^gza,
I actually think all 3 extensions should be built....(even yellow and orange to Old Orchard and Ford City respectively....people should think about using transit for shopping instead of instinctively reaching for the car keys).

But I'm aware of the different demographics between the 30-40-50s and the hundreds. I lived on the southside for 18 years, and have been extensively in most of the neighborhoods therein, including Pullman, Eastside, Beverly, Morgan Park, Hegewisch, and most of the Lakeshore (Hyde Park, Kenwood, Woodlawn, Oakwood, etc.). Of course that experience doesnt make me an "authority" on the subject, but I want to put it out there I'm not making unfounded generalizations.

Also for reference the Howard red line north of Wilson (but not including Wilson) has over 35,000 daily boardings over a length of 3.75 miles, versus 48,000 for the entire Dan Ryan branch over a length of 9 miles. Again I bring this up just to consider the R-O-I merits of the red line extension.

Of course, there arent any hard ridership estimates for the Circle Line; its hard to gauge. Aside from the Circle line itself, how will it impact and increase ridership on each of the lines it connects to? Intuitively, it would increase ridership systemwide significantly, especially in conjunction with additional high-density, mixed use development in the area it serves. but I havent seen any ridership predictions, so we can't know for sure.

In the meantime, let's agree that its worth the time and money to be exploring everything to do with both projects, which thus far CTA is doing :)

^ and I agree, most people will not make 2 transfers to reach their destination, but I think most people would be happy to make 1 transfer especially if it is a matter of crossing a platform. The options the Circle Line opens up in terms of where 1 transfer can get you in a short amount of time are phenomenal, consider the circle line not only serves many destinations, but if it is developed as a high-density origin of trips, people located along the circle line could quickly get to the proper "spoke" of the CTA system to get to their desired destination, rather than backtracking all the way to the loop as they mostly do now.

Agreed :cheers:

But let me say that my Wilson-to-Howard scenario wasn't quite meant to be a parallel analogy. It was meant to illustrate that having lots of cars in a community is not going to eliminate the need for public transit--especially with gas and downtown parking both unapologetic ripoffs now. Of course the stretch up there I speak of will have higher ridership--they're currently much denser areas with more people with reason to head downtown or somewhere. Helps tremendously that there are stops every two blocks as well. But while there are odds to overcome, these South Side communities I speak of are not "immune" (for lack of a better word) to densification in the future. Nor the need to be less car-reliant now. Can't see where a well-placed L route would be a detriment to that or anywhere else, is all I've been trying to say.

I too am much in favor of the Orange Line to Ford City. I wish it was there all along. I was in high school when it first opened, and I made many a trip from Whitney Young to Ford City via the Orange Line after school. I also used it when I was working in Lincoln Park and the Loop.

But I absolutely hated taking the bus from the airport terminal to the Ford City area, because the service was horrendous. Say what I want about the routes east of the Ryan, but that #54B Cicero might be the worst route I ever personally used with any sort of regularity. More likely than not I took one of the Pace routes that went that way; they seemed to run somewhat better. The L straight down to the mall would have saved me much much stress.

A Yellow Line extention has no bearing on me, but if it benefits you and your type up there then go for it.

To me the only dumb idea is stretching the Blue Line all the way out to Schaumburg. And that's because, as I've made so over-abundantly clear--too many areas in Chicago city limits are lacking L service to be giving the rich NW Cook 'burbanites some at this juncture.

I think the Red Line extension should be built someday, but again I make the point of the real mission of the CTA. Light rail transit shouldN'T exist for the purpose of grabbing people from as far away as possible and plopping them downtown. We have the heavy Metra commuter rail for that. The role of light rail transit in a city should be to circulate the population. If you've ever visit Paris (perhaps you already have) you will be amazed at the fact that you can travel from literally anywhere to literally anywhere via the Metro. This is what we want to acheive in Chicago. Inasmuch as the 90's and 100's are in sort of no man's land in that respect (not exactly downtown, not exactly Naperville), it's a interesting project.

As far as the Old Orchard, Schaumburg and Ford City projects are concerned, I have three words: Take the bus.

