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-   -   NEW YORK | Hudson Yards; 40 msf of development (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123575)

J. Will Jan 15, 2012 9:57 PM

The problem with building office towers along that strip is that there will no longer be a subway station at 10th/41st, so any towers near the north end of that strip would be a long walk from the subway, just as the new towers in the vicinity of 10th-11th and 42nd Street will continue to be a long walk from the subway.

scalziand Jan 15, 2012 10:10 PM

^That's a good point, although it doesn't seem to have stopped construction so far. Might be a different case for the office towers, since they will have a lot more people in them.

NYguy Jan 16, 2012 12:11 AM

^ It would basically be a mirror of the office towers planned along that strip anyway, so I don't think it would be a huge problem.

Also, that 42nd St station would have been further away than the coming 34th street station.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYguy (Post 3816965)


J. Will Jan 16, 2012 6:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scalziand (Post 5551321)
^That's a good point, although it doesn't seem to have stopped construction so far. Might be a different case for the office towers, since they will have a lot more people in them.

It's much more important for office towers to be within short walking distance of mass transit than it is for residential towers. And even for residential towers, all those completed towers in the area of 42nd Street west of 10th Avenue were planned when it was thought there was going to be a subway stop there.

Rey88 Jan 16, 2012 5:59 PM

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3378/hkmod2.jpg

I have a question, but it is possible to built a tower like Fordham Spire or 432 Park Avenue on the Javits site?

http://www.eikongraphia.com/wordpres...tent/spire.gif
or
http://elitedaily.com/elite/wp-conte...lite_daily.jpg

Eidolon Jan 17, 2012 4:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey88 (Post 5552160)
I have a question, but it is possible to built a tower like Fordham Spire or 432 Park Avenue on the Javits site?

Yes, I believe that even a 2000 footer is possible on the Javits Site.

Roadcruiser1 Jan 17, 2012 5:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey88 (Post 5552160)
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3378/hkmod2.jpg

I have a question, but it is possible to built a tower like Fordham Spire or 432 Park Avenue on the Javits site?

http://www.eikongraphia.com/wordpres...tent/spire.gif
or
http://elitedaily.com/elite/wp-conte...lite_daily.jpg

There is probably enough room to put back the entire original before 9/11 World Trade Center at the Hudson Yards.

NYguy Jan 17, 2012 7:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey88 (Post 5552160)
I have a question, but it is possible to built a tower like Fordham Spire or 432 Park Avenue on the Javits site?

Keep in mind that they have yet to come up with a development plan for the javits site. It's still in the early stages.



http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...wbRCczuVfZwyGL

State $463M face lift on Javits Ctr. corpse

http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2012...s--300x300.jpg

By JOSH MARGOLIN
January 16, 2012

Quote:

The massive $463 million overhaul of the Javits Center will wrap up just in time — for Gov. Cuomo to tear it down. The three-year expansion and renovation will go on — and will be completed by October 2013 — even though Cuomo said in his State of the State speech that he wants the building leveled.

Some experts said it was wasteful to press on with the plans when Cuomo may be able to erect a newer, bigger convention center in 10 years. But the center’s operators strongly defended the project, saying it will protect the business the Javits Center already has in the pipeline.

“This is essential work,” said Austin Shafran, spokesman for the Empire State Development Corp., which controls the center. “Finishing this work will allow Javits to hold on to the business it has and be an acceptable facility while it still stands.”

But it may not be standing for long. Cuomo said his vision for a medium-sized convention center on the far West Side does not include the 18-acre center.

“Convention centers are important generators of economic activity,” Cuomo said in Albany Jan. 4. But Javits “is obsolete and not large enough to be a top-tier competitor” for convention business, he said. Instead, Cuomo is looking to build the largest convention center in the country in his native Queens, while transforming the Javits land into a mixed community of hotels, residential buildings, museums and shops à la Battery Park City. Mayor Bloomberg has also backed Cuomo’s plan for the center, though his office declined to say anything more about the concept last week.

The ongoing work at Javits includes major structural improvements to the roof, improvements that make the building more environmentally sound and a 110,000-foot expansion at the top end of the center, called Javits North.

And even with all that, the facility — which replaced the now-razed New York Coliseum near Columbus Circle — will remain a poor alternative for convention planners when they compare it to other sites around the country.

scalziand Jan 17, 2012 9:28 PM

I should have mentioned this earlier, in my proposed plan, the tallest building is 1200ft, so that should give a sense of scale. This is about the same height as the tallest towers currently proposed on the west side. They are also just massing models-more flashy designs would be entirely welcome.

