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-   -   CHICAGO: Transit Developments (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101657)

the urban politician Jul 1, 2010 1:14 AM

I once supported streetcars but the more time I spend in Chicago, the more I have to agree with the BRT folks. At the fraction of the cost, you get practically the same service--but not as "cool" as a streetcar.

Which is good. Why be like Portland and San Francisco anyhow? Screw those hipster havens, this is Chi-caw-go, damn it! You either ride an ancient, elevated monster or take the damn bus. ;)

Busy Bee Jul 1, 2010 4:13 AM

TUP, you dog.

Mr Downtown Jul 1, 2010 2:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 4896357)
Imagine if . . . CTA had modernized those corridors [such as Ashland with] central row partial grade separations

What is a partial grade separation (everybody duck)? Also, can you sketch or give dimensions for what you think would be a workable cross-section? Ashland is a 100-foot ROW. How would you handle curb parking? Left-turn storage? Would passengers board at safety islands or would you order special cars with offside doors for island platforms?

ardecila Jul 4, 2010 8:42 AM

Never read this, but Cecil Adams posted his plan for the Red/Purple Lines. Good stuff.

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9...lereconfig.jpg

I would personally eliminate Berwyn. The stop really only serves as a transfer point to the 92 - Foster bus, which can easily be rerouted to Argyle. If Argyle was rebuilt with a northern entrance at Winona, that would help to pick up some of Berwyn's riders.

Cecil doesn't mention it, but the precision called for at Howard - with Red and Purple Line trains making alternate departures every 2.5 minutes - would probably require Yellow Line trains to get their own track and platform somewhere in the Howard megacomplex. I have no idea where that might be, but CTA dispatching can barely handle Howard right now. I shudder to think of what it was like before the station was modernized. If you eliminated the Yellow Line and just ran every other Red Line train to Skokie, that would also solve the problem.

Also, for fairness' sake, I'd like to see what would happen if the Purple Line bypassed Wellington and Diversey, as in Cecil's plan, but then shifted back to the outer tracks at Armitage and headed to the Loop as it does today. Cutting two stops is not insignificant, and providing a high level of service to Chicago and the planned station at Division is important.

OhioGuy Jul 4, 2010 2:06 PM

Eliminate Berwyn? It's the station that most directly serves the heart of Andersonville (Berwyn & Clark intersection). Berwyn is the station that's most closely positioned near the midway point between Lawrence & Bryn Mawr, just one block north of Foster.

Mr Downtown Jul 4, 2010 2:09 PM

^Berwyn has a lot of walk-in boardings; transfers from the 92 are not a particularly significant source. It actually has more boardings than Argyle or Thorndale, and roughly the same as Granville or Lawrence.

Dec. 2009 ridership stats (PDF)

ardecila Jul 5, 2010 3:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioGuy (Post 4900064)
Eliminate Berwyn? It's the station that most directly serves the heart of Andersonville (Berwyn & Clark intersection). Berwyn is the station that's most closely positioned near the midway point between Lawrence & Bryn Mawr, just one block north of Foster.

Which is why I suggested "moving" the Argyle station north to a location between Foster and Argyle somewhere, where it could serve both streets equally well. Berwyn may have walk-in boardings, but it doesn't really support a transit-oriented business district like Argyle does. Many of those walk-ins at Berwyn might just as easily go to a Foster-Argyle station, or if they're at Balmoral or north, they'd just go to Bryn Mawr where, under Cecil's plan, they could catch an express train without a transfer.

Creating a new Foster station also solves the 'WTF' problem of naming important stations after minor streets.

It's all a moot point, really, because if you had a valid express service, you wouldn't need to close any local stations. It would save CTA a bit of money, though.

denizen467 Jul 5, 2010 4:46 AM

Weird, now that I think about it, Cecil Adams kind of reminds me of Mr Downtown, and vice versa. Weird...

VivaLFuego Jul 5, 2010 6:15 AM

Berwyn is also the layover location for the 92 and 146 --- don't discount the value of having a place where several buses can be lined up and parked for 10 minutes in a neighborhood as dense as Edgewater in which CTA neither owns nor leases any off-street bus turnarounds nearby.

Some renderings floated around a couple years back for a large "TOD" wherein that Dominick's next to Berwyn would get the mixed-use highrise treatment including an off-street bus terminal, but that was more of a concept created by Ald. Smith and planners rather than representing actual developer/landowner interest.

In terms of ridership, all of the North Main stations have strong walk-in ridership and serve unique markets that would be negatively impacted with any closings. Even the weakest station in the corridor, Jarvis, serves a distinct market from nearby Howard. There may be some efficiency to wring out via a closure or two and some new auxiliary entrances but eventually it might not be worth the trouble either politically or financially.

As regards new express stations, Wilson would be a dual-island-platform station if and when the $80+ million needed to completely rebuild it is finally kept in the 5-year capital budget for more than a year or two before the money is redirected for other purposes (mind you, it first started appearing in capital plans back around 1985, same as Howard). That said, the recent and ongoing sprucing up at the station in conjunction with the "North Red & Purple Vision Study" suggest the current plan is to try to bundle a large chunk of North Main rehab work into a single project to move through the federal funding process and market to legislators rather than deal with any further elements piecemeal.

jpIllInoIs Jul 5, 2010 4:29 PM

How will the Purple Line turn around at Roosevelt? I know that the conductor can simply go to the other end cab, but how will they switch tracks?

I do see a huge benefit of running the Purple line down the Red line Subway, this will free up the Elevated for more Brown-Green-Orange trains during rush hour.