Hmm, some interesting discussion on this page.

My personal view, after thinking about it a bit, is that the circle line would be a nice addition, to a degree.

I've lived on the northside, in the NW burbs, and now in the West Loop.

On the northside, the best option the CTA has in terms of gaining riders, is to extend the Brown Line from Kimball to the Blue at Jefferson Park. It would pay itself off just in the Cubs traffic from the NW burbs alone. I knew a lot of people that would drive in for games and were longing for an easier way. The Park and Ride at Cumberland and then a bus connection at Irving Park just doesn't cut it for these people. An L transfer would do it.

The added benefit is easier access to O'Hare for northside residents.


For me in the West Loop, simply adding that 18th/Blue Island/Ashland connecter would give quicker and easier access to Midway.

And that's it for the north and west. I'll leave the southside stuff to someone who knows more about those needs.

How about expanding all the Metra routes within 15 miles of the city to near metro frequencies, at lease 6 trains an hour for the 1st 10 to 15 stops from the centre. Longer distance commuter trains would be express near centre.

All it would take is a broad political consensus to develop amongst all principal groups in the city to fund a long term investment plan in public transport (irony). This could be funded incrementally with the most congested tracks expanded 1st. I know that does require a bit of wishful thinking, but such a plan would benefit a larger area and therefore hopefully get more politcial buy in from suburban councils.

:previous: I can dig it. :iagree: . I too find this neccesary and look forward to the day it comes. All it's gonna do is make the world's greatest little burg that much better. It's just about priorities and the differing ones. And the perspectives that create them. I see y'all's; I'm in the North Side far too much for many reasons and all times to NOT see your perspective--and agree in more regards than you may think. And downtown? Not even an issue there.

See mine. And oshkeoto's and Segun from up the North way.

And we take things from there...


THIS, on the other hand, borders on hilarity. I understand the application of relativity, but that's a bit much. It's an altogether different beast than what goes on the North Side--caused my many different factors that favored the North eventually becoming one of the showplaces (with downtown) of the city to the world and SSP. But it's a beast nevertheless. Never a pussy. It's got a plethora of issues. Alot. But the Chi would be in serious trouble if this was a wholly dead-at-best, screwed-up-at worst side of town--20s to Hundereds. Tho I'm inclided to interpret that you see it as holding the city down as is.

It's significantly less dense even in the more developed areas than the North Side communities we speak of becuase it is far more single-family and lo-rise flat residential. But to say it doesn't merit L service due to that is to say that the Southwest Side doesn't merit the Orange Line (the last to open, significantly). Or that if O'Hare wasn't where it is that the Northwest side wouldn't fit the criteria for the Blue Line.

Why I compromised on the Red Line going all the way to 130th like it deserves, is because it indeed will route through the de-industrializing(-ed) South Deering and Pullman on its way to Hegewisch. But whose to say that these places won't one day densify? Doesn't a densification anywhere in city limits help the city in some way? And aside from there, we have a ways to go based on Our Town's current growth pattern til people are going to have to figuratively live on top of each other block-by-block like the New-New York of Futurama. May one day happen tho. But lets not act like this great big section of town looks the same as when the city annexed it in 1889 (exaggeration for effect). It takes exploration to understand that, is all--even if it doesn't change your perspective. But just driving thru ain't gonna do it.

What you're saying at best is "Wait til it happens, if it happens." I understand that. All I can do is tell you why that shouldn't be. But Metra and the way Metra does its thing (albeit well within those parameters) shouldnt have to be what's to be lived with for someone who is paying the cost of living anywhere in city limits over the admittedly cheaper-in-many-ways burbs (including $75/yr for a city sticker for his/her car).

And let's not forget Ford City sends some of its business-related taxes to LaSalle St...

That's a rational plan. But I can tell you're not familiar with how politics work here regionally ;) . But indeed if it could work like that: A) I wouldn't *necessarily* be as vocal on my position in the discussion; and B)University of Chicago students and Hyde Park area residents, who tend to rather not go so deep into the ghetto to get to the Red and Green Lines, might not be so vocal about changing one of the commuter lines that runs right through the area into a rapid-transit route.

