Yep. Doctors need to introduce more rationality to the discussion. Fauci is fine and all but the public needs to realize that the medical community is not totally behind his “doom is near!” approach to everything. There are disagreements (non-partisan ones) within the medical community on some of the things he is telling people. Good luck explaining that to CNN though....

Moderna started clinical trials in the first humans of their mRNA vaccine in the US in March 2020. This was at a time when the total global death count was about 6,000. It was also at the time before states began locking down. They were already talking about a two dose system and the shots would be spaced out by 28 days.

They might have some idea how long the immunity lasts from the early clinical trials.

Also, Moderna had vials of vaccine ready by February 7th, 2020, waiting for clearance for human testing.

Smoking isn't banned because of the smell. It's banned for public health reasons associated with second hand smoke.

:haha:

Ok, dude

Because that's what so many family businesses that are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy need right now, is for us to call the City on them so that they can be issued a citation. I'm sure somebody else who hates the world will do it, but there is ZERO CHANCE IN HELL I would ever do something like that

But you're okay letting them not follow basic rules that are intended to shorten the pandemic? Interesting.

And my issue too, from the beginning of this whole pandemic, is the attitude of people always just thinking about the perceived inconvenience of the customer/themselves as a customer. Nobody ever seems to think about the workers at these businesses. Prior to the availability of the vaccines, those workers at these stores/restaurants were very vulnerable to catching the virus, dealing with different customers and each other for whole work weeks. And, per CDC guidelines, it only takes 2 (or is it 3? I don't remember) workers at one place of employment to test positive for COVID to be considered an outbreak, so even from a business owner's standpoint, you do not want an outbreak at your business or else it will have to be shut down/sanitized, inspected by the county, etc., before it can reopen (I'm in HR and my company has gone to great lengths to make sure we don't get shut down or fined). Every business has to follow specific protocols regarding their employees, and even people who visit, and proper signage.

Relax, guys, I think you all know I'm very supportive of masking.

But I'm just not a "call and report a business" type. Not my personality. I always hate people who do that. Sorry

yeah i thought that too, but thats not what i read.

the likelihood of a reaction depends on your age or maybe if you already had covid, but any or no reaction does not effect how well the vaccines work.

or so the docs say. :tup:

edit: actually my spouse has some kind of vertigo thing now she never had before several days after the first pfizer shot, not sure that is vaccine related, but we think so, she never gets sick.

^ I just believe that individuals should wear masks, and not call the Government on eachother all of the time to solve their problems.

I already know you disagree with me, but at my core that's just how I view the world. We aren't going to convince eachother on this particular topic, so we might as well stop here

Perhaps. I'm just not very sympathetic to a business flouting rules that are intended to get us all through this faster. I hope those businesses that aren't following basic rules do get shut down.

Me neither... or breaking any other rules that are supposed to protect their employees, let alone customers.

Once again, I'm not against indoor mask mandates.

I'm just not the guy who picks up the phone and calls the city. That's the kind of stuff dicks do. I can't stand those people

Ok Karen

I had a similar reaction a day after I got the second Pfizer shot. Not sure I'd describe it as vertigo, just a very weird feeling of disorientation, like I was living through "bullet time" from The Matrix. Lasted about a half day, then disappeared.

They might have some idea, yes, which may be why every virologist is saying with confidence the immunity lasts longer than 6 months.

But that isn't the way these things get reported. The data generally is tabulated based on when the trials are fully subscribed and the last person included is signed up so that that person is included in the results. In other words, the 6 months started around early September which was 6 months before early March. Also, of course, the analysis of samples for antibodies takes some time and then more time to write up the data--maybe another month. Which brings us to now. That's just the way science works.

As far as vaccine development timing goes, this has been described but I'll repeat. The Modern and Pfizer vaccines are based on research taking place over the last DECADE. Pfizer's partner, Bio-N-Tech expected to use the results of its work, which was key, for CANCER immunotherapy, not anti-viral vaccines. Other researchers involved had been working on vaccines for SARS and MERS.

When the SARS-CoV-2 virus (cause of COVID) came along, everyone quickly realized the applicability of their previous work and it took literally hours to days to design a COVID vaccine based on it. Then the 3 phases of trials had to be begun which are the most expensive and time-consuming part of this kind of drug discovery. First they had to do Phase 1 trials showing the vaccines produced SOME antibodies. Then they had to do Phase 2 safety trials showing they didn't cause unacceptable side effects in a small group of test subjects. This took a couple of months. Only then were they ready to enroll the large number of participants in phase 3 trials: 44,000 in the case of Pfizer/Bio-N-Tech, 38,000 for Modern and 70,000 for Johnson & Johnson. That took several months (and some government money, especially for Moderna which was a small company). Finally, when all the people were enrolled and vaccinated with 1 or 2 shots as required, it was well into late summer/early fall. As I recall, the FDA wanted 3 months of data once the trials were fully enrolled. That's how we got to late November/early December for approval of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines and how we got to now for 3 more months of tabulated data including blood samples for antibody testing (remember, the vaccines were approved based on epidemiological grounds--preventing disease--not antibody production).

Yeah, that shit is peak Karen. See a business not enforcing masks? just don't go in.

That's slightly wrong I'm afraid. The reason for the age relationship is probably that older people have weaker immune systems and so the fact that younger people seem to have more side effects to the vaccine actually makes the point of what I'm saying. The side effects are a result of immune activity. There is not a direct correlation between the severity of the reaction and successful vaccination though--clearly there are other factors. But having a mild reaction of the sort I mentioned can be taken as reassuring--not a bad thing--and, again, is part and parcel of doing what vaccines do.

Being a "doc", I'm saying it: :tup: back at ya.

However, it's not just me. I'll let the World Health Organization explain it:

https://www.who.int/news-room/featur...id-19-vaccines

That might work in urban areas. Where I am right now there are two grocery stores--same chain. Fortunately, they do have a mask mandate policy although last time I was in there I saw several unmasked people. Nowhere else to buy groceries though. Arizona has lifted its mask mandate. My county (Pima) claims its is still valid but I'm not getting into a state vs. county fight.

The point here is that going unmasked into a store with sign at the door "masks required" in a county that "mandates" them is evidence of severe stubbornness beyond being a Karen IMHO. It's proof you don't give a damn about your fellow man and want them to know it. I react with hostility to that.

Being a Karen is reporting a person or business not complying with a mandate. People refusing to wear masks where required or encouraged are not Karens but simply assholes. Either way, Im not going confront that individual over their refusal to wear a masks and most businesses have adopted that policy as well.

I was in rural Texas at a gas station where no one including staff wore a mask, I walked out and drove 20-30 miles to the next one. Didn't feel need to report them. Darwin sorted that mess out.

^ I'm actually more sympathetic to calling police on belligerent assholes who refuse to wear masks despite being told otherwise, as opposed to calling the City to report businesses who are failing to enforce city mandates.

There seems to be a "stick it to business" mentality among a certain urban, non-business-owning crowd that one gets weary of--probably because said crowd would rather penalize somebody else than have individual citizens (including potentially themselves) be held responsible. It's always easy to pass the buck to other people than oneself.

If we really want to make people wear masks indoors, then make it a misdemeanor for any individual found not wearing a mask in such settings.

Of course, I'm guessing that the crowd that wants to stick it to businesses will suddenly go silent when asked if they would support something like that.