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BrownTown Nov 1, 2018 3:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropdeaded209 (Post 8364773)
why do new yorkers put up with this? isn't it supposed to be a city where everyone demands the best and that's why they pay more for almost everything? why do people who live in the city tolerate this nonsense?

i'm genuinely curious--or is the MTA back in working order now?

Because most people don't understand this sort of stuff so the only people who understand how corrupt it is are the people who benefit from that corruption. The politicians sure as heck aren't going to stop the unions that donate millions of dollars to their campaigns. It's much easier to just issue a few billion more in debt and stick the future taxpayers with the bill.

BrownTown Nov 2, 2018 12:35 PM

Another derailment and massive delays today. What else is new? This shit happens once a week. Doubt voters are going to do anything about it though, they'll just keep voting in the same politicians.

k1052 Nov 2, 2018 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrownTown (Post 8365898)
Another derailment and massive delays today. What else is new? This shit happens once a week. Doubt voters are going to do anything about it though, they'll just keep voting in the same politicians.

Amtrak equipment in an Amtrak tunnel. The MTA and NJT screw up a ton but this one doesn't appear to be on them.

BrownTown Nov 2, 2018 2:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8365920)
Amtrak equipment in an Amtrak tunnel. The MTA and NJT screw up a ton but this one doesn't appear to be on them.

This time, sure. But the infrastructure is the underlying problem. Needs to be fixed no matter who pays for it.

mrnyc Nov 5, 2018 7:15 PM

why staten island isnt connected by subway:


https://www.amny.com/transit/nyc-sub...and-1.22789344

chris08876 Nov 5, 2018 7:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 8369102)
why staten island isnt connected by subway:


https://www.amny.com/transit/nyc-sub...and-1.22789344

In this climate, the cost would be ridiculous. Shame because the island is a good opportunity to add much needed housing.

BrownTown Nov 5, 2018 8:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 8369102)
why staten island isnt connected by subway:

Staten Island is further away than a lot of people think. Huge swathes of NJ are closer and would make more sense to connect by subway. Although NJT serves a lot of these people so Staten Island is underserved in that regard.

k1052 Nov 5, 2018 8:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrownTown (Post 8369191)
Staten Island is further away than a lot of people think. Huge swathes of NJ are closer and would make more sense to connect by subway. Although NJT serves a lot of these people so Staten Island is underserved in that regard.

Any rational civilization would have run subway into Hudson and Bergen counties 50 years ago.

Busy Bee Nov 5, 2018 10:58 PM

This^

A PATH branch should have been built in lieu of the Hudson County southern leg of HBLR (and really ideally all of HBLR) though Bayonne and across to Staten Island. Any other place of planet earth would have realized this is what was needed, but of course the toxic combination of lack of political will and aggressive investment in transit as a national priority means it never happened.

While we are on the subject I've often thought that it's possible The TriboroRX scheme isn't ambitious enough. Instead of terminating at the bay it should dive into a trans-Hudson tunnel, cut across the north shore of SI, jump under or over the KVK though southern Bayonne and over the Newark Bay to Newark Airport. Of course this suggests the obvious question, why not have the "TriboroRX" be a PATH heavy rail line that connects Manhattan-EWR-SI-southern Brooklyn-JFK (with a split at Broadway Junction sharing tracks with Atlantic Ave LIRR until a new trench or tunnel under Conduit Ave an into JFK or a split at Linden Blvd with a tunnel under Linden until Conduit Ave). Certain trains would run to JFK from New Jersey and certain continuing up to the Bronx. This would effectively serve as a transit belt line for the dense core and in my opinion exactly the kind of massive Crossrail level investment that is necessary for the future of the city. To maximize the efficiency of new infrastructure the Conduit Ave route would also be shared by the proposed JFK super express to Manhattan.

Will O' Wisp Nov 6, 2018 2:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8369315)
Any rational civilization would have run subway into Hudson and Bergen counties 50 years ago.

