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-   -   Are LA's rail transit expansion plans enough to shift the city away from the car? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249564)

sopas ej Jan 6, 2022 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAN Man (Post 9495389)
The few electric busses that are on the road around here are cool. They're wrapped in a lime green color, nice and quiet.

Yeah, I've seen some electric buses in my area. They're nice and quiet indeed. So far, I've seen them on Foothill Transit, another transit agency in the San Gabriel Valley. I realize I live where a number of different transit agencies overlap.

homebucket Jan 6, 2022 11:26 PM

I bet buses in other cities can't 2 wheel.

https://kcet.brightspotcdn.com/dims4...ed-1994bus.jpg

pdxtex Jan 6, 2022 11:27 PM

Per the original question, umm no. But its good they are expanding the system. Other than Moscow, NYC and London, the world drives cars. Transit isn't a solution to gridlock, its just another civic bonus of a well organized city.

SAN Man Jan 6, 2022 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 9495538)
Yeah, I've seen some electric buses in my area. They're nice and quiet indeed. So far, I've seen them on Foothill Transit, another transit agency in the San Gabriel Valley. I realize I live where a number of different transit agencies overlap.

I think these are a game changer for the passengers' experience. I don't know how they pencil out in the long run for transit agencies, how much or more do they cost compared to a regular bus.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...8842768e_z.jpgMTS Electric Bus by So Cal Metro, on Flickr

jd3189 Jan 7, 2022 12:12 AM

Why not LA also focus on rebuilding its former streetcar system, which was arguably one of the largest ever built?


I believe that the streetcar system alone would be fierce competition to the freeway/road system and can be overlapped with the latter to ensure that public transportation is not simply for getting people to downtown and some far off suburb but also for connecting all the nodes of activity in LA county in a decentralized web.

Of course, continue on building subways and stuff, but a decentralized streetcar system would work wonders to be a worthy alternative to the automobile for a lot of Angelenos and SoCal residents. In fact, this is something all US cities, especially those in the Sunbelt, should be looking into.

accord1999 Jan 7, 2022 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAN Man (Post 9495580)
I think these are a game changer for the passengers' experience. I don't know how they pencil out in the long run for transit agencies, how much or more do they cost compared to a regular bus.

For the previously mentioned Foothill Transit Agency, their findings for battery electric buses aren't that great and they prefer Fuel Cell powered buses as they only need two FC buses to provide the same service as three BE buses, resulting in lower lifetime operating costs.

https://i.imgur.com/ddq1jBW.png

https://cafcp.org/sites/default/file...e-to-Board.pdf

jd3189 Jan 7, 2022 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9495253)
some subway is good out there for sure, but more than any other city la is the one i wish for the most to bring the streetcars back.

i guess car drivers would never go for it anymore, but still i wish they would experiment with it somewhere to see what happens.

Dang, you beat me to it. But still, to address the responses to this, there are many ways to accommodate streetcars and/busses to the transportation infrastructure so that they don't have to deal with the bullshit traffic.

In fact, the main thing that can push more people in LA to use public transportation over the car is to stress the shittiness of traffic. People will deal with it because they still love the independence their cars give ( I know that's my reasoning for driving over taking PT), but there are many days when it ain't worth sitting in the middle of rush hour not moving an inch.

Thus, the marketing team for LA's public transit better figure out how to make a good case. Some genius from Hollywood has to be among their ranks :haha:

But I am serious, traffic is a pain in the ass.

sopas ej Jan 7, 2022 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by accord1999 (Post 9495609)
For the previously mentioned Foothill Transit Agency, their findings for battery electric buses aren't that great and they prefer Fuel Cell powered buses as they only need two FC buses to provide the same service as three BE buses, resulting in lower lifetime operating costs.

https://i.imgur.com/ddq1jBW.png

https://cafcp.org/sites/default/file...e-to-Board.pdf

Ah, how disappointing. Oh well. Maybe as the technology for electric buses becomes more common, they'll jump on the electric bus bandwagon again.

mhays Jan 7, 2022 4:37 AM

Marketing is just part of it. I'll say it again....but lanes would speed the buses dramatically, as they've done in other cities. LA has very little bus-only infrastructure.

craigs Jan 7, 2022 4:54 AM

It's not that LA cannot or does not have any good bus service at all, it's just that the MTA is playing catch up. It wasn't that long ago that locals and their representatives were reflexively anti-transit.

LA has a fantastic 24-hour BRT line in the Valley, the G Line, which runs in an exclusive dedicated ROW from Chatsworth to the North Hollywood B Line subway station. I've seen some of the G Line stations and crossed the ROW many times since I moved back, and it is impressive. There is another BRT line, the J Line, from San Pedro through downtown and out to El Monte. I know that much of the line is grade-separated, but I'm not sure about the split as I've never seen it myself and the Wikipedia entry doesn't really say.

mhays Jan 7, 2022 4:57 AM

Spines are just part of the issue, whether they're rail or BRT. Imagine an avenue every mile or half-mile having frequent bus service in dedicated lanes.

SAN Man Jan 7, 2022 2:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays (Post 9495814)
Spines are just part of the issue, whether they're rail or BRT. Imagine an avenue every mile or half-mile having frequent bus service in dedicated lanes.

