Very interesting post about the Lugo House, gsj! One thing that really puzzles me, though, is in this illustration above, an area just north of the Plaza Church is designated as the "Original Plaza." What's the story there? I'm not familiar with the existence of a Plaza that predates the one we all know east of the Plaza Church.

-Scott

I was just reading that the Lugo house was the first location for the predecessor to Loyola Marymount University.

And then there's this:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_zXN_GwdMYMo/TT...YG7Rg~~_12.jpgebay.com

Actually, this picture is of the matchbook reproduced as an icebox magnet, available on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=160467571753


According to the invaluable site http://www.latimemachines.com/new_page_41.htm, at some point, Jerry's Joynt seems to have moved to San Vicente and Wilshire, but I can't find any more information about that, even in city directories.

Thanks for posting that Jade Room postcard and matchbook GaylordWilshire.
I am sure you noticed the small text on the postcard that says the carved art behind the bar is 3600 years old. Now that's really impressive!





Below: I don't believe this photo of old Chinatown has been posted before. It is dated 1939.


http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2...withsigns1.jpg
usc digital archive

Can anyone pinpoint this location?

looking east on marchessault street across alameda. today,we would be looking directly at union station

http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics30/00034944.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics30/00034944.jpg

the same view in 1920

http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics23/00031191.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics23/00031191.jpg

a 1933 image looking north east on alameda at the intersection of marchessault street

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...CHS-35161?v=hr
Source: USC Digital Archive http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...CHS-35161?v=hr

^^^Thank you gsjansen.
I had completely forgotten about Marchessault Street. I appreciate your help.

whoever presented the proposed plan, must have been hopped up on a josh house specialty :P

the 1849 ord map clearly shows that the plaza has always been where it is today.....fer goodness sakes, the whole Fahrvergnugen city is laid out based on the plaza's central location!

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets.../CHS-6320?v=hr
Source: USC Digital Archive http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets.../CHS-6320?v=hr

none-the-lee, there is an interesting sentence in the wikipedia article on the plaza that points to a page on the los angeles department of public works web site that sayz.......................

The original pueblo was built to the southeast of the current plaza along the Los Angeles River. In 1815, a flood washed away the original pueblo, and it was rebuilt farther from the river at the location of the current plaza.

hmmmmmm, ok, i'll buy that, but the location of the supposed original plaza shown on the proposed plan certainly is not on the banks of the los angeles river, south and east of the current plaza.......but is shown north and west of the current plaza.......maybe they were trying to down play the importance of the plaza, so that it left open the door to it's possible destruction and removal at some future date.

why shouldn't we build a civic center monstrosity here?, why this isn't even the original site of the plaza, it's actually over there........................

Here is a view of old Chinatown in 1871.

This is the junction of Los Angeles Street, Arcadia Street and Aliso Street.
Extreme right is "calle de los negros".

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/254...atown1871s.jpg
usc digital archive

above: The stagecoach in the foreground is owned by the Lafayette Hotel.
The Lafayette Hotel was the second hotel in Los Angeles. The first hotel was the Bella Union (see below).




below: Here is the first hotel in Los Angeles, the Bella Union in 1865.



http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/1...thotelinla.jpg
usc digital archive







below: This is the Bella Union Hotel a few years later in 1871.


http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/461...aunion1871.jpg
usc digital archive






below: Around 1876 the Bella Union became the St. Charles Hotel.


http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2...comesstcha.jpg
usc digital archive

above: Notice the very unique "Rifle and Pistol Shooting" sign.

by 1939, the bella union was becoming a tad rough.......

http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics33/00066057.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics33/00066057.jpg

i find it somewhat irksome that there are quite a few of these california historical landmark plaques placed around town, on, (or as the case may be, near :rolleyes: ), the site of where the historical landmark that is being honored no longer exists..............

http://jpg1.lapl.org/spnb01/00007114.jpg

sheeeeeesh..............

Hmmm. Now that I really look closely at the Ord map, it looks to me like the Plaza may have originally been west of Main Street after all.

