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One possibility that would have a minimum of disruption would be to have the MSG and Brookfield do a sight swap. MSG gets to stay near Penn station, and Brookfield gets oodles of air rights. New Yorkers get a masterpiece station. Win-win for everyone.
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Ironically, the Brookfield site was potentially home for NBA headquarters, but that site is zoned for over 5 msf, making a swap unfeasible. What you would have is a replay of the current MSG blocking unused development rights. http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/77418257/original.jpg Here's a look at what a new Farley/Moynihan inside the Farley would look like... http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/93450455/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/93825631/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/86828840/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/nyguy/image/86828837/original.jpg |
@ NY guy
That proposal would take care of a lot of the concerns that people have, aesthetic and practical ones. But I was wondering what New Yorkers thought about having the main Basketball franchise of the city call a former post office their home? I just think the Knicks have a big more swag than that... |
^^ I don't see why a post office is any less swag-tastic than an ugly modernist toilet bowl. If there's any swag to be had in the architecture, it's in the clubhouse, not the facade.
Does anybody actually think MSG is attractive? Obviously the interior's been remodeled numerous times, but the exterior is still pretty awful, and it's crowded out by all the Penn Station entrances. MSG is an outdated inefficient arena sitting on top of an outdated, inefficient rail station. It's really a lose-lose and any option that doesn't move MSG elsewhere will result in a sub-par station. The tunnels are laid out such that the platforms are more or less centered between 8th and 7th, although some of them go a bit further west - that's why the West End Concourse is possible. The solution shown in NYguy's renderings is perfect - a dedicated headhouse on each side of 8th Avenue, with MSG in the west part of Farley (where it's not above platforms) and a reclad/renovated Two Penn Plaza. I think the architecture could use some work, but the concept is exactly right for New York. One thing I've never heard discussed is where the postal functions would go. Obviously, that's an important service that needs to remain somewhere in the city. |
As I recall there is a big post office or dispatch or something just south of the rail yards. I'm not sure what it is but its almost 2 city blocks and there are postal service trucks and loading docks there, so I assume they're fine.
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The one with all the towers is absolutely beautiful.
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Ok, I'm almost convinced. How bout moving the garden two blocks west - between 10th and 11th over the rail yards. It would replace a dead block and it would be right next to the high line. Picture a retrofuturistic red brick, brass, and oxydated bronze arena complex sitting adjacent to the High line with all the galleries and alternative nightlife in the area. Could make for a pretty sick revitalization kick-start for the Hudson Yards |
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^^^ That's what I thought it was.
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Check the link meanwhile for construction updates on the arena...
http://msgtransformation.com/Transformation.aspx# |
Since they are renovating it, then there is no way they are moving...right?
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http://msgtransformation.com/Transformation.aspx#
Well, since the OLD Madison Square Garden is in the process of being completely renovated... I guess it will NOT be a part of Moynihan Station. What's up with Moynihan Station? Is this project dead? |
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The renovation of the Farley building into a new entrance for Amtrak users is now referred to as Phase II. Phase I, which only includes building the West End concourse beneath the Farley building and upgrading the ventilation systems of Penn Station, has begun pre-construction, but won't get fully underway until next year (see below). As for demolishing Madison Square Garden and creating a great new above-ground portion of Penn Station (sometimes referred to as Moynihan West), that's not in the cards for now or the foreseeable future, largely because MSG doesn't want to move. MSG has embarked on pretty lame (but oddly expensive) interior renovations (as mentioned above) probably because they will have real competition for events starting next year when the Barclay Center opens. I have a feeling if Barclay starts seriously cutting into MSG's concert and event business, they might be motivated to go ahead with a more ambitious renovation that could include substantial renovations to Penn, or even move to a new facility altogether. But that's all speculation on my part. From Moynihan Phase I project pdfs on the ESDC's website: Phase 1 Schedule Design 100% Construction Documents – August 2011 Procurement Release Construction Management RFP – May 2011 Release Construction Contractors RFQ – May 2011 Release Bid Package (s) – September 2011 Construction Preliminary Work Order Contract – Summer 2011 Initial Amtrak Force Account Begins – Fall 2011 Phase 1 Construction Begins – March 2012 Phase 1 Construction Complete – September 2016 |
NY Post
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...ce=Post10Alpha WATCH: Workers transform MSG in amazing time-lapse video http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2011...0--300x300.jpg Knicks star forward Carmelo Anthony marvels earlier this summer at the pace crews at Madison Square Garden are working to finish the first phase of the renovation. By JEREMY OLSHAN July 28, 2011 Quote:
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I agree, but we're probably gonna have to wait a good 15 years after all the money spent on this renovation. |
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/di...s-upgrade.html
At Madison Square Garden, it’s Hey, Getcher Lobster Roll http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...ticleLarge.jpg Madison Square Garden will reopen with a new menu, including, from left, Andrew Carmellini's brats braised in Belgian beer, Drew Nieporent's Daily Burger and Jean-Georges Vongerichten's Simply Chicken. By GLENN COLLINS September 20, 2011 Quote:
