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Illithid Dude Jun 11, 2024 2:15 AM

CP would have worked much better if cabs and rideshare were exempt. It should only apply to privately owned vehicles.

mrnyc Jun 11, 2024 2:28 AM

Congestion pricing: How do people get to Hochul’s favorite Midtown diners? Mainly by foot and transit

By Ben Brachfeld
Posted on June 10, 2024




We spoke to 25 customers across the three diners and asked them how they arrived: 21 of them got there on foot or by mass transit, while only three drove a car and one took a cab.


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/congest...iners-transit/

Crawford Jun 11, 2024 11:29 AM

There are rumors there might be some compromise brewing, where Hochul might try and save face.

There might still be CP, but it will start at a lower rate.

dchan Jun 11, 2024 2:12 PM

Really, people from NJ are actually going (never mind driving) to these three mediocre midtown diners when they can go to the awesome Tops Diner in East Newark?

Video Link


Seriously, do yourselves a favor and go to Tops Diner sometime. I had the best chicken and waffles there that I ever had.

Or if Tops is packed, go to another NJ diner. NJ is known for diners, most of which are probably better than these mediocre Midtown diners and definitely significantly less expensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 10222954)
There are rumors there might be some compromise brewing, where Hochul might try and save face.

There might still be CP, but it will start at a lower rate.

Not surprised, considering the complete brouhaha that her office has been facing. CP advocates are totally pissed, and the MTA is pissed.

Hochul is in a position of "stupid or liar". She's either a complete idiot, or she's lying through her teeth with BS reasoning.

My main concern is one that I've known since I did my research project 15+ years ago. To wean drivers away from driving, you need very good to excellent quality transportation alternatives. And this is one area where I can't fault drivers here. Where are our excellent transportation alternatives?

I certainly don't trust the MTA much of the time. The MTA has stolen way too much of our valuable time through constant delays, whether through normal operations, scheduled maintenance, or unforeseen circumstances. As I have written many times, I won't evade fares, but I will definitely avoid using the MTA if I can help it.

And if CP goes through again, will the MTA significantly increase good quality (fast with no unexplained BS slowdowns) weekend and mid-day service to provide an "very good transportation alternative" to travelers priced out from driving? Let's see.

Likewise, will we see better bike and e-mobility infrastructure to provide another good transportation alternative? Will bike and e-mobility users have routes that don't conflict with speeding crazy drivers? Will they have the ability to park somewhere without worrying that their bike or e-vehicle will be stolen?

Nouvellecosse Jun 11, 2024 3:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dchan (Post 10223056)
My main concern is one that I've known since I did my research project 15+ years ago. To wean drivers away from driving, you need very good to excellent quality transportation alternatives. And this is one area where I can't fault drivers here. Where are our excellent transportation alternatives?

I certainly don't trust the MTA much of the time. The MTA has stolen way too much of our valuable time through constant delays, whether through normal operations, scheduled maintenance, or unforeseen circumstances. As I have written many times, I won't evade fares, but I will definitely avoid using the MTA if I can help it.

And if CP goes through again, will the MTA significantly increase good quality (fast with no unexplained BS slowdowns) weekend and mid-day service to provide an "very good transportation alternative" to travelers priced out from driving? Let's see.

While I mostly agree, this part seems like a bit of a stretch. The idea that one of the cities with the most extensive transit systems in the world that already manages to provide the around half the transit trips in the entire country and the majority of trips in the city still can't support congestion pricing because it isn't perfect. Well driving isn't perfect either as there's a constant possibility of unexpected slow downs from things like accidents, construction etc. Yet transit had to be held to such a high standard that it's immune? Well that's just not realistic.

But fortunately, CP doesn't need wean most drivers away from their cars because congestion, when not exasperated by other factors, is caused by excess road usage that exceeds capacity not by an appropriate number of vehicles using the capacity available. And that excess usage can be a fairly small percentage of the total. So for CP to work well it only needs to dissuade a small percentage of drivers, or dissuade a larger percentage of drivers a small percentage of the time. In fact, if it pushed all or most drivers out of their cars it wouldn't make any money because there'd be no one to pay the charge or not enough people to counteract the administration costs. So one of the biggest benefits of CP would be lost.

k1052 Jun 11, 2024 4:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 10222829)
Congestion pricing: How do people get to Hochul’s favorite Midtown diners? Mainly by foot and transit

By Ben Brachfeld
Posted on June 10, 2024




We spoke to 25 customers across the three diners and asked them how they arrived: 21 of them got there on foot or by mass transit, while only three drove a car and one took a cab.