Rey88 Jan 17, 2012 9:34 PM

Old proposals for a convention center in New York

Proposals for a convention center to replace the New York Coliseum date to 1962, only six years after the Coliseum was completed.

West Midtown development scheme. The proposed convention center is the semi-circular building extending into the river.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...st_midtown.jpg

44th Street Convention Center.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...4th_Street.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_K...vention_Center

KVNBKLYN Jan 18, 2012 3:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey88 (Post 5553573)

That's downright pornographic.

Crawford Jan 18, 2012 5:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey88 (Post 5552160)
I have a question, but it is possible to built a tower like Fordham Spire or 432 Park Avenue on the Javits site?

You could put 20 Fordham Spires or 432 Park Avenues on the Javits site.

Javits is everything from 34th to 41st streets, from 11th Avenue to the Hudson River.

That's seven full blocks, and they're the very long Westside blocks. You could have 3 or 4 towers on each of those blocks, with lots of space left over for parkland and the like.

uaarkson Jan 23, 2012 7:40 PM

To hell with the Javits center. I feel bad for Mr. Fowle, but seriously.

Split up the block, build a supertall, whatever. That land is way too valuable.

NYguy Jan 23, 2012 9:56 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/23/ar...er=rss&emc=rss

Let’s Raze Javits Center (but First Finish Renovations)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...ticleLarge.jpg
A $390 million renovation is under way at the Javits Center on the west side of Manhattan.

By ROBIN POGREBIN
January 22, 2012

Quote:


Part of architecture’s appeal, at least to architects, is posterity: the notion that what they design will last. So it came as something of a shock to the architect Bruce S. Fowle this month when he learned that a building he was renovating is already on death row.

“The waste of creative energy, money and material that would result in its being torn down is painful to think about,” Mr. Fowle said during a walk through the center last week. “When you’re worrying about every detail — trying to do the best you can to make something that represents the city — it’s like having the rug pulled out from under you.”

Mr. Cuomo proposes replacing the Javits Center with private redevelopment that would include housing, hotels and museums, and selling or leasing the state-owned land to developers.

The Javits Center had been considered ripe for renovation almost since it opened in 1986 because it was too small for large trade shows and conventions, and many considered the dark-glass behemoth as an eyesore blocking views of the Hudson River.

“It’s just such an awful building that the only reason to keep it would be as a monument to stupidity,” said Mark Wigley, the dean of Columbia University’s Graduate School of Architecture, Planning and Preservation.

“When we finish our work it’s going to be a fantastic facility,” said Michael Damore, an executive managing director at Epstein. “Nothing can be done in Queens for a long time.” The state says these efforts have not been wasted, that they will be an important stopgap measure pending completion of a convention space in Queens.


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...ts-2-popup.jpg



http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...ts-1-popup.jpg

jd3189 Jan 23, 2012 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uaarkson (Post 5560917)
To hell with the Javits center. I feel bad for Mr. Fowle, but seriously.

Split up the block, build a supertall, whatever. That land is way too valuable.

At least build a more impressive convention center in its place.

KVNBKLYN Jan 24, 2012 4:02 AM

I posted this in the Aqueduct casino thread, but it's probably more appropriate here:

If you read the transcript of Cuomo's state of the state address, it actually does not call for the complete demolition of the Javits Center, necessarily. He actually proposes making a smaller convention center out of the Javits or on another site on the west side.

Quote:

We can then master plan the 18-acre Jacob Javits
Convention Center site as a mixed-use facility to revitalize
New York City’s West Side. We will follow the highly
successful Battery Park City model, which has resulted in
housing, hotels, museums, and over 10 million square feet
of Class A office space. As part of the redevelopment, we
will explore options for serving the needs of smaller and
medium sized trade shows at the Javits site or elsewhere on
the West Side of Manhattan.
http://www.governor.ny.gov/assets/do...-York-Book.pdf

That elsewhere he's referring to is probably the west side of the Farley post office building, which has been looked at to serve as a smaller event space, but would need significant fire and life safety upgrades first.

Focusing on having smaller venues in space constrained Manhattan seems like a good plan. I would imagine there's more of a market for this scale of event but not enough venues. Look at the difficulty Fashion Week had when they were looking for a new spot. The only time I ever go to the Javits is for the International Contemporary Furniture Fair, and it takes up maybe a quarter of the exhibition space. The boat shows can go to Queens.

And if they kept part of the Javits Center, it could be the south end that has the glass entry pavilion, the only architecturally interesting part of the building (it's actually quite beautiful on the inside). It's also the side closest to the subway and the part of the building they're likely spending the most on in the current renovation, so maybe that half billion dollars won't go completely to waste.

Inkoumori Jan 24, 2012 6:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uaarkson (Post 5560917)
To hell with the Javits center. I feel bad for Mr. Fowle, but seriously.