Mr Downtown Jul 5, 2010 5:51 PM

^In Cecil's plan, the now-unused tracks between the subway portal at 13th and 18th Street would be used to lay up and turn back Purple Line trains. However, I have my doubts about whether the State Street Subway has the capacity to handle both Red & Purple.

When Cecil's Earthly Representative began musing about this plan a couple of months ago, he wanted to close all the stations north of Davis and do a couple of other things that, it was pointed out, had some political and practical problems. I'm not sure what about this watered-down version would be dramatically better than just running Purple Line service most of the time with a new stop at Wilson, and maybe fewer stops south of Belmont.

ardecila Jul 5, 2010 7:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 4901038)
When Cecil's Earthly Representative began musing about this plan a couple of months ago, he wanted to close all the stations north of Davis and do a couple of other things that, it was pointed out, had some political and practical problems. I'm not sure what about this watered-down version would be dramatically better than just running Purple Line service most of the time with a new stop at Wilson, and maybe fewer stops south of Belmont.

Cutting service north of Davis doesn't seem like a good idea. Is it possible to close either Noyes or Foster, and expand the remaining one? They're all in pretty poor shape, so they'll have to be rebuilt eventually. The question of whether to keep them or dump them will be considered seriously.

Any major rehab project should consider what to do at the grade crossings at Maple and Isabella. There are only two of them, so separating them would be a fairly simple matter, unlike a similar attempt would be on the Brown Line or Pink Line. You might even get away with closing Maple outright and putting in a pedestrian bridge - the sight of a new cul-de-sac ought to warm the hearts of many a Wilmettian.

Chicago3rd Jul 5, 2010 8:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpIllInoIs (Post 4900951)
How will the Purple Line turn around at Roosevelt? I know that the conductor can simply go to the other end cab, but how will they switch tracks?

I do see a huge benefit of running the Purple line down the Red line Subway, this will free up the Elevated for more Brown-Green-Orange trains during rush hour.

The brown line doesn't run on the same tracks as the Purple line in the loop. Except for the switching station in the NW portion of the loop I find the above ground L to be very user friendly.

Chicago3rd Jul 5, 2010 8:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 4901038)
^In Cecil's plan, the now-unused tracks between the subway portal at 13th and 18th Street would be used to lay up and turn back Purple Line trains. However, I have my doubts about whether the State Street Subway has the capacity to handle both Red & Purple.

When Cecil's Earthly Representative began musing about this plan a couple of months ago, he wanted to close all the stations north of Davis and do a couple of other things that, it was pointed out, had some political and practical problems. I'm not sure what about this watered-down version would be dramatically better than just running Purple Line service most of the time with a new stop at Wilson, and maybe fewer stops south of Belmont.

Exactly with regards to the Red & Purple line running during rush in the subway. Redline appears to be at capacity during the rush at this time.

jpIllInoIs Jul 6, 2010 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicago3rd (Post 4901171)
The brown line doesn't run on the same tracks as the Purple line in the loop. Except for the switching station in the NW portion of the loop I find the above ground L to be very user friendly.

Oh, I should have been more specific... It will free up the inner track space in the Loop for Orange line trains and it will free up the Ravenswood tracks from The Mart to Sedgwick.

Chicago3rd Jul 7, 2010 2:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpIllInoIs (Post 4901874)
Oh, I should have been more specific... It will free up the inner track space in the Loop for Orange line trains and it will free up the Ravenswood tracks from The Mart to Sedgwick.

From the Mart to Belmont the Brownline and Purple line are the same and treated so by the riders. Doesn't matter between the Mart and Sedgwick which train you take.

Good point with the Orange line.

OhioGuy Jul 7, 2010 3:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicago3rd (Post 4902959)
From the Mart to Belmont the Brownline and Purple line are the same and treated so by the riders. Doesn't matter between the Mart and Sedgwick which train you take.

Good point with the Orange line.

Is there a great need for more frequent orange line service to/from the loop?

Mr Downtown Jul 7, 2010 2:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicago3rd (Post 4902959)
Doesn't matter between the Mart and Sedgwick which train you take.

It matters if you're headed to Randolph/Wabash or Washington/Wells. One will be 12 minutes faster than the other.

VivaLFuego Jul 7, 2010 3:21 PM

In theory, Orange could be removed from the Loop altogether, with the new "Purple" line operating Linden-95th and the new "Red" operating Howard-Midway, or vice versa (the decision would best be made by looking at how the overall cycle times and peak demand patterns impact the vehicle requirement). This would also mitigate or eliminate the need for track and signal work at the 13th incline to support a terminal short-turning operation without interfering with the Green Line up above.

However, there are several issues. Firstly, this would only be operable and cost efficient if the service level on both the Dan Ryan branch and at local stations north of Belmont were reduced from their current levels (despite service on the "trunk" between Belmont-Roosevelt being increased), which makes it highly unlikely politically. Secondly, there is the consideration that Purple Line stations can only accommodate 6-car trains.

Chicago3rd Jul 7, 2010 7:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown (Post 4903356)
It matters if you're headed to Randolph/Wabash or Washington/Wells. One will be 12 minutes faster than the other.

The point was directed at the two specific points mentioned by the person I was responding to...between the Mart and Segdwick.

I concur totally with you about which side of the loop one will end up at. That is why many transfer between the brown and purple at the Mart as the L heads into the loop. But when I hit Belmont from the north the red line and want the elevated around the loop I will take which ever line comes first the brown or purple at Belmont and ride it to the Mart then change at the Mart depending on what side of the loop I wanted to end up on.


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