 W. 23rd St.
In order to entice Yodle, Vornado agreed to build a dramatic 30-foot by 60-foot glass skylight in the space. The skylight, which sits above a central staircase that will connect the company’s three floors and disperse natural light throughout the space, created the kind of amenity that will make staff and visitors think about the building and the area in a whole new way, the company said.

“This neighborhood is going to be phenomenal,” said Yodle’s CEO, Court Cunningham. “But our primary concern was getting a space that will have high ceilings and lots of light and easy circulation and facilitate an open and collaborative environment.”

Mr. Cunningham said nearly $10 million was spent building the new office, including the elaborate and spacious skylight, with $6.4 million coming from Vornado and $2.2 million from Yodle. The tech firm is spending an additional $1 million furnishing the location. Yodle will initially take about 85,000 square feet and then grow into the full 114,000 square feet it leased over the next two years. In the next three years, Mr. Cunningham said he expects to almost double the number of employees from about 300 today to 550.
===============================
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...ew-tech-tenant

chris08876 Apr 14, 2015 5:59 AM

Fashion Week Moving to Moynihan Station, Report Says

Quote:

The city's general post office is going couture.

New York Fashion Week will move to the Skylight at Moynihan Station, an event space inside the majestic building that houses the city's main post office branch at Eighth Avenue and 33rd Street, WWD first reported.

The Spring 2016 NYFW events will also take place inside Skylight Clarkson Square at 550 Washington St. in the West Village, according to Racked.

Fashion Week, where top designers show collections each year, was booted from its former home at Lincoln Center after park advocates sued the city's parks department for improper use of public space.

The new space is likely an interim home before a move to Hudson Yards' planned Culture Shed, according to Racked.
===============================
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2015...on-report-says

sparkling Jun 2, 2015 8:33 PM

Vornado plans overhaul of Penn Plaza led by Snohetta

JUNE 2, 2015
Bloomberg News

Quote:

Vornado Realty Trust, the dominant property owner in the area surrounding Manhattan's Pennsylvania Station, hired the Snohetta architecture firm to design a master plan for an overhaul of its real estate in the district.

"It's the busiest transportation hub in North America, but it has very much been left behind," Mark Ricks, Vornado's senior vice president of development, said Monday evening at a meeting of a committee of Community Board 5, a group of neighborhood residents.

Snohetta, the Oslo-based firm that designed the public plaza in Times Square, has been asked to create a "framework" for the redesign of Vornado's buildings and street-level spaces in Penn Plaza, Ricks said. The landlord also is planning to close off a portion of West 33rd Street and limit nearby vehicular traffic in an experiment that may lead to a permanent pedestrian area near Madison Square Garden.

New York City officials have long wanted improvements in the area, which has suffered since the 1960s, when the old Beaux Arts Penn Station was torn down and replaced by Madison Square Garden and an office building, with the train station pushed underground. Fixing up the Penn Station and Madison Square Garden area is Vornado's "Big Kahuna," Chairman Steven Roth said in his annual letter to investors in April.

Roth has said he wants to capitalize on the development taking place to the west of the station, including the transformation of the James A. Farley post office building into a new regional transportation hub to be called Moynihan Station, and the Hudson Yards developments further to the west.

'Inextricably Linked'

Many Vornado buildings "are inextricably linked" to Penn Station, Ricks said. The real estate investment trust has more than 9 million square feet (836,000 square meters) of properties in Penn Plaza, including the 2 Penn Plaza office building above Penn Station and 1 Penn Plaza just to the north.

"As a public company with obligations to our shareholders, we want them to think about opportunities to upgrade our holdings for the benefit of our office tenants and shoppers, but we've also asked them to consider how to effectuate meaningful improvements to the station experience," Ricks said.

Once Snohetta's master plan is complete, different architects may be engaged to redesign individual buildings and public spaces, Ricks said.

"Snohetta and Vornado are working together to enliven the Penn District," Craig Dykers, a founder of the architecture firm, said in an e-mailed statement. "Our goals are to promote comfort and cultivate new identity to the district, dramatically improving the pedestrian, commuter and working environments surrounding what is the busiest transportation hub in America."

Street Closures

Vornado is poised to at least partially close off some streets that service what Ricks called "the collision of humanity," the hundreds of thousands of commuters who jam the streets near Penn Station. He described these closings as a temporary effort to collect data to be used to devise more permanent solutions.