___________________________________ http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2011/0...e-tastier.html The New Madison Square Garden Will Be Tastier http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/sp.../a_560x375.jpg By Seth Rosenthal 9/21/11 Quote:
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Hey! I was on the exact same tour as the guy who posted those Open House New York pics. It was super interesting. That place is cavernous. here are some interesting things they mentioned:
-The tracks already exist under Moynihan as they used to load the back ends of trains with mail so it was loaded out of the back while the passengers in the front would exit out of Penn station. The phase after that will take an additional 4 years or so and will involve entrances at 31/8th and 33 and 8th corners, then the Inter-modal passage (the mid-block connecter between the old and newer buildings that will serve as the taxi drop off and central entrance to the tracks -Construction will definitely start for the first four year phase next year. Mainly work on track ventilation to bring the area up to safety code for passengers. With the Hudson Yards being built there's nowhere for smoke to go in a fire so they're installing 4-6 huge fans to ventilate the substructure. -The post office has been shrinking inside the building. the vast majority of it has been empty for the last ten years. Immensely spacious open rooms with elements (restrooms, etc.) that are largely unchanged from the 1910's. -We should be seeing a new rendering next year. There will not be a potato chip glass structure in the inter-modal hall as anything that's visible from the street must keep in line with the look of the original landmarked structure. -They are evaluating different options to make the station pay for itself (train stations in themselves don't make money) They mentioned making it a retail destination and perhaps installing a boutique hotel. They even mentioned a big-box store (Target, department stores) moving into the western side. This makes sense as the floor plates are immense. -The station will serve intercity trains whereas Penn station across the street will primarily serve commuter traffic. The idea is that commuters don't spend time in the station so it is okay to be more functional than aesthetic, wheres the Moynihan will be an entrance into the city for travelers and will have amenities like Grand Central so that people enjoy spending time there. -There will be some kind of pedestrian passageway that follows the course of 32nd street through the block. I'm super excited for this project! |
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This is a very exciting project. Thanks for all the information NYguy and dwntwnr.
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I went on a tour of the building last night. It was too dark to take good photos, but I have a couple bits of information to add:
1. The construction schedule for Phase I (the West End Concourse expansion and ventilation work) is four years from the beginning of 2012. Even though the scope of work isn't huge, they're severely limited to the times of day that they can do work (only nights and weekends) because of the volume of train traffic directly below where they'll be working. So look for the concourse to open in 2016! 2. Phase II is dependent on funding, which would largely come from the sale of the 2 million square feet of air rights to potential adjacent development. The idea is that once this funding is secured, the construction schedule would be shorter than Phase I because it would not affect the trains below. In fact, Phase II would likely run concurrently with Phase I and finish at the same time, so depending on the health of the NYC office market (which seems to be doing pretty well), you could be boarding Amtrak trains from the new hall also in 2016. 3. We also talked about the MSG Renovation. I've suspected that MSG is doing a phased renovation now because they want to keep their options open in case the Barclays Center really starts to cut into their business in 2012 and MSG decides that it in fact needs a new facility. The guy from the Moynihan Station Redevepment Corporation shot down my theory, though. He believes that MSG will be staying put at least for the foreseeable future (10 years or so). He also mentioned something that I hadn't known but found interesting: MSG will not be renovating the exterior of their building because to do so would lose them their property tax abatement. Not sure on the specifics, but that abatement is substantial (I think they pay no property taxes per se and only make negotiated "payments in lieu of taxes", or PILOTs, to the city). Too bad since the exterior is the worst thing about that building. And one final note: I think the general public and some people who read about this project on this thread are still under the impression that this is a new train station independent of Penn Station. (A woman on the tour asked if Penn Station would close down when Moynihan Station opened!) This is not a new station. The station is where the trains stop and the tracks and platforms will be where they have always been. What's called Moynihan Station is just a new entrance to Penn Station with greatly improved passenger facilities. |
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Thanks for info. |
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http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6032/...b45d7b8a_b.jpg A block may not seem like a lot, but it is in terms of the way Penn Station works. It is sometimes impossible to even get into the station when the crowds are so large. But the new Moynihan station will releive that as it expands into the Farley building with a large, new concurse/terminus. But beyond that, it gives the station a visible presence as well, something that it lost when the original was demolished. One final thing to keep in mind - the LIRR, which is the largest user of Penn Station, will continue to operate where it currently does, even as it expands into Grand Central. http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6171/...c7d554e3_b.jpg ______________________________________ Meanwhile, http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2011/1...are_garden.php Here Now, a Sneak Peek at the New Madison Square Garden http://cdn.cstatic.net/cache/gallery...710595e2_o.jpg Wednesday, October 19, 2011, by Sara Polsky Quote:
http://cdn.cstatic.net/cache/gallery...058a04a3_o.jpg http://cdn.cstatic.net/cache/gallery...0ffeaa00_o.jpg Where the skybridges, called Chase Bridges, will be http://cdn.cstatic.net/cache/gallery...08e1c99f_o.jpg http://cdn.cstatic.net/cache/gallery...96a36617_o.jpg |
Hi, first time poster. :) I took a number of the photographs displayed above during the Open House New York tour, which was FASCINATING. An amazing, amazing building and an amazing, amazing transformation it's undergoing. I've posted more pictures an my write up of the tour/experience surrounding the building here:
Moynihan Station Tour Definitely an exciting project. |
^ Very nice. Thanks for the photos.