A rational civilization would've annexed much of eastern NJ into NYC, or at least set up a single transit agency to coordinate infrastructure across the region. Unfortunately we do not live in rational civilization, and so large scale expansion of the subway in NJ requires negotiating between two state governments, three transit agencies, and dozens of municipal governments (all of which would have to hashed out in congress) because 400 years ago the British thought it would take too damn long to row across the Hudson for it to ever matter.

mrnyc Nov 7, 2018 4:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 8369519)
This^

A PATH branch should have been built in lieu of the Hudson County southern leg of HBLR (and really ideally all of HBLR) though Bayonne and across to Staten Island. Any other place of planet earth would have realized this is what was needed, but of course the toxic combination of lack of political will and aggressive investment in transit as a national priority means it never happened.

While we are on the subject I've often thought that it's possible The TriboroRX scheme isn't ambitious enough. Instead of terminating at the bay it should dive into a trans-Hudson tunnel, cut across the north shore of SI, jump under or over the KVK though southern Bayonne and over the Newark Bay to Newark Airport. Of course this suggests the obvious question, why not have the "TriboroRX" be a PATH heavy rail line that connects Manhattan-EWR-SI-southern Brooklyn-JFK (with a split at Broadway Junction sharing tracks with Atlantic Ave LIRR until a new trench or tunnel under Conduit Ave an into JFK or a split at Linden Blvd with a tunnel under Linden until Conduit Ave). Certain trains would run to JFK from New Jersey and certain continuing up to the Bronx. This would effectively serve as a transit belt line for the dense core and in my opinion exactly the kind of massive Crossrail level investment that is necessary for the future of the city. To maximize the efficiency of new infrastructure the Conduit Ave route would also be shared by the proposed JFK super express to Manhattan.


exactly -- i cant tell you how many times i've thought about a route like that.

add some cross bx service across tremont or pelham pkway/fordham rd too and i am in.

put this on a ballot -- reopen the polls! :tup:

phoenixboi08 Nov 8, 2018 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 8369519)
This^

A PATH branch should have been built in lieu of the Hudson County southern leg of HBLR (and really ideally all of HBLR) though Bayonne and across to Staten Island. Any other place of planet earth would have realized this is what was needed, but of course the toxic combination of lack of political will and aggressive investment in transit as a national priority means it never happened.

While we are on the subject I've often thought that it's possible The TriboroRX scheme isn't ambitious enough. Instead of terminating at the bay it should dive into a trans-Hudson tunnel, cut across the north shore of SI, jump under or over the KVK though southern Bayonne and over the Newark Bay to Newark Airport. Of course this suggests the obvious question, why not have the "TriboroRX" be a PATH heavy rail line that connects Manhattan-EWR-SI-southern Brooklyn-JFK (with a split at Broadway Junction sharing tracks with Atlantic Ave LIRR until a new trench or tunnel under Conduit Ave an into JFK or a split at Linden Blvd with a tunnel under Linden until Conduit Ave). Certain trains would run to JFK from New Jersey and certain continuing up to the Bronx. This would effectively serve as a transit belt line for the dense core and in my opinion exactly the kind of massive Crossrail level investment that is necessary for the future of the city. To maximize the efficiency of new infrastructure the Conduit Ave route would also be shared by the proposed JFK super express to Manhattan.

I don't know the specifics about the route, but if I understand it correctly maybe it'd make sense to just do LRT and integrate all the disparate lines that already exist.

Both the Bayonne and Goethals bridges have already been designed to accommodate LRT vehicles across their spans, which completely obviates the need to tunnel for connections between Staten Island and New Jersey.

Certainly, some type of PATH-LRT hybrid could at least be acceptable?
Not running LRT along PATH, but moreso the idea of conceiving of it as a PA property. I'd imagine it would be enough to effectively funnel Manhattan-bound passengers to Exchange Place and Hoboken and others into Brooklyn-Queens-The Bronx -- of course, long term, the LIRR needs to be extended from the Atlantic Terminal to WTC and on towards Jersey City-Bayonne-Newark...

Anyways, there must be some rolling-stock that is acceptable for street-running (most of the Newark and HBLR systems are in exclusive ROW anyways, and the parts that aren't could easily be made to do so), and also at excess of 40-50mph along conventional ROW?

I think there are such systems in Calgary and one planned for Ottawa?

I've always figured it best to integrate the Newark LRT with this project (as I've understood you to have laid it out) at EWR and the HBLR in Staten Island along the proposed West Short LRT, convert the existing SIRR to LRT, and build the TriboroughRX as LRT.