The Regional Transportation Authority is too much a mess so that to even consider that is proposterous to some within it, I'd theorize.

EDIT: Silly me I forgot to mention the msot important factor. Only a couple Metra routes have that many in-city stops. Granted they're in the area of the city we're having this discussion on. But there are also many stops on these routes in the mnay suburbs, who would object to even that concept--they're gonna want more frequent service, and then the heavily suburban-oriented lines that are the majority of the system will want some, and the different agencies under the umbrella and their respective constituencies are gonna bitch about the available loose change the governments provide for these things, and so on, and so forth...

So it would be these parts of the city that would have to do the political heavy-lifting--and that's a helluva lotta weight.

So it's a fine idea, just not politically do-able currently.

I can see that being quite popular. They're only, like a mile apart. Would help encourage more train use and ameliorate the parking and traffic controversies in Wrigleyville. I don't generally hear good things about how the Cubbies are running that shuttle from DeVry. And as far as the CTA is concerned, as you state the Park and Ride is way out at Cumberland, and I'm sure the Addison bus connection is a pain in the arse.

What you state is further north than the proposal on the site rgolch referred to. They instead call for putting a new ring line going south from there in Albany Park. But, what's wrong with adding a short due-west stretch? And shit, who wouldn't wanna get to the airport easier via L?

I'm late, but anyways
here's 115th and Michigan
http://www.streetsandsoul.com/roundup/roundup296.jpg

and Paradox21 was with me, and he's way more skilled at moving photos, so here are his:
http://www.streetsandsoul.com/parado...t-2005-129.jpg
http://www.streetsandsoul.com/parado...t-2005-132.jpg
http://www.streetsandsoul.com/parado...t-2005-133.jpg
http://www.streetsandsoul.com/parado...t-2005-134.jpg
http://www.streetsandsoul.com/parado...t-2005-135.jpg
http://www.streetsandsoul.com/parado...t-2005-136.jpg
http://www.streetsandsoul.com/parado...t-2005-137.jpg

Gza,

Maybe you misunderstood me. What I meant by no man's land was it wasn't far enough away to make me boil with fury at the thought of extending el service there, but not close enough to downtown to be a circulation priority. I was only talking distance, not density.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I realize that it really just the Old Orchard and Schaumburg projects that piss me off.

:previous: My apologies. I did. And I see now what you mean. Hey that's cool I can accept indifference. It's hostility that I have to react to.

Goonsta, comin thru with the pics. Good lookin' out. That's really what I've been trying to say, just in like a thousand words per picture. Its not Oak and Michigan, but damn not many other places in the city are.

^ Yeah nice pics. Make a good case for Red Line service to 115th/Michigan, eh? The city should spend a few bucks and "streetscape" that bitch....repave the street, get some flowerboxes, decorative light poles, pretty it up. The alderman should get busy on that...

gza,
"A Yellow Line extention has no bearing on me, but if it benefits you and your type up there then go for it. "
dude, what?

Ignoring that, i think the first priority is a yellow line stop at oakton (where there is actual population and employment density), then potentially park n ride service at old orchard with trains running directly through to downtown. I think the Yellow -extension- is the least important of these projects, but the infill at Oakton is very important to help justify the continued existence of the yellow line. I think an Old Orchard extension -could- be worthwhile because of its potentially tiny cost, since the right-of-way is entirely preserved, and I believe there would be only one required grade seperation at Golf Road. the park n ride lot, well youve got all that Old Orchard parking.

I still think Circle is the priority of the bunch, but with a little luck and just a little cooperation from the state legislature to match the federal funds, I bet we could see serious progress on not only the Circle, but also the Red extenson. The only other transit projects that can compete in the country are things like the 2nd ave subway in manhattan (no-brainer) or the Wilshire subway in LA (also no-brainer).

Right. It also comes down to how one views the purpose of public transit. Personally I see it as a vital means to reach the desired end of sustainable, vibrant, dense, interesting, urban development. Like I described in a previous post, I think the Red extension serves another important purpose of providing low-cost environmentally friendly travel options in a travel-heavy area, but I don't think it directly serves my above stated goal of core development, which is why I don't rate it as high as the Circle.