The red arrow on the Ord map points to Wine St. (today's Olvera Street). The present Plaza is located at Wine/Olvera's southern terminus. But that's not where the word "Plaza" is on the Ord map. It's clearly on the other side of Main Street. Where the Plaza is now is a blank space on the Ord map.

https://otters.net/img/lanoir/CHS-6320_mod.jpg
USC Digital Archive http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets.../CHS-6320?v=hr


Here's an 1873 map of old Los Angeles. Look above and to the right of the Old Plaza Church. It says "Church Plaza." And that just happens to be the exact spot that the word "Plaza" appears on the Ord Map.

https://otters.net/img/lanoir/ct001794.jpg
Library Of Congress http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.gmd/g4364l.ct001794


Granted, that's not the same location as the "Original Plaza" in the 1950 plan map. Clearly, that was intended to be a reconstruction of some sort. But it seems to me now that there is some credible historical basis for the existence of a much older Plaza on the west side of Calle Principal.

-Scott

the version of the ORD map that i had linked to, from the USC Digital Archive site, is actually an altered version of the original map. (the 1st indication of this, is that the streets are labeled with current names, such as broadway instead of fort street, and bunker hill being labled as such.....hell in 1849, Prudent Beaudry hadn't even settled in to town yet, and the centennial of the boston battle which the hill is named for wouldn't happen for another 26 years!)

a proper representation of the ORD map is here

http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics36/00067714.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics36/00067714.jpg

without the added verbiage, the compass center seems to be placed at the front door of La Placita Church,which fronts onto the plaza.

i'm not buying any of what the 1950 proposed plan is selling quite yet ;)

My contribution
 

Intro: Hello everybody.
Since I discovered this Forum, I have been an enthusiast follower of all your work, and I have learned many things about this city, Los Angeles, which I love so much.

Thanks to you folks, and thanks to all LA lovers of its history, I have been able of seeing Los Angeles changing and growing up from 'El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora, la Reina de Los Ángeles, to the present day. In addition I must admit that all of your work has opened my appetite to create my own thread in a spanish forum like this one. (With Moderator's permission, here's the link: http://www.urbanity.es/foro/urbanism...y-cristal.html)

I tried to be a good student and I started my learning about Los Angeles with your help, and among others, with LAPL website and USC Digital Archives.
I never dared to post anything here since my english is not my natural born language, and I was very afraid of being severely criticized just for this simple reason.

But now all my fears are over and this is my first contribution. I hope you like it.

Now let's work.
I've always loved all this then and now pics. Do you remember the next following pictures?

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2...4thstreetf.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us



http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9...fbuildings.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I bet you do, because they have been already reposted on another post. The first one shows 4th street from Hill street looking west, and the second one shows almost the same corner in Downtown, both in 1939.
Well, if we put them all together, we get a very good panoramic of 4th and Hill intersection, looking northwest:


http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/536...street1939.jpg

Et voilà. A busy street, right? Pedestrians walking along the street, and many business. Amazing, isn't it? The present show us a very different and ugly reality.


http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5...nd4thtoday.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us



It's the same corner, in 2009. It looks like an aseptic view because it seems to me that everything we saw in the picture above, has been cleaned, and vanished. Both California Plaza towers and the Angelus Plaza apartments are the symbols of an aseptic and dull redevelopment. Even the nostalgic Angel's Flight has changed.

Then and now: what do you think?

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2891/abcw.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Finally, here's another then and now excercise of the same area. Now is 4th street, looking east, corner of Olive:

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7523/pageda.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

First picture is from 1913, second is from 1923, and to come to an end, the last one show us a widened street with the base, on the left of the pic, of the Two California Plaza tower.
And that's all for now. More to come soon.

First of all, let me just say............WOW! :banana: that 1939 comp image of the corner of 4th and hill, absolutely breathtaking!