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/congest...iners-transit/

Most business owners in urban areas have super wrong ideas about how their customers actually arrive at their places. Those same owners will also typically drive to their business in their personal vehicles so they see everything through that lens.

iheartthed Jun 11, 2024 6:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude (Post 10222823)
CP would have worked much better if cabs and rideshare were exempt. It should only apply to privately owned vehicles.

Cabs and rideshares would only be charged once per day, so they would likely make money from the surcharge if they enter the zone multiple times per day. I do think they should've exempted private bus operators, but not because it would be an unaffordable charge. It just gave opponents of the CP plan another angle to attack it, while the revenue from private bus services would be minimal.

mrnyc Jun 12, 2024 1:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 10223315)
Cabs and rideshares would only be charged once per day, so they would likely make money from the surcharge if they enter the zone multiple times per day. I do think they should've exempted private bus operators, but not because it would be an unaffordable charge. It just gave opponents of the CP plan another angle to attack it, while the revenue from private bus services would be minimal.

in part this is where there is room for a compromise -- i would hope. :shrug:

mrnyc Jun 12, 2024 1:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dchan (Post 10223056)
Really, people from NJ are actually going (never mind driving) to these three mediocre midtown diners when they can go to the awesome Tops Diner in East Newark?

Video Link


Seriously, do yourselves a favor and go to Tops Diner sometime. I had the best chicken and waffles there that I ever had.

Or if Tops is packed, go to another NJ diner. NJ is known for diners, most of which are probably better than these mediocre Midtown diners and definitely significantly less expensive.


i looked at the menu here and not to mention, but the breakfast dishes are literally half the price of ps. eat something before you come in! :D

dchan Jun 13, 2024 1:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 10223817)
i looked at the menu here and not to mention, but the breakfast dishes are literally half the price of ps. eat something before you come in! :D

Well, not quite half, but Tops is definitely several dollars cheaper and probably better (I haven't been to Pershing Square to eat yet, nor do I have any interest in overpriced diner food).

Actually, I did manage to find a plum free parking spot one block south of Pershing Square on a Friday night during the December holiday season. It was a little past 7pm, and the spots on Park Av along the viaduct had just switched from commercial-only to free for all. I was the only car there. So maybe I'm the driver that Governor Hochul is talking about. :haha:

Nexis4Jersey Jun 15, 2024 1:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 10223817)
i looked at the menu here and not to mention, but the breakfast dishes are literally half the price of ps. eat something before you come in! :D

They switched owners during the pandemic and demolished their old 1920s trolley car diner for a new diner...and 3x the prices..

Crawford Jun 15, 2024 3:26 AM

So the Biden administration formally signed off on congestion pricing today.

The only person standing in the way of a June 30 start is Kathy Hochul.

mrnyc Jun 16, 2024 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dchan (Post 10224730)
Well, not quite half, but Tops is definitely several dollars cheaper and probably better (I haven't been to Pershing Square to eat yet, nor do I have any interest in overpriced diner food).

Actually, I did manage to find a plum free parking spot one block south of Pershing Square on a Friday night during the December holiday season. It was a little past 7pm, and the spots on Park Av along the viaduct had just switched from commercial-only to free for all. I was the only car there. So maybe I'm the driver that Governor Hochul is talking about. :haha:

i saw the egg dishes on the menu there were $15 and the amny said $30 for ps. :shrug:

mrnyc Jun 16, 2024 11:05 PM

speaking of — food for lawsuits if she don’t sign off —




Congestion pricing: Feds give final approval, seem to counter Hochul’s economic reasoning for pausing Manhattan tolls

By Ben BrachfeldPosted on June 16, 2024


The Federal Highway Administration’s final approval for the MTA’s now-shelved congestion pricing program gave plaudits to the tolling scheme which Gov. Kathy Hochul scuttled for the sake of easing economic costs to drivers.

On the contrary, the approval decision on June 14 seemed to indicate that congestion pricing would provide significant economic benefits, including “travel-time savings and travel-time reliability improvements, as well as reduced vehicle operating costs.” 


more:
https://www.amny.com/transit/congest...nhattan-tolls/

dchan Jun 17, 2024 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnyc (Post 10226951)
i saw the egg dishes on the menu there were $15 and the amny said $30 for ps. :shrug:

The PSC online menu says it's $19 for eggs with bacon, home fries, and toast. The same dish is $15.50 at Tops Diner. So PSC is certainly expensive, but not $30 for eggs and meat expensive.