Of course, what is probably clear, is that gza stands to benefit directly from a red line extension, and I stand to benefit directly from the Circle Line :) now I just need to convince him that he and so many others would benefit from the Circle too!

Yeah I certainly should have worded that better; it was much too informal. Sorry bout that cuz I didn't mean anything malicious by it. I just meant, you and those who would also benefit from a potential Skokie lengthening, as that was my assumption then.

But as you clarify your position it looks like you wouldn't even have much (or any) use for it yourself, but are instead speaking for others who may benefit. If that's the case, then I suggest you let that happen when they get around to it, or IF they do so, or even decide it's worthy to get on. To quote McCartney, I "wisper words of wisdom: Let it be." We've already got enough contrroversy on what we're gonna do with the stuff inside the city. I get you about trying to find a way to let Skokie stay online and useful tho. But again it doesn't make me any difference what they ever do with the Swift. In fact, here's where Norsider's opposition is fine by me. And it seems also to be a more appropriate case study for your concerns about potential ridership justifying necessity. I.e. it's not only a question of, are the riders there for a longer Yellow Line(?), but also of, would many even miss it if it goes offline? To be honest I'm rather uninformed on the subject, as I don't go out that way (I seldom leave city limits on any side of town). But--based on my understanding that Swift ridership is very light and my knowledge that service is very infrequent--it seems to me the answer to both is "no."

...

But much as you may be speaking for others, I am also. I wouldn't use a Red Line south of 95th very often becuase my life and associated L-riding patterns take me north. I DO have use for it tho cuz I got family and other relevant things down there and on occasion I patronize the shopping area 'round Michigan that we speak of (which actually looks that way, generally speaking, from 103rd on down) as well as the lesser commericalized strips of the Halsted drag down there--there's sum good shit for cheap there especially on Michigan. But when I'm going down there now I'd MUCH rather drive--in fact unless my piece-of-shit car (anyone ever hear the Adam Sandler song of that name?) is acting up, I won't go there UNLESS I'm driving.

But I mainly speak for a larger-than-y'all-think constituency (which makes someone who shuns the culture of public office sound like a public official), that is pissed about the bus rides (like the #34 and #119 that run past the scene of Segun's pics--both shit routes) way up to and way down from 95th. It can be an excruciating trip; I can't stress that enough.

If by that you mean, being an important and heavily-used route that will help fund further improvements and enhancements that we all agree are necessary citywide, then I been convinced since 2002, man.

But if you mean, giving me a better way from point A to point B based on where I go in town--that would make my L-riding life complete--so much so that I'm itching for it to come online? Nah I'm not feelin' it. But again I'm just speaking for me and mine, is all. Just as you are.

I'm appreciating this discussion both in its depth and health (i.e. it's been contentious but hasn't come close to deteriorating, tho it's had a fair amount of misconception and misinterpretation). Since I kept it in the house and and clear-headed this Friday nite I'm all about adding to it now. And I'm down with keeping it going if y'all are. But I don't think our beliefs are (or at least SHOULD be) as incompatible as they may seem. Certainly we can disagree on things and have legit reasons on why that is but it seems like we all want the same thing to manifest eventually--whether we recognize that or not.

Full article here:
http://media.www.chicagoflame.com/me...epublisher.com

Station construction to create track for signal project
Kristine C. Ostil
Issue date: 5/1/06

blah blah blah

This project bugs me. People like to rave about how great automatic train control is, but its SLOW. The blue line is the only line with the old simple block signalling, and it moves the fastest of the lines (i.e. red and brown get slow and stop signals all the time). Hopefully the technology has improved and the new signal system won't slow down operations on the blue line.

"The signaling project is going fantastic and everything is right on schedule...the project started about two weeks ago and is a three year job," said the foreman.

:koko:

I'm sure it's factual, but I hope he made that statement toungue-in-cheek.

Anyone planning on attending? When?

I'll hopefully make it Wednesday night.