Now with that out of the way......welcome to the thread Sebisebster, i looked at your site, and it is very nice. there are a few photos that i had not seen before, particularly with the Arroyo Seco Parkway, and the destruction associated with the construction of the harbor freeway. once again, welcome , i know i look forward to more of your contributions!

The 1910 United States Post Office and Federal Building at Temple Square (right) is still my overall favorite edifice in historical Los Angeles. This particular image of it has been in the USC archives for a long time, but for as long as I've been checking this resource, the full image has been "404 Not Found" when I tried to view it. The link has recently been restored, but the image itself remains photo-reversed, so here it finally is as it should be seen!

https://otters.net/img/lanoir/CHS-14426_rot.jpg
USC Digital Library http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/search...hs-m30607.html

Notice anything missing? I do! As I am a biologist by trade, I'm curious about the obvious lack of urban avian fauna here - i.e. pigeons! They seem to be lacking in every historic photo of Los Angeles's public buildings that I've ever seen. I'm thinking they must have been actively poisoned in times past. That's the only explanation I can come up with for their conspicuous absence...

-Scott

Also wanted to say "welcome" to Sebisebster! I, too, like the thread you started on the other site. I'm glad you like my Then & Now of Bunker Hill, and the old Court House photo postcard, too! Always nice to see one's work appreciated. ^^

-Scott

you want pigeons? i'll give ya some pigeons!

Images of the Los Angeles Pigeon Farm near north Figueroa Street in what would become the Cypress Park area. The farm was partially destroyed in 1912 and then completely in 1913-1914. The pigeon farm was owned by John W. Johnson and supplied squab to local restaurants and hotels. It had been started in 1892.

http://jpg2.lapl.org/pics24/00046725.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg2.lapl.org/pics24/00046725.jpg

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets.../CHS-1496?v=hr
Source: USC Digital Archive http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets.../CHS-1496?v=hr

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets.../CHS-1772?v=hr
Source: USC Digital Archives http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets.../CHS-1772?v=hr

Elysian Park also had a pigeon farm. some images

looking across the pigeon farm towards lincoln heights

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets.../CHS-7087?v=hr
Source: USC Digital Archives http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets.../CHS-7087?v=hr

http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics29/00064458.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics29/00064458.jpg

and what about the wild sort of pigeon..................................

pigeon hunting in pasadena

http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics15/00027112.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics15/00027112.jpg

mmmm mmmmm good! pigeons on the grill in pasadena

http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics15/00027111.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics15/00027111.jpg

but your right scott, it's truely amazing how few pigeons show up in any of these historic photos. here's an image of a woman feeding pigeons in what one would think would be a prime roosting spot for them, pershing square.......yet there are only 6 of 'em flyin' rodents in the photo....and their being fed to boot!

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...190-003~4?v=hr
Source: USC Digital Archives http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/assets...190-003~4?v=hr

.

but then again, this is los angeles, a different kind of pigeon prevails.......

flower street and wilshire boulevard

http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics41/00070284.jpg
Source: LAPL http://jpg3.lapl.org/pics41/00070284.jpg

LOL! Holy crap! *ducks and covers* :D

Really, man, that's great! Love it! ^^

-Scott

with all my recent research on the areas along los angeles street and through old china town, i now can make sense of this image that i saw sometime ago on the calisphere site

http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb867nb5nt/FID5
Source: Calisphere http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb867nb5nt/FID5

the billboard is on los angeles street with calle de los negros behind the billboard. the building behind the billboard is the building that i had found out was the YMCA. The map that is on the billboard is oriented with los angeles street at the bottom, running between ferguson alley on the left, and aliso street on the right. the map continues upward to alameda street.

chinatown map (redux)

http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics30/00034944.jpg

when Union Station was built, only the north eastern portion of china town was cleared, leaving the south western portion intact........only to b destroyed 10 years later by the 101 freeway which will slam right through........well the very spot where this billboard stood.

i guess a lot of long time businesses of chinatown, weren't drinking the christine sterling kool-ade and picking up and relocating to her spanking new, (albeit fire prone) china city.