Split up the block, build a supertall, whatever. That land is way too valuable.

I don't believe this should or will be an "all in or all out" plan. I believe the Javits performs a valuable service to Manhattan and close-in Bkln/Qns subway hoods. And all the millions who work in the city but live in the suburbs. I also think that a convention in a city should showcase that city. The Javits is actually gorgeous inside the reception hall and has a lot of potential on the river side. It need not be enlarged, it's big enough. Freed designed it under the tutelage of I.M. Pei.

http://www.cpiengineering.com/images/project/Javits.png
cpiengineering

I would have to think twice about going to the auto show all the way out there in Ozone Park. I've ridden the A train dozens of times to Aqueduct, JFK and the Rockaways, it's a long, slow haul. The expressways in the boroughs leading there are invariably clogged while still being aggressive.

But it is adjacent to JFK, not too far from LGA and has clean access to ISP, so I see the logic. I think it can work, but I also believe it would be a mistake to demolish the Javits. They both could stand alone. Two convention centers catering to different types of conventions. I would be very sad to see the Javits go.

And that's my point.

NYguy Jan 24, 2012 3:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivymike (Post 5561895)
I also believe it would be a mistake to demolish the Javits. They both could stand alone. Two convention centers catering to different types of conventions. I would be very sad to see the Javits go.

And that's my point.

There's no way that hulk is going to stand there, taking up a huge chunk of valuable Manhattan real estate with a more practical and open convention center elsewhere in the City. The Javits may be too small to be a major convention center, but it's too large to be anything else. It could probably work as an indoor amusement park. But the City is pushing for office/residential development of the west side. A large, indoor amusement park won't do.

aquablue Jan 24, 2012 4:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivymike (Post 5561895)
I don't believe this should or will be an "all in or all out" plan. I believe the Javits performs a valuable service to Manhattan and close-in Bkln/Qns subway hoods. And all the millions who work in the city but live in the suburbs. I also think that a convention in a city should showcase that city. The Javits is actually gorgeous inside the reception hall and has a lot of potential on the river side. It need not be enlarged, it's big enough. Freed designed it under the tutelage of I.M. Pei.

http://www.cpiengineering.com/images/project/Javits.png
cpiengineering

I would have to think twice about going to the auto show all the way out there in Ozone Park. I've ridden the A train dozens of times to Aqueduct, JFK and the Rockaways, it's a long, slow haul. The expressways in the boroughs leading there are invariably clogged while still being aggressive.

But it is adjacent to JFK, not too far from LGA and has clean access to ISP, so I see the logic. I think it can work, but I also believe it would be a mistake to demolish the Javits. They both could stand alone. Two convention centers catering to different types of conventions. I would be very sad to see the Javits go.

And that's my point.

Hopefully, they will extend the LIRR to the new convention center, then it would be a quick ride from manhattan. Unless they build some kind of super express A train or another line, I don't see how a subway link alone like the current service would suffice.

As we discussed, I'm sure they are planning to implement fast service from Manhattan and the airport, better than the current A train option anyway. Either they speed the subway service up or they open the old rail line. I'd also be shocked if they were to neglect airport access from the terminal given the location. If they rely on the current A train, the whole thing could be a fiasco of epic proportions. I'm sure they'll realize that once it's built and something will be done.

Regarding demolishing the old convention center, I don't understand why they wouldn't rezone the area for massive buildings...the only place we could see a 600m building in manhattan. Yet it appears they are going to replicate battery park city, I mean, WTF? Battery park city scale is the best they are aiming for with the last prime site in the city? Doesn't sound like a smart plan for the future. I was hoping for at least one new landmark tower for NYC that could elevate NYC's skyline in height. Is it really a problem to zone the area unlimited with mixed use? Why restrict the size on these plots near the river to mid-rise residential? Not very ambitious.

Whatever they do, they should build some kind of connecting tunnel to a subway station.

yankeesfan1000 Jan 25, 2012 12:18 AM

Right, they've said they want something like BPC but nothing regarding height, or density has been discussed, so before we say this project lacks vision or ambition lets wait for that, (keep in mind they're tearing down a nearly 1,000,000 square foot convention center to build a whole new neighborhood, inside of what will be a whole new neighborhood). If this project has anything it's ambition.

Plus, this is just part of the whole far west side redevelopment. So, even if we do get a BPC in terms of height, a handful of 500+ footers with smaller hotels and residential buildings, this new BPC could very well serve the same purpose as the existing one downtown, which is a complimentary aspect of the skyline, a sort of escalator to much larger buildings behind them where lot after lot is zoned for giant high rises.


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