Starting around July 19, and extending to Oct. 11, 33rd Street between Seventh Avenue and the Garden's loading dock will be completely closed, Ricks said. The street will be transformed into a pedestrian plaza, which could feature tables for dining, as well as musical performances, games and other forms of entertainment. Images he showed the committee included a yoga class and a juggler.

Thirty-Second Street would be limited to a single travel lane of vehicles, to open up more space for people to freely walk. The Vornado-owned Hotel Pennsylvania and Manhattan Mall make up the entire north side of that block.

Vornado has agreed to pay all costs associated with these efforts, Ricks said. He said the company plans to work "in close consultation" with the city and the 34th Street Partnership, which represents retailers in the area.

Ricks previously served as chief of staff to then-Deputy Mayor Daniel Doctoroff, who later became president of Bloomberg LP, the parent company of Bloomberg News.

Gloria Chin, a spokeswoman for the city department of transportation, didn't immediately respond to an e-mailed inquiry about the project.

C. Jun 2, 2015 8:47 PM

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/i...0407153327.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYC4Life (Post 6984102)
Raze that damn Duane Reade store, that could be a good start.

The one story retail structure is a product of zoning. In order to achieve the high density of 1 Penn Plaza, the other areas of the lot was artificially reduced in intensity. Additionally, New York's zoning code also offers density bonuses for private plazas and open spaces. It sounds good in theory but the unintended consequence is this shit.

I wish there was minimum height limits and building coverages to prevent crap like that from ever being built again.

BrownTown Jun 2, 2015 9:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CIA (Post 7048353)
I wish there was minimum height limits and building coverages to prevent crap like that from ever being built again.

What is even the justification for these sort of zoning laws? I never understood why a city like NYC thought they needed to keep buildings shorter or make people pay absurd amounts of money or make absurd open areas like this just to get higher. Shouldn't NYC embrace height instead of trying to fight it?

C. Jun 2, 2015 9:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrownTown (Post 7048376)
What is even the justification for these sort of zoning laws? I never understood why a city like NYC thought they needed to keep buildings shorter or make people pay absurd amounts of money or make absurd open areas like this just to get higher. Shouldn't NYC embrace height instead of trying to fight it?

NYC's Department of Planning website has a good background:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/zone/zonehis.shtml

Quote:

As early as the 1870’s and 1880’s, New Yorkers began to protest the loss of light and air as taller residential buildings began to appear in Manhattan. In response, the state legislature enacted a series of height restrictions on residential buildings, culminating in the Tenement House Act of 1901.

By then, New York City had become the financial center of the country and expanding businesses needed office space. With the introduction of steel frame construction techniques and improved elevators, technical restraints that had limited building height vanished. The Manhattan skyline was beginning to assume its distinctive form.

In 1915, when the 42-story Equitable Building was erected in Lower Manhattan, the need for controls on the height and form of all buildings became clear. Rising without setbacks to its full height of 538 feet, the Equitable Building cast a seven-acre shadow over neighboring buildings, affecting their value and setting the stage for the nation’s first comprehensive zoning resolution.

Other forces were also at work during the same period. Housing shortages, caused by an influx of new immigrants, created a market for tenements built to maximum bulk and minimum standards. Warehouses and factories began to encroach upon the fashionable stores along Ladies’ Mile, edging uncomfortably close to Fifth Avenue. Intrusions like these and the impacts of rapid growth added urgency to the calls of reformers for zoning restrictions separating residential, commercial and manufacturing uses and for new and more effective height and setback controls for all uses.

The concept of enacting a set of laws to govern land use and bulk was revolutionary, but the time had come for the city to regulate its surging physical growth. The groundbreaking Zoning Resolution of 1916, though a relatively simple document, established height and setback controls and designated residential districts that excluded what were seen as incompatible uses. It fostered the iconic tall, slender towers that came to epitomize the city’s business districts and established the familiar scale of three- to six-story residential buildings found in much of the city. The new ordinance became a model for urban communities throughout the United States as other growing cities found that New York’s problems were not unique.

But, while other cities were adopting the New York model, the model itself refused to stand still. The Zoning Resolution was frequently amended to be responsive to major shifts in population and land use caused by a variety of factors: continuing waves of immigration that helped to swell the city’s population from five million in 1916 to over eight million in 2010; new mass transit routes and the growth corridors they created; the emergence of technology and consequent economic and lifestyle changes; the introduction of government housing and development programs; and, perhaps more than anything else, the increase in automobile usage, which revolutionized land use patterns and created traffic and parking problems never imagined in 1916.

