Ride the #9 much? Seriously, your argument is going to hinge around the routes that run LaSalle?

Playing the race card? Really, because I don't like buses? Don't be a fool. I ride the #77 bus daily, and very few black people ride the bus. Most of them are white and filthy.

http://www.ctatattler.com/2009/03/sm...ine-rehab.html

Small progress unveiled in Grand Red Line rehab

A glimmer of hope shined through the dank, dark platforms at the Grand and State Red Line station, which has been undergoing renovation since April of last year: the unearthing of a small section of the new tile wall.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5459/38794230.jpg

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/...cceptable.html

The city is shocked, shocked to learn that a company in the private sector is more interested in profit than providing a service.

1996 called and wants its tiled wall back. Gag, why is CDOT still using this anachronistic design? To me, it may be nice and new—but it's tacky/busy/passe and should've been shelved way back when they did Roosevelt. For what a snazzy new station reno should look like check out NY's new South Ferry stop or pretty much any new subway station oversees. Dissapointing. I do dig the sation entrances though.

Could they continue routing the red line through the State Street subway, route the brown line through the new Clinton Subway, and maybe beef up purple line express service so that it continues throughout the day, thereby continuing to provide northside service to the loop? People heading to/from the various areas of downtown & the northside would have a relatively simple transfer at Belmont or Fullerton if needed.

The Carroll Transitway would have its own level in the West Loop Transportation Center, and it would run down to some point around Monroe, where passengers could transfer to the subway or Metra.

Personally, I think they should just turn Clinton into a bus mall on the surface level. It would reduce the depth of the excavations and reduce the costs dramatically. The city could even build some sort of cool landmark roof over the street. A transit mall didn't work on State Street, but that's a totally different circumstance...

As for the $6 billion cost - I don't think it's too unreasonable. The 2nd Ave Subway in NY is costing $4.3 billion for the first, 1.5-mile phase. This is including pricey extras like using tunnel-boring machines and keeping 2nd Avenue open up above.

The Clinton subway will be 3 times longer - 3.5 mi - but CTA can close Larrabee and Clinton, or narrow them down to one lane while construction happens, which allows them to use the much cheaper cut-and-cover method. Hell, back in the 40s, CTA kind of used cut-and-cover to build the State Street Subway, and underpinned State Street in order to keep it open above.

I said kind of - purists may note that, while the tunnels for the subway were in fact bored, the stations were built with cut-and-cover, and the continuous platform station in the Loop, with frequent mezzanines, required lots of cut-and-cover.

Probably the best way to use a Larrabee-Clinton subway is to run Red Line trains that way, with Brown-Orange throughrouted via the State Street Subway. There'd be interchange between the two at Fullerton, as now, and at a new South Loop station somewhere north of Chinatown. This would reduce the crowding on the Loop Elevated.

Reducing reliance on the Loop elevated is a good thing (I look forward to the day when it serves a more historical/tourist function than a utilitarian one), but then what would access the Brown Line stations south of Fullerton, and what would Brown and Orange Line riders use to access Loop stations? An all-day Purple Line perhaps?

I don't know what they mean by it, but the article said it. The article right above the post I am quoting from you says it too: the budgets "aren't out of line with" current projections.

I'm pretty sure its just the condo board here being innovative. Park Tower Condominium is probably one of the best run towers in the city, the board and management are great and super effective.

That's not true at all. Trains in Chicago have far seedier people on them because you can transfer unlimited times for free and there is no operator sitting right there like on buses. The only places the buses are seedy are in bad neighborhoods. Why you would expect to be in a bad neighborhood and not be around seedy people is beyond me, its like living downtown and expecting ample street parking and peace and quiet...

^ Interesting idea, but a bus mall wouldn't have its own grade-separated ROW and thus would be slowed down by traffic lights, etc.

Earlier I criticized buses, but I would like to add the caveat that I would definitely ride a bus system if it were grade-separated such as what's planned with this or the Carroll Ave or Lakefront line routes.

I'm not going to argue with you because there's no way to tell for sure. All I can tell you is that from what I experience, riding the number 80, 77, and 9 buses regulary (multiple times a week), that's what I've noticed. I also ride the Brown, red, purple, green and pink lines regularly as well, and blue a few times a month if I travel.

To me, the homeless aren't "seedy." They mind their own business and are usually as nice as they can be.

^^^ I'm not just talking about the homeless. Though the homeless are often very seedy, I'm not talking about the ones who sit quietly, I'm talking about the people who go back and forth on the cars repeatedly hustling you for money.