Provisionally, NJ could get off it's butt and build that planned Middlesex LRT from the Raritan Valley Line (somewhere around the Bound Brooks) to the NEC (at New Brunswick) and towards Elizabeth and across the Bayonne Bridge via the Amboys (which would connect to the North Jersey Coast Line).

As far as I understand it, a properly designed LRT system could easily achieve the through-put necessary (especially with accompanied service expansion on existing rail - NJ Transit, PATH, NYCT - services) and doesn't miss out on expanding on existing assets as would simply expanding it as a HRT/PATH extension?

A rather high-frequency regional system could relieve a lot of capacity on the regional RRs -- in Jersey, at least.

Busy Bee Nov 8, 2018 3:11 PM

Staten Island needs rail with more capacity than what light rail can provide. It should have had a heavy rail connection decades ago, it's as simple as that.

k1052 Nov 8, 2018 4:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee (Post 8372800)
Staten Island needs rail with more capacity than what light rail can provide. It should have had a heavy rail connection decades ago, it's as simple as that.

You could tunnel the 1 train to SIR for about 1/3rd the cost of the Phase 1 SAS.

BrownTown Nov 8, 2018 4:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8372868)
You could tunnel the 1 train to SIR for about 1/3rd the cost of the Phase 1 SAS.

LOL, no way dude. You'd be lucky to get the 1 to Staten Island for under 25 Billion. Nobody would ever even attempt such a build though.

k1052 Nov 8, 2018 4:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrownTown (Post 8372910)
LOL, no way dude. You'd be lucky to get the 1 to Staten Island for under 25 Billion. Nobody would ever even attempt such a build though.

Under current MTA planning and contracting I'd say $7B. If we simply did what the euros do maybe $2B.

Busy Bee Nov 8, 2018 4:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8372868)
You could tunnel the 1 train to SIR for about 1/3rd the cost of the Phase 1 SAS.

Yeah sorry man but both the benefit and the financial premise are worlds away from reality on that one. I want to see the 1 train extended to Red Hook via Gov Island like everyone else, and that is its' only logical extension.

Subway/heavy rail connection(s) to Staten Island should come in the form of a Subway connection to the Bay Ridge Line, and/or a TriboroRX/PATH connection from 65th St in Brooklyn. A via New Jersey PATH route is also extremely sensible and see my earlier post regarding the potential of a expanded-TriboroRX based scheme with a Manhattan-EWR-Staten Island-Brooklyn-(JFK)-Queens-Bronx(Port Morris Branch to as far as Fordham Rd & Co-Op City legs) belt line route operated by either PATH(because of airport connectivity) or MTA terminating at EWR w/ PATH continuing to Hoboken and Manhattan.

BrownTown Nov 9, 2018 9:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k1052 (Post 8372926)
Under current MTA planning and contracting I'd say $7B. If we simply did what the euros do maybe $2B.

It's 5 miles of water between Staten Island and Manhattan. That's over 5x the width of the Hudson which we are expecting will need a 30 Billion dollar project to get under. Indeed it's 2x as long as the entire length of the tunnel including the parts in NJ and Manhattan.

I would seriously question if NYC even has the ability to build such a tunnel any more at ANY cost.

k1052 Nov 9, 2018 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrownTown (Post 8374531)
It's 5 miles of water between Staten Island and Manhattan. That's over 5x the width of the Hudson which we are expecting will need a 30 Billion dollar project to get under. Indeed it's 2x as long as the entire length of the tunnel including the parts in NJ and Manhattan.

I would seriously question if NYC even has the ability to build such a tunnel any more at ANY cost.

$30B cost for Gateway includes leveling a block of Midtown and building a hideously expensive multilayer station, plus a few other big ticket items.

Just bore from South Ferry to Brooklyn, run basically under the Gowanas Expressway to the army terminal and cross the 2 mile gap to St. George. No stations or anything, just tunnel/rail/power/life safety.

Busy Bee Nov 9, 2018 11:48 PM

What't the affinity for the 1 train to SI when running a split leg R to SI through a new tunnel (or the other ways I've mentioned) make significantly more logistical and fiscal sense?


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