By mid-century, many of the underlying planning principles of the 1916 document no longer stood the test of time. If, for example, the city had been built out at the density envisioned in 1916, it could have contained over 55 million people, far beyond its realistic capacity. New theories were capturing the imaginations of planners. Le Corbusier’s “tower-in-the-park” model was influencing urban designers of the time and the concept of incentive zoning - trading additional floor area for public amenities - began to take hold. The last, still vacant areas on the city’s edges needed to be developed at densities that recognized the new, automobile-oriented lifestyle. Also, demands to make zoning approvals simpler, swifter and more comprehensible were a constant.

Eventually, it was evident that the original 1916 framework needed to be completely reconsidered. After lengthy study and public debate, the current Zoning Resolution was enacted and took effect in 1961.

The PDF Document 1961 Zoning Resolution (30.6 MB) was a product of its time. It coordinated use and bulk regulations, incorporated parking requirements and emphasized the creation of
open space. It introduced incentive zoning by adding a bonus of extra floor space to encourage developers of office buildings and apartment towers to incorporate plazas into their projects. In the city’s business districts, it accommodated a new type of high-rise office building with large, open floors of a consistent size. Elsewhere in the city, the 1961 Zoning Resolution dramatically reduced residential densities, largely at the edges of the city.

Although based upon the leading planning theories of the day, aspects of those zoning policies have revealed certain shortcomings over the years. The emphasis on open space sometimes resulted in buildings that overwhelm their surroundings, and the open spaces created by incentive zoning provisions have not always been useful or attractive. Urban design theories have changed as well. Today, tower-in-the-park developments, set back far from the city street, are often viewed as isolating and contrary to the goal of creating a vibrant urban streetscape.

Time passes, land uses change, and zoning policy accommodates, anticipates and guides those changes. In a certain sense, zoning is never final; it is renewed constantly in response to new ideas—and to new challenges.

BrownTown Jun 2, 2015 11:22 PM

Yeah, I understand WHAT they were trying to achieve, I just don't understand WHY. It just seems a little counterintuitive to want to live in NYC and then complain about lack of sunlight. If you want sunlight then move to Los Angeles or somewhere similar. NYC has Central Park if people want to get away from the skyscrapers and that beats all these little plazas and parks combined. Not to mention that a tall tower surrounded by open area is an incredibly inefficient use of land and money. The taller a building gets the less usable space there is per floor (because it's being taken up by more elevators and columns) and the more it costs per square foot. It seems like the current zoning practices just drive down density and consequently drive up rents.

Busy Bee Jun 2, 2015 11:36 PM

So does this mean 2PP is guaranteed to stand for many more decades hindering plans for a new Penn Station?

chris08876 Aug 10, 2015 8:25 PM

Penn Station's New Public Plaza

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...a/IMG_5044.jpg

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...e/IMG_5041.jpg

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...5/IMG_5029.jpg

Quote:

The design team that turned Times Square into an archipelago of pedestrian islands brought their expertise to Penn Station, where a new public plaza has been unveiled. The Snohetta-designed plaza, located on 33rd Street between 7th Avenue and Madison Square Garden's loading dock, is part of landlord Vornado's plan to make the area surrounding Penn Station less of a hell hole (because lord knows that the actual station won't be improved any time soon), and so far, it seems to be working. Granted, the plaza has only been open for a day, but a mid-morning jaunt to the area did not incite feelings of dread or leave us in a murderous rage.

Most of the new plaza is simply painted road that gives pedestrians much more space, but there are also several wooden benches that double as planters and sculptures by Keith Haring and Roy Lichtenstein. There are also two sets of wooden steps, similar to the TKTS booth stairs in Times Square, and audio equipment indicated that they might be setting up for one of the promise performances.

On Friday, Untapped snapped a few photos of the plaza under construction, and according to a halal cart vendor on the plaza, today is the first day it opened to the public. Enjoy it while you can because it will only exist until October 11.
============================
http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2015/0...nd_of_nice.php

phoenixboi08 Aug 11, 2015 1:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris08876 (Post 7124456)
Penn Station's New Public Plaza

============================
http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2015/0...nd_of_nice.php

It almost makes me consider lingering in the area...

giantSwan Aug 18, 2015 2:54 AM

just overhaul this entire area already

aquablue Sep 14, 2015 12:41 AM

If they can get msg to move, the area will take off. I am hoping that penn is rebuilt someday. There are loads of far available to develop a new CBD around penn. I predict that this will be the final area of mega development after the current Hudson yards and midtown east are built out barring more rezoning.