I'm also talking about the drunk people who wander the trains and harass you. I've seen women (one time it was my girlfriend who I was with) being sexually harassed by drunks or other creepy people pretty frequently on trains never once seen someone bother another person on a bus because the driver will just throw them off...

I'm sure this can be settled with data from Everyblock, but I agree that crime is worse on trains by far. So are annoying things like panhandling and preaching, which I pretty much never see on buses because the driver would immediately throw them off. There are sometimes crime waves on the Green Line. I've never heard of something analogous on buses, although they have occasional shootings at night in the worst areas. I've seen some pretty bad stuff on the el, but the only time I ever felt at risk on a bus was from a woman on drugs on the #6. The bus driver immediately pulled over and the cops got her off the bus within a couple of minutes. On the train it can be much harder to take care of a situation like that.

The last two murders occured on buses(15 year old girl on south side and police officer at Belmont/Western). I can't even remember the last murder on a train. I do know of a few assaults on the platforms.

$15 billion is a lot, but if we could get firm commitments for an 80% match from the feds, that cuts down the Illinois/Chicago portion to only $3 billion, which spread over ten years would be $300 million per year. Or just under $10 per month per city resident. If they bonded the cost to 30 years, it'd be even less on an annual basis.

Does that seem unattainable?

It's always been about priorities, not about availability of cash. Maybe (maybe) now we have the political will to actually get some of the major portions done.

A bit part of that cost has to do with the transit centers in the West Loop. As much as I like incredible feats of engineering as times goes by the more I become disillusioned with the WLTC. There has to be a better more inexpensive way to interconnect all the transit functions without building a subterranean four level multi-block complex.

Also even thoguh I know the bus routing around Union has to be fixed I would tend to think that the parking deck south of the station could be better used then what will be a spruced up bus depot.

I have seen people randomly attacked on the Green Line and the Blue Line. I know many people who have been robbed on train platforms and on trains, sometimes right after school when the train is full of kids. I've never seen that on a bus and I've never heard of it except on lightly used lines in the most dangerous neighborhoods at night--and I've taken such "seedy" buses as the 54, the 9, and the 55 regularly. I've also never been a captive audience to an aggressive speech-giving panhandler, a soapbox preacher, or a three-card hustler on a bus. I'm not saying that people should be afraid to take the train--I still prefer the train--I'm just saying that in bad situations, you can't have the level of safety on the train that you can have on a bus by simply sitting or standing near the driver. (As for murder, that's a rare enough thing on any mode of transit that I don't generally take it into account.)

Thinking about how to save money.

There are a couple components of the WLTC that probably can't be moved. A west loop subway probably does have to happen under Clinton. One station on this line would probably be located at Monroe. This station would connect directly to the Monroe transitway, and via a concourse to Union Station and Ogilvie. So that's 2 levels: tracks/platforms, plus the concourse/mezzanine.

As for the other two levels:
The "Clinton Transitway" (aka busway) - does that really have to be below ground? Who knows.

For HSR, though, there are numerous complicating factors that make it difficult to run HSR trains to the WLTC under Clinton. First, the HSR trains are envisioned on the bottom level, which would make the approaches extremely long and expensive. Also, how do you power the trains when they're in this tunnel? Dual mode trains? Do you build an expensive but probably still imperfect ventilation system? A 4-level escalator to reach the HSR platforms seems extreme, too. And how many HSR tracks/platforms can fit under Clinton anyway? The renderings I've seen show apparently just 2 tracks and 1 island platform. Dedicated HSR platforms and lead tracks increase speed and efficiency, but is it worth all that expense?

The easier and less expensive (but also less flexible) solution would be to rebuild union station to have more through tracks. Through-routing commuter trains would free up some slots, making Metra more convenient to boot. This does come with its own set of issues though, not the least of which is that there are only 3 tracks on approach to Union Station from the north and that could severely restrict capacity. In addition, this would cause the added expense of condemning and demolishing 222 S Riverside.

So, to summarize: which one will cost less: a 3-4 level WLTC with expensive approaches for HSR, or a 2-3 level WLTC PLUS the union station reconfiguration. And, how do you deal with the complications of each?

Yep.

Since 6/15/2007

CTA Bus: 2, 476
CTA Train: 2, 471

Bus route miles are approx. 10X train miles, and twice as many passenger trips by bus, so it would seem trains are more dangerous. That said, either bus or train are safer than the streets and crime locations on the CTA seem to roughly follow the distribution of crime by neighborhood.