A few more... gsz http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6180/...8098e1c2_b.jpg http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6053/...dfea07a0_b.jpg |
In other Moynihan related news...
http://www.moynihanstation.org/newsite/ Moynihan Station development office to be folded into the Port Authority Juliette Michaelson October 19, 2011 Quote:
http://nycapitolnews.com/wordpress/2...-midtown-push/ Cuomo Shuffle Gives Port Authority A Midtown Push By Adam Lisberg October 20, 2011 Quote:
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According to the guy who led the tour, new renderings for a new design will be coming out by the end of the year. |
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Yes, Moynihan has gone through a variety of designs, none of them built. The transit hall itself has been pretty consistent though.
http://www.northjersey.com/news/opin...n_Station.html Herald News: Keep PA out of Moynihan Station Sunday, October 23, 2011 Quote:
__________________ http://www.newsday.com/opinion/edito...rity-1.3264114 Editorial: Full plate at the Port Authority October 21, 2011 Quote:
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The New York Times
After 16,000 Miles, the Rangers Skate on Home Ice http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...ticleLarge.jpg Barton Silverman/The New York Times The Rangers got a rare treat Wednesday: a chance to practice on the ice at Madison Square Garden. By JEFF Z. KLEIN Published: October 26, 2011 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/27/sp...home-game.html Quote:
© 2011 The New York Times Company |
Pennsylvania Station 1910-1963
" But beyond that, it gives the station a visible presence as well, something that it lost when the original was demolished."
For those who don't know about the original, see this: http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16934 "Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves. Even when we had Penn Station, we couldn’t afford to keep it clean. We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed." - "Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times editorial, October 30, 1963 (as found on nyc-architecture.com) |
Of all the buildings demolished in New York over its history, the destruction of Penn Station is probably the one that stands out most, and had the most impact on how we see things today.
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The 'malling' of Manhattan
http://therealdeal.com/newyork/artic...g-of-manhattan http://s3.amazonaws.com/trd_three/im...54/mall-lg.jpg Quote:
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The Garden kinda looks like the Coliseum (with a roof) during parts of the renovation time-lapse.
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^ Yeah, it's being done in stages over 3 years.
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2011/12...y-cant-afford/ Building a home for Amtrak they can’t afford http://secondavenuesagas.com/wp-cont...nStationSM.jpg By Benjamin Kabak December 28, 2011 Quote:
_______________________________________________ http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...oo-costly.html Amtrak Says It Needs NY Station That May Be Too Costly By Lisa Caruso Dec 15, 2011 Quote:
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/ar...er=rss&emc=rss
Restore a Gateway to Dignity http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...ticleLarge.jpg By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN February 8, 2012 Quote:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...ls-webPENN.png |
At the end of the day, the non transferable air rights that currently occupy the block that houses Penn Station and MSG are way too valuable to be left undeveloped.
Unfortunately the Dolans opted for a renovation as opposed to a move and a new arena. But with the snow ball pace of the convention center deal, the immense value of that real estate as residential, or mixed use of some sort, and the fact that MSG just finished their renovations, I really doubt that the timing would line up for the garden to move to where the Javits is now. With that in mind, a move to the Farley Post Office seems to be the most logical place. The Far West Side where the Javits Center is now, will develop into a great neighborhood on its own because of the immense amount of park space that will be built, some of which is under construction now. But that stretch along 9th Avenue could really use a boost like a new arena. I just hope the Dolans realize that the Far West Side/Javits Center site, and the Farley Post Office Building could be their last real opportunities to relocate to a prime site within Manhattan. But given that it's the Dolans, I'm expecting the worse, which is for them to stay put. |
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I'm so sickened by this waste of an opportunity. This article is years too late. I remember little outcry about Penn when they were planning that last deal and very little public interest or hype about it. Why bother writing this now? He's right though, the Farley is a poor excuse for a restoration of Penn since it will only process a small percentage of people. They better do something to improve the dungeon that is Penn if this is the way it's going to be for decades. Is there no other way they could open it up by demolishing another building or digging up roads? How about building a new station adjacent to the tracks on another block and have passageways connecting this new headhouse with the platforms for LIRR/NJT? Does anybody know if the original Penn had platforms/tracks open to the light? If not, all we need is a decent head-house for all to make up for the loss. Also, why don't they just take over the entire Farley building and use it for everything, not just amtrak.. it appears big enough if the annex is incorporated, no? |
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