Gantz Jun 17, 2024 7:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse (Post 10223121)
While I mostly agree, this part seems like a bit of a stretch. The idea that one of the cities with the most extensive transit systems in the world that already manages to provide the around half the transit trips in the entire country and the majority of trips in the city still can't support congestion pricing because it isn't perfect. Well driving isn't perfect either as there's a constant possibility of unexpected slow downs from things like accidents, construction etc. Yet transit had to be held to such a high standard that it's immune? Well that's just not realistic.

But fortunately, CP doesn't need wean most drivers away from their cars because congestion, when not exasperated by other factors, is caused by excess road usage that exceeds capacity not by an appropriate number of vehicles using the capacity available. And that excess usage can be a fairly small percentage of the total. So for CP to work well it only needs to dissuade a small percentage of drivers, or dissuade a larger percentage of drivers a small percentage of the time. In fact, if it pushed all or most drivers out of their cars it wouldn't make any money because there'd be no one to pay the charge or not enough people to counteract the administration costs. So one of the biggest benefits of CP would be lost.

CP has nothing to do with actual road congestion. If it did, they wouldn't have it during the night or weekends. Its just used to get extra tax revenue.
If they wanted to seriously tackle congestion, they would instead make necessary infrastructure improvements to divert flows of traffic away (for example, not funnel Long Island commuters into NYC every time they want to drive to mainland US), improve mass transit to make people choose it instead of a car, or to fix actual congestion issues in Manhattan itself - #1 issue is the double parking from delivery vehicles/trucks, not the actual number of cars on the road.

Nouvellecosse Jun 17, 2024 7:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gantz (Post 10227435)
CP has nothing to do with actual road congestion. If it did, they wouldn't have it during the night or weekends. Its just used to get extra tax revenue.
If they wanted to seriously tackle congestion, they would instead make necessary infrastructure improvements to divert flows of traffic away (for example, not funnel Long Island commuters into NYC every time they want to drive to mainland US), improve mass transit to make people choose it instead of a car, or to fix actual congestion issues in Manhattan itself - #1 issue is the double parking from delivery vehicles/trucks, not the actual number of cars on the road.

That's actually a common myth that you can prevent congestion using transit or traffic flow changes in major cities. in reality, there is simply too much demand to handle meaning that there's congestion regardless of how much or little transit there is or how much or little road capacity there is. So there's congestion in both Tokyo and LA, Paris and Houston, Moscow and Toronto. And there can be congestion at practically any time in such large and dense cities. But you're right in that it isn't only about congestion since raising funds for infrastructure improvements is also an important goal. And investing the time, money, and political will in setting up such a program is expensive so it doesn't make sense to leave huge amounts of potential revenue on the table. But to claim that because it has another important goal besides congestion that it has "nothing to do with congestion" just just plain false. Whether or not a particular implementation of CP is done in a way that one likes or agrees with has no bearing on the underlying concept which is sound.

mrnyc Jun 17, 2024 7:56 PM

watch out automated bus camera ticketing is starting —



Automated ticketing of drivers blocking MTA bus stops begins this week

Drivers who block bus stops will soon be ticketed under a new program using cameras mounted to the front of MTA buses, transit officials announced on Monday.

The initiative expands an existing pilot program that used cameras on 600 MTA buses to automatically ticket drivers who illegally block bus lanes on 14 routes. Now, the technology will be updated to ticket drivers blocking any bus stop — not just ones with dedicated bus lanes.

More than 1,000 buses total on 32 routes will be outfitted with the cameras by the end of the year, according to the MTA. For the next 60 days, drivers caught parking or double parking at bus stops will receive warnings, transit officials officials said at a press conference in Washington Heights.

more:
https://gothamist.com/news/automated...gins-this-week

iheartthed Jun 17, 2024 9:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gantz (Post 10227435)
CP has nothing to do with actual road congestion. If it did, they wouldn't have it during the night or weekends. Its just used to get extra tax revenue.
If they wanted to seriously tackle congestion, they would instead make necessary infrastructure improvements to divert flows of traffic away (for example, not funnel Long Island commuters into NYC every time they want to drive to mainland US), improve mass transit to make people choose it instead of a car, or to fix actual congestion issues in Manhattan itself - #1 issue is the double parking from delivery vehicles/trucks, not the actual number of cars on the road.

How would Long Islanders ever avoid NYC when commuting to destinations beyond? Or do you mean Manhattan? There are bypasses for Long Island drivers to get to NJ, Westchester and CT, without going through Manhattan.

Busy Bee Jun 17, 2024 9:31 PM

^The Sound Tunnel.


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