That would get things moving if there's enough space along the road for dedicated lanes.

San Diego's route 215 is a BRT that goes down Park Blvd and El Cajon Blvd from Downtown to SDSU with dedicated lanes and some stations in the middle of the road. ECB was the old US 80 highway that came into the city from the east. It was 3 lanes in each direction plus a median with left turning lanes. The city was able to eliminate 1 lane on each side and turn it into a bus only lane. I don't think many of LA's roads have the space to eliminate a lane for a bus lane.

Park/University BRT stop: https://goo.gl/maps/FmWVmytSeuFhacr1A
Rapid stop in the median: https://goo.gl/maps/wQHgFdCr3z6WispB8
El Cajon Blvd Bus Lane: https://goo.gl/maps/qfLMoycWA9jqFnA56

Way out in Otay, part of Chula Vista, planners did a good job dedicating space for BRT:
https://goo.gl/maps/9TyVSCDfhs1rBU8Z6
https://goo.gl/maps/dELjTgbc2WfaZ9fx5

mhays Jan 7, 2022 4:42 PM

The typical avenue has street parking. Get rid of that and it would work.

Turn lanes are another opportunity.

Each avenue would be an epic battle, and the other side would have valid points, but it's still a potential.

SFBruin Jan 7, 2022 6:37 PM

No, but it's not a problem to try.

lrt's friend Jan 7, 2022 7:01 PM

Streetcars are useless unless there is room for dedicated lanes. Streetcars in mixed traffic are slower than buses because they cannot go around obstacles as simple as a turning vehicle. Don't waste money on something that will not deliver better service.

The emphasis should be on bus lanes and building a frequent bus network that complements and feeds the rail network. Solve that last mile problem. You shouldn't feel it is necessary to walk 20 minutes to a rail station.

Working on upgrading the commuter rail network to all-day relatively frequent service mirrors what Toronto is currently working on with its GO rail network and will be a game changer.

Don't expect miracles overnight. This will require a generational change, so a focus on serving colleges and universities well will support a generational change. Here, university tuition includes a transit pass.

Another thing that has worked well here, is to include a transit fare in major event ticket prices, then provide enough transit capacity to support this. Getting car drivers to take transit to even one or two events a year, is a step towards the majority considering transit as an option, rather than just a scary alternative only for the very poor.

mrnyc Jan 7, 2022 7:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAN Man (Post 9495386)
Wouldn't a streetcar that is fixed on rails and running in traffic be a slower mode of transportation from the current bus system?

Busses have the flexibility to move around traffic backups and the city can build bus pull-outs to let traffic pass by as passengers load onto the bus.

perhaps, but they can be given right of way.

so could busses too tho.

the point of streetcars being to promote attractive, walkable neighborhoods, or improve those that exist, something los angeles desperately needs, rather than speed. unlike busses you could hop on and off more easily anywhere and you would get out at the subway if you wanted to get to dtla/union station fast.

i think its well worth a try at least, like first with a quieter street like along the main drag in los feliz, something like that, rather than start with than something much busier like say la cienega. just for proof of concept. :tup:

iheartthed Jan 7, 2022 7:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9496334)
perhaps, but they can be given right of way.

so could busses too tho.

the point of streetcars being to promote attractive, walkable neighborhoods, or improve those that exist, something los angeles desperately needs, rather than speed. unlike busses you could hop on and off more easily anywhere and you would get out at the subway if you wanted to get to dtla/union station fast.

i think its well worth a try at least, like first with a quieter street like along the main drag in los feliz, something like that, rather than start with than something much busier like say la cienega. just for proof of concept. :tup:

Streetcars are also higher capacity, so they would move more people than buses.

lrt's friend Jan 7, 2022 7:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 9496358)
Streetcars are also higher capacity, so they would move more people than buses.

You are getting up to LRT size and then you definitely don't want them in mixed traffic. The temptation here is run these huge vehicles at poor frequencies, which is self-defeating.

edale Jan 7, 2022 7:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 9496334)
perhaps, but they can be given right of way.

so could busses too tho.

the point of streetcars being to promote attractive, walkable neighborhoods, or improve those that exist, something los angeles desperately needs, rather than speed. unlike busses you could hop on and off more easily anywhere and you would get out at the subway if you wanted to get to dtla/union station fast.

i think its well worth a try at least, like first with a quieter street like along the main drag in los feliz, something like that, rather than start with than something much busier like say la cienega. just for proof of concept. :tup:

A series of neighborhood circulator streetcars in neighborhoods with metro stops would be hugely beneficial.

mrnyc Jan 7, 2022 7:34 PM

^ exactly!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend (Post 9496367)
You are getting up to LRT size and then you definitely don't want them in mixed traffic. The temptation here is run these huge vehicles at poor frequencies, which is self-defeating.

true, but that happens with busses all the time too.

for example, here in nyc we got a lot of articulated busses several years ago. so you gained capacity, but then there were less busses, so you lost frequency.

its just something to be aware of and you have to advocate about it constantly.

i wasn't thinking of a bigger lrt train tho.


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