Then again, far in the future given the focus on Hudson yards right now.

sparkling Jan 6, 2016 6:25 PM

Gov. Cuomo to Back a Penn Station Overhaul
Plan would focus on improvements for busy New York travel hub serving Amtrak, NJ Transit and LIRR

ANDREW TANGEL
January 05, 2016

Quote:

New York’s Penn Station, long ridiculed as outdated, crowded and miserable for travelers, would undergo a major overhaul under a plan expected to be announced as soon as this week, according to people familiar with the matter.

The nation’s busiest train station and a main hub on Manhattan’s West Side, Penn Station has become a focus for New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, who has sought to stake much of his legacy on upgrading the state’s aging infrastructure.

Mr. Cuomo, a Democrat, is expected to announce a plan for a major revamp of Penn Station as soon as this week, these people said.

A spokesman for Mr. Cuomo declined to comment.

The plan is expected to involve jump-starting a long-stalled project to build what is known as Moynihan Station, a project stretching back to the administration of the governor’s father, Mario Cuomo.

Continue Reading

Busy Bee Jan 6, 2016 7:36 PM

What a way to dream big.

Submariner Jan 6, 2016 8:19 PM

The only way to overhaul Penn is to tear down MSG and the cesspool of a office tower on top of it and rebuild from scratch.

mrnyc Jan 7, 2016 5:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Submariner (Post 7290096)
The only way to overhaul Penn is to tear down MSG and the cesspool of a office tower on top of it and rebuild from scratch.

i think it would be wise to rebuild out moynihan first dont you? ;)

then you will get your wish.

C. Jan 7, 2016 6:29 PM

I don't know what to make of this except to say that Penn needs a complete overhaul. It would be a waste of funds to put only a cosmetic band-aid.

For the economic health of the region, train capacity needs to be increased, followed by quality of commute improvements.

C. Jan 7, 2016 6:50 PM

Say what?!? MSG supports the plan!!

http://www.playbill.com/news/article...theatre-378035

MSG, the company that runs Madison Square Garden and several other key large venues in New York City, says its supports Gov. Andrew Cuomo's railroad station renovation plan that may call for the "friendly" demolition of one of its theatres.

At a Jan. 6 press conference Gov. Cuomo unveiled several proposals to convert the former Foley Post Office on the west side of Eighth Avenue at 34th Street into a bright, modernistic new station, which would replace Pennsylvania Station, the main New York City terminal for both the Long Island Railroad and the New Jersey PATH trains—therefore one of the major access points for theatregoers from those two regions. The governor said he has earmarked $3 billion for the project, which includes retail development on neighboring streets. He said the state is seeking developers to carry out the project.

- See more at: http://www.playbill.com/news/article....FBeRF1zK.dpuf

C. Jan 7, 2016 6:52 PM

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2016/0...s_revealed.php

http://ny.curbed.com/uploads/2384979...f2_k-thumb.jpg
http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...03f13bd3_k.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYEOGMwUsAAeGhn.jpg

BBMW Jan 8, 2016 10:33 PM

This is now a dome deal. MSG is going nowhere. They will sacrifice the little theater under the arena to allow Penn Station improvements. Those who wanted to get rid of MSG will not get their wish.

BrownTown Jan 9, 2016 1:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBMW (Post 7292925)
This is now a dome deal. MSG is going nowhere. They will sacrifice the little theater under the arena to allow Penn Station improvements. Those who wanted to get rid of MSG will not get their wish.

This deal is far from done. I give it 50% chance at best. This isn't the first time we've hard these tall tales and so far there and I doubt the budget is much better.

BBMW Jan 10, 2016 6:11 PM

Well, here's the kicker. The state could make the deal with MSG to take control of the theater in return for pushing through the renewal of the operating license for the main arena (which would cost the state nothing.) Then the state could not bother to come up with the money to execute the project. But MSG would still stay open. I could very easily see this happening.

pico44 Jan 10, 2016 9:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBMW (Post 7294423)
Well, here's the kicker. The state could make the deal with MSG to take control of the theater in return for pushing through the renewal of the operating license for the main arena (which would cost the state nothing.) Then the state could not bother to come up with the money to execute the project. But MSG would still stay open. I could very easily see this happening.



Well, which is it? Is it a "done deal" or could you "easily see this happening"?


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:53 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.